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Implant creep

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Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Implant creep
When you design a morph, there are just so many very, very good low-moderate cost implants. Even many of the high cost implants are no-brainers for combat characters. What this ends up with is either poorly designed morphs that have a limited number of implants, or carbon copy morphs. A tricked out ghost morph works just like a tricked out fury morph, except for some basic stat differences, and I really don't like that. I'm thinking about imposing some sort of implant limit, maybe maximum 5 extra implants. Maybe say that Firewall and/or their insurance won't provide for such extravagant morphs - let the players install the extra mods, but first time they lose their morph, they're going to have to fork up the cash again if they want everything the same.
Ramidel Ramidel's picture
Re: Implant creep
First off, that's a pretty big "except for." That said, A morph is a base template, and tricking it out for whatever tasks you want is the same as tricking out your car, plane, power armor or gun with all the best tweaks and modifications. It means you're rich, high-rep, and have a powerful bod. Morphs are equipment. If you want to discourage this, then make sure to remind the players of this age-old EVE Online axiom: "Only fly what you can afford to lose." Make them insure this highly-tricked-out and customized morph if they don't want to risk it when they lose it. Firewall will replace it on Firewall missions, but other than that, they're pretty much on their own, and insurance for something this tweaked costs money. Yes, everyone has the same implants; that's because implants are really damn useful. If people are buying up implants "just 'cuz," hey, their rep or credit.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Re: Implant creep
When you compare it to equipment, you get the same problem if you don't limit options. If everyone can cheaply kit their assault rifle with both a scope and a red dot sight, then there's no choice, everyone is bland. You don't get players choosing between marksman and rifleman roles, and that makes for a less enjoyable game imo. Players want roles, and picking a ghost morph for stealth and then the heavy hitter with the fury morph also has chameleon skin and grip pads, that's just a big dissappointment imo. The problem with "only fly what you can afford to lose" is that if Firewall replaces the morph as is, then there's no loss. I see no reason why Firewall would automatically replace any morph lost. To use a current day example, if you agree to cover an employee's own vehicle damages while on the job, and he turns up in a Ferrari, you're not just going to accept that.
Ramidel Ramidel's picture
Re: Implant creep
So make it clear how Firewall handles that in your games. "If you bring in a high-end morph that has lots of crap you don't even need for your job, we won't insure it" is reasonable. Be up-front about this. (If players want to do it on their own dime and pay for their own insurance, then that's their call.) And honestly, skills and ego, rather than morph and equipment, are the best differentiators between niches. Top-end equipment and morphs are easy enough to get, that's a setting thing. The only big place where there -won't- be much differentiation between characters' skills is with hackers, and that's because they'll usually be maxed Infolife; hole in the system, yes. But saying "you may not have more than x implants because I am the GM and I say so!" is not the way to go about this. It's arbitrary, it isn't in-theme with the setting, and it annoys the hell out of players. Plus, a lot of those low-end things really -are- stuff you want on every morph, forever (medichines come to mind); grip pads and chameleon skin are a "why are you wasting 250 creds on this?" if you're not expecting to use them a lot.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Implant creep
Smokeskin wrote:
When you compare it to equipment, you get the same problem if you don't limit options. If everyone can cheaply kit their assault rifle with both a scope and a red dot sight, then there's no choice, everyone is bland. You don't get players choosing between marksman and rifleman roles, and that makes for a less enjoyable game imo. Players want roles, and picking a ghost morph for stealth and then the heavy hitter with the fury morph also has chameleon skin and grip pads, that's just a big dissappointment imo. The problem with "only fly what you can afford to lose" is that if Firewall replaces the morph as is, then there's no loss. I see no reason why Firewall would automatically replace any morph lost. To use a current day example, if you agree to cover an employee's own vehicle damages while on the job, and he turns up in a Ferrari, you're not just going to accept that.
