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Wealth

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Fri, 2010-08-20 10:24

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Wealth

How should being wealthy be represented in the game? It is easy to make a hyperelite character, less easy to make them suitably rich. Obviously one can spend CPs to get a lot of credits, but that is not really the same thing - wealthy people should have stocks and flows. Here is an initial sketch for a trait:

Quote:
Wealthy (Positive trait, 20 CP) The character owns valuable assets: investments, Earth antiques, voting shares in hypercorps, land or habitat space, family reputation, patents or other forms of wealth. These stocks produce a steady flow of income. In principle they can also be sold off or mortgaged to get cash or services, but this is often both impractical and will be at a loss. The character has a yearly income of 100,000 credits, and a few million credits in assets. In the new economy the income equates to an extra number of big favours that can be called in without a need for refresh rate. The wealth tends to act as a social +10 bonus when interacting with people who know of it (but some are of course envious or see the character as an exploiter no matter what she does; here the trait acts negatively). One downside of being Wealthy is that the character is tied to the fortune: the authorities (and celeb trackers) keep an eye on her, and should she do something illegal they can at the very least seize the wealth. (The trait "Secret Wealth" would be 30 CP, corresponding to a hidden fortune untraceably accessible via the lunar banks) Another problem is that the fortune requires some work to maintain. Normally this is handled by employees and the character's muse, but from time to time there are decisions to be made. If the character is not properly around to do this the wealth might start eroding.

What do you think? Should we tweak the income upwards or downwards? I am sure munchkins see a lot of abuse potential in this, but they can always be defeated by a bunch of tax auditors and accountants. It is also interesting to consider the nature of the elite of the new economy: just because it is a post-scarcity economy doesn't mean everybody is equal. Rep doesn't exactly cover this either: the functionary in the Titanian Commonwealth who knows everybody and how everything works may not be famous, but she always gets what she wants. And attention is a form of wealth: if people are allowed to direct their attention as they like, they will (under a wide set of assumptions) lock onto a few people, creating a power-law like distribution - there will be celebrities who have astronomical rep/influence. While extropians might actually encourage this, I think many autonomists find such reputational inequalities deeply troubling - but very, very hard to avoid.

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Fri, 2010-08-20 11:19

King Shere King Shere's picture

Re: Wealth

My thoughts on this is (despite EPs character creation rules) is that its not a positive/negative trait, that one should buy and thus exclude other "reasonable" traits mainly due to point allocation. I think it deserves a new category of its own since its more of a class/lifestyle/career type. Its often I have seen players create dysfunctional working persons. example: a Policeman without skills in firearms, driving, administration & knowledge law. Sure that can be justified too. "Either you cheated on your police exam, had friends in high-places or your character is delusional" I liked the space 1889 "careers" , and I would propose one could uses that as a addition thats set aside from skills and merits/flaws. Careers were classified as government (including military and government officer careers), exotic (including hunters, explorers, adventuress), service (including servants and tutors), mercantile (including engineers and inventors), professional (including detectives, doctors, and scientists), or criminal (including thieves, anarchists, or master criminals). They had some basic requirements & in return rewarded perks, merits & flaws. Thus certain criteria is needed to take a career as "Rich snob" . Perhaps merits & flaws like Patron, social stigma (paparazzi magnet) , high rep and certain skills; arts, etc. In EP I think it should be possible to have multiple careers, if one fulfil their criteria -but that may also be problematic since they should have certain required upkeep & certain careers should be mutually exclusive. - Of course as a GM I look at the players newly created character & determine if It does or doesn't compute. If I think it doesnt, I ask them to reconsider some of their choices or justify a ingame explanation.

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[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/tc_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/exh_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/argo_userbar.jpg[/img] [i]"To find fault is easy; to do better may be difficult."[/i] Plutarch

Fri, 2010-08-20 11:33

Rhyx

Re: Wealth

Personally I like it, because there's a responsibility tied to the wealth which in turns create adventure seeds. It's like a ward in a way or like the significant other trait in many other rpgs. So I would go for it because it's the most elegant way so far to display those 200 year old bored Oligarchs that rule everything in the inner planets.