If that's the case, though, they may simply put him in another body. Oftentimes this will be the case anyways. When Firewall needs you, they'll will likely egocast you depending on where they actually need you to be. That often means leaving your body behind and putting up with whatever they sleeve you in, likely built for the job at hand. Also, remember that time is a huge factor when dealing with morphs. Sure, Firewall might be willing to replace your entire body when you lose it on a mission, but a new biomorph takes 3 years to produce, not to mention the time it'll take to get the implant resources you need together. Even when trying to get your synthmorph, they may have to special-order it from whatever company created it in the first place, as well as gathering the implants that you once had in it. It stops being as special a freebie when you have to wait 3½ years to get back what you lost.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Implant creep
My solution would be to cheerfully say "Of course you can get extra implants!" and smile evilly... In my book, extra implants = more things that can go wrong in interesting ways. Yes, standard implants have been carefully tested and are supposed to play well with most morphs and situations. But players tend to put their characters in situations that are very nonstandard or stressful. And while the implants might have been tested to not interfere with each other at Cognite's compatibility lab, that doesn't take into account running bootleg Vulcanian code while being subjected to unfriendly nanodrugs and the presence of Titanian medichines. I try to use my own complexity rules, so that the chance of interactions grows with the square of the number of devices. Sure, there is just (say) a 1% chance of anything occurring between two devices, but if you have ten implants that is 45 possible interactions and a whopping 63% chance that at least two have begun to interfere with each other. It might not look that bad that the chameleon skin turns off the firewall on the endos... until you sneak past the virus-infected server.
Extropian
Octomorph Octomorph's picture
Re: Implant creep
Overall, I agree with these approaches, but it's something that you should make clear could happen when players are creating characters, otherwise you'll get some mighty unhappy people when they never get to play with the toys that they've built their character concept around. I'd also agree that Firewall is unlikely to replace super tricked-out morphs (if at all). I tend to think of it more on the Delta Green end of the spectrum than MI6 or the CIA and as such it's resources are limited. One thing you could do on replacement of implants, particularly the more exotic ones is to force more roleplaying/interaction to achieve them - perhaps the only way to get that Neurachem mod is to perform a mission for the local hypercorp, with the implant as payoff (and who knows what other boobytraps/loyalty conditioning/etc added in for 'free'), thus spinning off a whole arc of storylines to be resolved over time. After all, simply running mission after mission for Firewall is going to get stale.
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Implant creep
Personally, I like being able to load my character with implant after implant. It's fun to create a superhuman posthuman. Besides, limiting yourself to ten implants or less isn't good; there are too many implants that are needed to be effective. Medichines, neurochem, enhanced senses, et cetera.

+1 r-Rep , +1 @-rep

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Implant creep
Another interesting limitation might be that certain implants might semi-permanently affect the ego. This is based on some of the ideas in the senses thread: in order to fully use expanded senses you might need to stretch your sensory qualia, or you might spontaneously develop changes in how you perceive things when you always get IR or terahertz information. Similarly implants like oracles might change the way you do face perception and emotional control implants affect how you go about your everyday emotional self-control. Your ego is shaped by the use of the implants, which means that you become dependent on them: after always having been sleeved with oracles you find yourself unable to function well without them. This might be a reason for not just Firewall but many other groups to discourage excessive implant use. It is not absolute by any means, but people with too many implants risk turning themselves into accidental exhumans.
Extropian
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Implant creep
nick012000 wrote:
Personally, I like being able to load my character with implant after implant. It's fun to create a superhuman posthuman. Besides, limiting yourself to ten implants or less isn't good; there are too many implants that are needed to be effective. Medichines, neurochem, enhanced senses, et cetera.
I don't think there's any implant that's necessary to be effective. However, punishing players for having a multitude of implants does have severe drawbacks. For instance, the best morphs with the highest point values become less worth their cost when the implants that they come stock with run the risk of interfering with each other. The remade has 9 implants, which would be catastrophic in accordance with a game like that. I think the biggest overall drawback is sheer value. Someone who spends all their money souping up their car is less inclined to get it trashed, whether it is insured or not. The same will likely be true in the future with morphs. People will probably be more paranoid when they are in their dream morph, and less motivated to take risks. That's contrary to the very goals of Firewall. Granted, insurance may replace your morph when destroyed, but a very advanced morph will likely take months to replace... and you're stuck with whatever you can get until it gets out of the vat.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Re: Implant creep
On the other hand, someone who knows their car runs a high risk of getting trashed won't soup it up above what the insurance will pick up. What will most likely happen is that players will prioritize in order to fit their most wanted implants, and generally not bother going above it because they'll lose it.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Re: Implant creep
nick012000 wrote:
Personally, I like being able to load my character with implant after implant. It's fun to create a superhuman posthuman. Besides, limiting yourself to ten implants or less isn't good; there are too many implants that are needed to be effective. Medichines, neurochem, enhanced senses, et cetera.
You're superhuman even with a limited number of implants - and the "needed to be effective" is plain wrong, since most campaigns the GM will tune the difficulty to match the PCs. I also think you're not looking at the consquences of implant creep - with all combat-oriented PCs having almost all combat-oriented implants, you're going to be carbon copies instead of having individual advantages that set you apart. Long term, you're also robbing yourself of the option to try different combinations.