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[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/A_Rep.jpg[/img] 2 [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/R_Rep.jpg[/img] 7 [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/C_Rep.jpg[/img] 2
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Fri, 2010-08-20 13:27

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture

Re: Wealth

I like the idea of having holdings, artefacts, etc that provide a wealthy prestige (something that should be essential to hyperelites). I think taking an idea from Colonial times would be better suited though. You have X amount of value in tied down resources (variable based on how many points you pump into the positive trait) which provides certain resources for cheaper (reduce the cost category by one for the character). The key to this though is the character has a vulnerable estate they must maintain and protect (countering munchkinism). I would say that every hyperelite character should have this trait (as a GM I would make it mandatory). It would kinda like a Face in Shadowrun needs lots of contacts.

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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Fri, 2010-08-20 20:37

root

Re: Wealth

Arenamontanus wrote:
How should being wealthy be represented in the game? It is easy to make a hyperelite character, less easy to make them suitably rich. Obviously one can spend CPs to get a lot of credits, but that is not really the same thing - wealthy people should have stocks and flows. Here is an initial sketch for a trait:
Quote:
Wealthy (Positive trait, 20 CP) The character owns valuable assets: investments, Earth antiques, voting shares in hypercorps, land or habitat space, family reputation, patents or other forms of wealth. These stocks produce a steady flow of income. In principle they can also be sold off or mortgaged to get cash or services, but this is often both impractical and will be at a loss. The character has a yearly income of 100,000 credits, and a few million credits in assets. In the new economy the income equates to an extra number of big favours that can be called in without a need for refresh rate. The wealth tends to act as a social +10 bonus when interacting with people who know of it (but some are of course envious or see the character as an exploiter no matter what she does; here the trait acts negatively). One downside of being Wealthy is that the character is tied to the fortune: the authorities (and celeb trackers) keep an eye on her, and should she do something illegal they can at the very least seize the wealth. (The trait "Secret Wealth" would be 30 CP, corresponding to a hidden fortune untraceably accessible via the lunar banks) Another problem is that the fortune requires some work to maintain. Normally this is handled by employees and the character's muse, but from time to time there are decisions to be made. If the character is not properly around to do this the wealth might start eroding.
What do you think? Should we tweak the income upwards or downwards? I am sure munchkins see a lot of abuse potential in this, but they can always be defeated by a bunch of tax auditors and accountants. It is also interesting to consider the nature of the elite of the new economy: just because it is a post-scarcity economy doesn't mean everybody is equal. Rep doesn't exactly cover this either: the functionary in the Titanian Commonwealth who knows everybody and how everything works may not be famous, but she always gets what she wants. And attention is a form of wealth: if people are allowed to direct their attention as they like, they will (under a wide set of assumptions) lock onto a few people, creating a power-law like distribution - there will be celebrities who have astronomical rep/influence. While extropians might actually encourage this, I think many autonomists find such reputational inequalities deeply troubling - but very, very hard to avoid.

root@Wealth Are we talking about wealth, or income?

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[ @-rep +1 | c-rep +1 | g-rep +1 | r-rep +1 ]

Fri, 2010-08-20 22:34

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture

Re: Wealth

I was talking with my wife about 17th and 18th century England. This leads me to think of two possible ideas for a "Wealth" trait (though I think I would like to call them either a Class or Lifestyle trait). 1. You/your family are major owners of the vital resources in a traditional or transition economy and as such you are the single point of sale for vital items in many of the nanofabricators in the hab. Each level of this trait will decrease the cost of legal items by one level (example level 3 would make Expensive items, Low cost, and everything else would be trivial). Each level would be worth 15 points. 2. You/your family has inherited a large amount of money. Each level of this trait indicates the "durability" of your finances. When you make a purchase, if the category of the purchase is less then the level of this trait, then there is no change to this trait. If the category of the purchase is equal to the level of this trait, decrease the level of this trait by one level. If the category of the purchase is greater then the level of this trait, decrease the level of this trait by one level per category over this trait (example using a level 2 (Moderate) trait to buy trivial or low cost items would be free, moderate items would reduce the trait from Level 2 to level 1, High items would reduce the trait from level 2 to level 0 (ie gone), and you can't use this trait to purchase Expensive items). Each level would be worth 10 points.

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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Fri, 2010-08-20 23:00

Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture

Re: Wealth

imagine what the Fall did to the people who had some lot/concession/domain in what is now the TQZ on Mars or even on Earth. that would make a negative trait: Bankrupt The person who was wealthy found him/her/themselves forced to accept to be endentured The story seeds there could be: -regain lost weath -find who caused the bankrupcy, assuming it isn't oneself (even then, he could be resleeved from a backup uploaded before his former self caused the bankrupcy) -make a new life -change from old to new econnomy in the outward system

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Sat, 2010-08-21 06:10

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Wealth

root wrote:
Are we talking about wealth, or income?