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Implant creep
I think quite allot is squandered if there arnt any challenge, consequences or loss. Story, game, development, association & immersion. If everything is gained without any "real" effort, its essentially worthless. Its not punishment to add obstructions to the players ascension to god mode. To me, Quite allot of games becomes boring in cheat-mode (but fun in frustrated occasions). Allowing to much is ruining the game, at least for me (when I am a player). This is a general observation and is not only within implant creeping batmans. This problem is quite related to the excessive nano-machine thread- since its the same phenomenon in a different form. Most often caused by overzealous optimizing players & too generous Gamemasters. Rules are supposed to offer a "frame" of conduct & plausible consequences , to prevent or ease grief. Regarding the implants, Arenamontanus technological complexity rules, I like them. Perhaps something similar to the "mythos" mechanic from call of cthullu could be added into it.. Over cyberification & implant use would increase chances of "spontaneous" glitches, Mind warping, dependencies, addiction, infection attraction & vulnerabilities. Its may not be a good "fix", as munchkins would "re roll inept character" or revert to backups if they "fail" when optimizing their morphs.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Implant creep
King Shere wrote:
Regarding the implants, Arenamontanus technological complexity rules, I like them. Perhaps something similar to the "mythos" mechanic from call of cthullu could be added into it.. Over cyberification & implant use would increase chances of "spontaneous" glitches, Mind warping, dependencies, addiction, infection attraction & vulnerabilities.
I like to see it as getting trapped in one's gadgets. Individually they are all fine, but the mindset behind getting them and the sheer complexity of the system makes life... interesting. Not so much anti-tech karma as becoming run by the tech rather than the reverse. I guess successful exhumans manage to keep their goals clear to themselves, while many munchkins pursue too much and end up having to struggle against the side-effects of their ambitions.
Extropian
Octomorph Octomorph's picture
Re: Implant creep
The old Cyberpunk games from R. Talsorian had a Humanity Index and risk of 'cyberpsychosis' for people who 'borged up too much. I think that EP psychosurgery and other capabilities would be able to fix a lot of that, but glitches at the interface points of hardware, software, bioware and nanoware would seem very appropriate, particularly if you take the point of the designers and provide some branding and variation to the stock items.
weavermount weavermount's picture
Re: Implant creep
It sounds like what you really want is niche protection. You want a Furry more to play differently than a ghost morph. If that is what focus on that directly. Talk to your players and work that out. If someone took a furry morph because they want to play frontal assaults rig the game so it makes sense for them to be doing that a lot and give the ghost something to sneak past. If a player starts wants to build there PC in a direction that would creep into another player's role talk to the 2 of them and figure out what works for your table. Maybe invent a new combat to temp them away from the stealth mods. Everyone goes home happy. My plan be very generous with whatever people want on there morphs and ego cast a lot. Say yes to everything, let people play with all kinds of morphs and just bounce around the system. I think of a tricked out morph somewhere more like a weapons cache than something a player is entitled to.
Checkmate Checkmate's picture
Re: Implant creep
This is exactly the reason why Shadowrun's original designers invented the Essence mechanic. I'd suggest something along those lines, though it would require going through and classifying everything with an Essence cost.
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Implant creep
nick012000 wrote:
Personally, I like being able to load my character with implant after implant. It's fun to create a superhuman posthuman. Besides, limiting yourself to ten implants or less isn't good; there are too many implants that are needed to be effective. Medichines, neurochem, enhanced senses, et cetera.
I have to agree with you here. Eclipse Phase characters are highly advanced compared to people like us. While they are not exactly godlike (or even weakly godlike) their capabilities outclass 95% of the population, and it seems right that they should be played as such. Of course, the threats the characters face are also scaled up suitably.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Implant creep
Checkmate wrote:
This is exactly the reason why Shadowrun's original designers invented the Essence mechanic. I'd suggest something along those lines, though it would require going through and classifying everything with an Essence cost.
It's a difference in genre that's an issue. The cyberpunk genre deals with issues like loss of humanity in the context that it is something we should cling to, while the transhuman genre treats our humanity as an outdated concept that will become obsolete; Eclipse Phase deals with how humanity will cope with becoming something that is definitely not human. It's somewhat integral to a transhuman setting that you can modify your body without limits. Besides, it wouldn't make too much sense in context: why would someone be limited to how much they can cyber up a body in Eclipse Phase, when anyone can get a synthetic body that is 100% cyber (and in Shadowrun terms, would have an essence of 0 or lower)? It was justified in Shadowrun, and it really wouldn't be in Eclipse Phase. More to the point, you have to remember that your body in Shadowrun is a completely different object than your body in Eclipse Phase. In the former, it is literally you; when it is destroyed your character is fini. In the latter, however, it is equipment. It may be the most vital piece of equipment you ever purchase, but it is equipment nonetheless. Putting a limit on how much you can modify it makes as much sense as putting a limit on modifying your firearms, or on how much ammunition you can purchase. More to the point, why make such a fuss about it? Just like with any equipment, it's breakable. When I lose my custom futura, I'll be just as sad as when our team sniper loses his heavily modified rifle, "Delilah". If we're going to put a limitation on how we modify bodies, we might as well put a limitation on modifying anything and everything, or even creating some sort of arbitrary equipment limit.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Implant creep
Decivre wrote:
More to the point, you have to remember that your body in Shadowrun is a completely different object than your body in Eclipse Phase. In the former, it is literally you; when it is destroyed your character is fini. In the latter, however, it is equipment.
Completely agree, a very good explanation of the issue. There is a kind of essence, in the form of the biomorph requirement for psi. That has always irritated me. But there is no fundamental psychological reason why one would like to keep one's morph "pure" - you won't turn mad, inhuman or evil from having implants (but slightly mad, inhuman or evil people might get implants to make them more mad, inhuman or evil). However, some implants maybe should come with a SV cost? Having a killswitch installed might not be the best thing for one's sanity. Maybe this is mostly applicable to things that seriously change one's perception and thinking like Oracles, or to cheap implants that are not carefully installed. ("Keep away from those Cögnite knock-offs! A friend found that their skillwires download subliminal spam and buyware in your basal ganglia") In my 2320AD campaign I had another way of softly limiting cybernetics: it took a toll on the immune system. Having lots of foreign objects and even cells in the body required hacking the immune system not to attack them. This is not a major problem if it is just a few things, but as more and more of the body is replaced the immune system simply becomes a bit too accepting - various viruses and bacteria start finding an exploit and move in. In EP this is likely a smaller problem, but I still think it does occur. Your medichines are programmed to ignore any surface marked with the right manufacturer codes, so they completely ignore that nanite that happens to spoof them.
Extropian
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Implant creep
Could you not just add in a slight Disadvantage that simulates loss? Make it small, in keeping with the genre, but a noticeable annoyance. Something like: Dependency (Implant Type) (10CP): In the past you have had easy access to a Morph with particular abilities that you have begun to take for granted. When you are sleeved into a Morph that lacks the implant attached to this Dependency you receive a -10 modifier to all actions that you would normally gain a benefit to from the implant. This effect lasts for (48 hours - WIL). The conditions of this disadvantage are subject to the GMs wishes and should be discussed with your GM before use. As long as your GM is proactive in giving players such a disadvantage, for example when a Combat Character makes heavy use of Neurachem (i.e every single fight), then you should be fine. (Note I suggest this as a proponent of completly over-implanting any and all Morphs I have :p. My own characters Synthmorph is a custom designed Menton-like that costs a silly amount of CP. Thankfully my GM is nice enough that most play is centered around Titan so I dont have to go without it for long)
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Implant creep
Arenamontanus wrote:
Completely agree, a very good explanation of the issue. There is a kind of essence, in the form of the biomorph requirement for psi. That has always irritated me. But there is no fundamental psychological reason why one would like to keep one's morph "pure" - you won't turn mad, inhuman or evil from having implants (but slightly mad, inhuman or evil people might get implants to make them more mad, inhuman or evil). However, some implants maybe should come with a SV cost? Having a killswitch installed might not be the best thing for one's sanity. Maybe this is mostly applicable to things that seriously change one's perception and thinking like Oracles, or to cheap implants that are not carefully installed. ("Keep away from those Cögnite knock-offs! A friend found that their skillwires download subliminal spam and buyware in your basal ganglia") In my 2320AD campaign I had another way of softly limiting cybernetics: it took a toll on the immune system. Having lots of foreign objects and even cells in the body required hacking the immune system not to attack them. This is not a major problem if it is just a few things, but as more and more of the body is replaced the immune system simply becomes a bit too accepting - various viruses and bacteria start finding an exploit and move in. In EP this is likely a smaller problem, but I still think it does occur. Your medichines are programmed to ignore any surface marked with the right manufacturer codes, so they completely ignore that nanite that happens to spoof them.