Both. While they can certainly be separate (I might have inherited a Rembrandt masterpiece I cannot sell or make money from, or I could have a great salary but no savings) in practice they tend to go together. Wealthy people tend to have significant assets that produce flows of income. TBRMInsanity's suggestion for traits that make things cheaper is elegant, except that it seems a bit confusing to roleplay in the inner system - you still need to convert the cost rating into credits, and keep track of that one credit for the rich character actually corresponds to a lot of credits to the other characters. But both versions seem to work fine for outer system wealth. Bankrupt is a good negative trait. As a PC trait it has to be active: the character has bad debts and is in the claws of the creditors. He might be indentured, forced to do certain things (especially common for debts to criminals or in the outer system) or just give up all income and possessions beyond a certain minimum level until the debt is repaid.

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Sat, 2010-08-21 10:16

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture

Re: Wealth

Arenamontanus wrote:
root wrote:
Are we talking about wealth, or income?
Both. While they can certainly be separate (I might have inherited a Rembrandt masterpiece I cannot sell or make money from, or I could have a great salary but no savings) in practice they tend to go together. Wealthy people tend to have significant assets that produce flows of income. TBRMInsanity's suggestion for traits that make things cheaper is elegant, except that it seems a bit confusing to roleplay in the inner system - you still need to convert the cost rating into credits, and keep track of that one credit for the rich character actually corresponds to a lot of credits to the other characters. But both versions seem to work fine for outer system wealth. Bankrupt is a good negative trait. As a PC trait it has to be active: the character has bad debts and is in the claws of the creditors. He might be indentured, forced to do certain things (especially common for debts to criminals or in the outer system) or just give up all income and possessions beyond a certain minimum level until the debt is repaid.

You could isolate your wealth trait to just your home hab. This means if you want something for cheaper you have three options, 1. Wait till your home to buy it 2. Have the item shipped to you (and pay the shipment costs) 3. Suck it up and just pay of the item. My second idea was "stolen" from D20 Modern. In D20 Modern they have a Wealth Bonus (a measure of how much capital you can muster). Any time you buy something you make a Wealth Check. Succeed and you don't change your wealth score, fail and your wealth bonus decreases accordingly.

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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Sat, 2010-08-21 12:10

#10

babayaga

Re: Wealth

The way we model hyperelite wealth is through the Patron trait: your wealth *is* your patron. This includes being able to "pull strings on the character’s behalf, supply resources, introduce them to people they need to know, and bail them out of trouble" as per EP corebook p.147. Indeed, virtually the whole description of the Patron trait makes perfect sense substituting the character's "network of assets" for the "patron". E.g. "if the character asks for too much, too often, they should find the patron’s support drying up. Additionally, the character may need to take action to maintain the relationship, such as undertaking a mission on the patron’s behalf."

Sat, 2010-08-21 15:39

#11

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Wealth

I love the idea of one's fortune as a patron. It makes a lot of sense, and might introduce the interesting themes of who is actually running who - some glitterati are dependent on rather harsh wealths. Maybe there should be several ways a character can be wealthy, and the particular trait used will depend on the style of wealth. One rich guy at the party simply has an allowance every month he can play with, another is little more an agent for a big and opinionated inheritance, and a third just floats through life with doors seemingly magically opening for him. The real fun happens when they suddently find themselves outside familiar waters - the first guy finds he cannot withdraw money outside the asteroid belt, the second finds that his estate managers sends him bodyguards he doesn't want, and the third get truly confused when nothing seems to work...

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Sat, 2010-08-21 19:43

#12

root

Re: Wealth

babayaga wrote:
The way we model hyperelite wealth is through the Patron trait: your wealth *is* your patron. This includes being able to "pull strings on the character’s behalf, supply resources, introduce them to people they need to know, and bail them out of trouble" as per EP corebook p.147. Indeed, virtually the whole description of the Patron trait makes perfect sense substituting the character's "network of assets" for the "patron". E.g. "if the character asks for too much, too often, they should find the patron’s support drying up. Additionally, the character may need to take action to maintain the relationship, such as undertaking a mission on the patron’s behalf."

root@Wealth That is a really elegant way of modeling it. I think that will become my new way of handling vasty sums of money. Would the same work for being one of the highest ranking rep-owners for a powerful faction? The whole faction would sort of be the Patron, but their attention span is much shorter than compound interest.

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[ @-rep +1 | c-rep +1 | g-rep +1 | r-rep +1 ]