Actually, I don't think it's necessarily an essence requirement with psi characters and biological bodies. If you'll note in chapter 12, they mention that synthmorphs modified by the exsurgent virus are fully capable of psi. I think that the problem isn't in synthetic bodies, so much as in our ability to build them: humans don't have the knowledge yet to emulate the parts of the mind that produce psi waves. Who knows... we may see future releases which showcase morphs fully capable of psi abilities despite being synthetic morphs. As for implants, I could see a glitch mechanic existing for prototypes and "overclocked" 'ware. For instance, you might have a level 3 neurachem implant that actually brings you a whopping +3 speed bonus when it triggers, but the glitch effect causes you to skip every other round (essentially slowing you down). Prototype medichines might be able to prevent a biomorph body from dying before it reaches 2x durability damage (2½x for synthmorphs), but will occasionally cause organic anomalies akin to cancers to grow occasionally while stabilizing the body, inflicting a wound that can't be ignored until the system corrects its mistakes. I also like Codebreaker's idea for a disadvantage tied to implant dependency, but I think that a mental addiction should suffice. Characters may (albeit rarely) become so dependent on implants that they may gain an addiction, causing them problems when the implant is not present. You might even get [Addiction: Body Enhancement], where your character is literally so entranced with the idea of improving their bodies through implant addition, that they start to have "withdrawals" when they find themselves unable to upgrade something (which would cause problems when the sentinel is on mission and nowhere near an implant shop, I'd imagine).
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
weavermount weavermount's picture
Re: Implant creep
I think there is could be a flaw give you the withdrawal penalties for being in morph that a minimum bonus to a stat. 5 point if it's an easy threshold and 10 if you need +15 or more.
Dry Observer Dry Observer's picture
Re: Implant creep
weavermount wrote:
It sounds like what you really want is niche protection. You want a Furry more to play differently than a ghost morph. If that is what focus on that directly. Talk to your players and work that out. If someone took a furry morph because they want to play frontal assaults rig the game so it makes sense for them to be doing that a lot and give the ghost something to sneak past. If a player starts wants to build there PC in a direction that would creep into another player's role talk to the 2 of them and figure out what works for your table. Maybe invent a new combat to temp them away from the stealth mods. Everyone goes home happy. My plan be very generous with whatever people want on there morphs and ego cast a lot. Say yes to everything, let people play with all kinds of morphs and just bounce around the system. I think of a tricked out morph somewhere more like a weapons cache than something a player is entitled to.
You know, I assume the PCs are bouncing around the system on a regular basis and that, unless they're located close to something critical (Mars, Earth, another focus of your campaign), they may not even be using their "own morph" at the climax of the mission. That won't always happen, but it makes playing a heavily modified form a lot trickier. I like the idea that PCs can get most morphs (aside from Futuras) relatively easily, but getting custom implants means you either get a morph that already had them, or you get them installed at the far end, recovery times and all. For certain minor advantages, this may be no problem. Perhaps your Menton gets medichines added after every egocast. But the more potent the tech, the more likely it is that you'll have to get it in an existing model, which means pulling a *lot* of strings, especially in a smaller habitat. And while really potent, high-level implants may be available in powerful morphs, odds are good that somebody had to actually leave that morph -- their normal home -- in order to let you have it. Probably someone with a lot of pull themselves. The more powerful and connected the former user, and/or the bigger your request, the more likely that someone is putting together this series of outlandish requests and is using them to track your team. Which is one reason Firewall may frown at some requisitions, even if they can be fulfilled. Remember, it's not just mere humans who are watching. A solution my "broken posthuman" NPC uses is to have burned a phenomenal number of Rez points on normally useless Traits that give him access to almost his full range of intellectual abilities even if wandering around in an unmodified flat. Then again, his backstory is that he rose from unaugmented human status beginning roughly a century ago, so burning a ludicrous number of points on resources that don't normally *do* anything makes a lot of sense. Another option is to have just enough money to have some suitably modified morphs (securely) tucked away here and there in various major population centers, ready to be activated as needed. But even if you hold immense amounts of wealth and rep, the more of these you have, the greater the cost. Then again, this guy mostly serves as an expert and observer. So long as he can meet his scientific and/or surveillance responsibilities, the rest is irrelevant. (*His* preferred implant? Emergency farcaster.) Finally, if your character is really, really good at some form of tech, and extremely original, another trick is to have tactics and designs for simple equipment mods in your head that you can employ whenever you settle into a new morph with relatively standard equipment, thereby enhancing its range of abilities without an excessive expenditure of wealth/rep or risking too many critical tech secrets.

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