Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

Gender Terms in a Postgender world.

14 posts / 0 new
Last post
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Gender Terms in a Postgender world.
First off, I'm not entirely sure that this topic is entirely kosher. If not, I apologize, and ask that a Mod delete/close it at the first opportunity. I have a problem. For a long time, I've had a habit of referring to members of forums I've posted on as "Guys and Gals", or "Lads and Lasses". However, since becoming an EP addict I've realized that could be considered offensive, and have tied to change my ways. I have, however run into a roadblock... and it's one that's been bugging me in-setting as well. Simply put, I can't find the non-binary gender equivalents for "friendly" slang. So here we go - Let's make a EP gender slang list, both of IRL words and ones we make up! Once again for clarity: I am NOT talking about slurs or derogatory language. That stuff is depressingly easy to find. I'm talking about neutral or positive words, signalling friendship of goodwill, like an Agender/Androgyne equivalent of "Dude".
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
"Homie" or "comrade" perhaps?
"Homie" or "comrade" perhaps? "Fellow Sapient" is too clumsy. Slang mutates so quickly, and is likely related to memetics too. I imagine that the disparate languages that flourish would make slangs mutate even faster. Shackle, Nova York, and Valles New Shanghai all speak English but their slang will not only be different ala West Coast and East Coast USA, but also due to language proximities. E.g. Shackle also speaks Hindi, Nova York (French and Wu), and VNS (Mandarin, Wu, Arabic, Hindi, Urdu, and Portuguese). So that will mix it up too.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Leodiensian Leodiensian's picture
"Folk" could work for the
"Folk" could work for the plural ("we're all of us good folk") but a bit weird for the singular. It might be worth consulting other languages for this; using a pidgin mix of, say, English, Swahili and Korean really helps sell the future culture IMHO and it comes across way more natural than when authors try to artificially invent future-words for their future-folk to say.
trismegiste trismegiste's picture
Interesting topic
"Homie" is short for homeboy afaik, still gender-related imo. That's funny because I have same concerns for in-game talks around my table and in french (my native language) it's not easy at all. "Comrade" from uwtartarus is a good idea because, perhaps it's not about the langage itself but about the polity/faction (I talk only for in-setting) "Comrade" could be used with autonomist/anarchist for example and in jovian/conservative habitat, old genders are still used ("ladies and gentlemen" and uplifts are refered as "abomination") On Glitch (around Neptun if I remember) perhaps everyone refers others as "program" (like TRON) :) And on Extropia, everybody uses "consumer" :) I tend to agree with uwtartarus about the rapid-mutation of slang in EP universe since each habitat has its own rules and habits with multiple co-existing official languages without any centralization in the solar system. Back IRL on internet, I find the term "netizen" very neutral. my 2 cents
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Yeah, a lot of human language
Yeah, a lot of human language has inherently gendered components, which make the singular gender neutral or neuter difficult. Plenty of names are the same way, which brings a complexity of personal pronoun use. I imagine this differs from hab to hab. Some might find it normal to address based on the gender of the Ego (if they know it), others may address based on the visible sex of the sleeve. And this is all based on English, too, so there's plenty of complication elsewhere (like how there's half a dozen ways to say "I" in Japanese, all of varying levels of formality and implied gender). It also doesn't account for tonal or context clues. It's too bad Latin isn't super in vogue, you could probably get away with "ave mea amicum", which would be something like "hail, my friend (neuter)". "Gentlebeing" is a term I've heard before in science fiction. "Beings" or "Sophonts" might work, but that seems very informal. I imagine in some habitations, people might just refer to each other as "Citizen" or however appropriate in their primary language. (On a semi-related note, if anyone takes serious offense to your colloquialisms, TWNW, they might be wound a little tight. You're a limited human, like the rest of us [For Now], limited by the tools our predecessors left us with. If you mean no harm by it, that's the best you could ask for. It rolls back around to tone and context clues - though the internet is shitty for that)
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
sysop sysop's picture
I'm really curious about what
I'm really curious about what will come out of this thread myself. Linguistically I'm not sure I can properly call this "slang" actually - it's serving the purpose of a plural-2nd person form or as a collective-noun. So it's a little more linguistically necessary than you'd think. Sort of like how the "Yeah, no -" phrase is actually meaningfully different than either a straight yes or a no - not an indecisive speaker. In OOC: I've seen some recent push to drop using "guys" as the generic 'group of people', because it has an implication of maleness for some audiences. (Not me, but back to how squishy slang is.) "Peeps" and "homies" both have cultural and regional connotations. As does "y'all". Though at least from me with my RL accent that one fits... (Yeah, I'm southern. We ain't *all* backwards. ;) ) "Comrade" absolutely has some big cultural connotations there too, though I appreciate the sentiment it's not something I'd use in mainstream groups. "Folks" seems safe, but it's not entirely depending on your audience... it's a word that's been picked up by a branch of Ásatrú (aka Heathenism aka Nordic paganism) as a code-word for "white people". So yeah... in the OOC: Tricky as hell and I'd love to see some good suggestions that could be pulled over to IC. In IC: Based on what I'm seeing in OOC - your local term for gender-nuetral-plural-you is probably going to be culturally dictated.
I fix broken things. If you need something fixed, mention it [url=/forums/suggestions/website-and-forum-suggestions]on the suggestions board[/url]. [color=red]I also sometimes speak as website administrator and/ moderator.[/color]
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Calling somebody "guy" or
Calling somebody "guy" or "guys" can also be inappropriate in context too - it can hit that perfect junction of being informal while also being impersonal. But that's starting to push us into the morass of etiquette in addition to grammar. We may wish to tackle the problem one element at a time.
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
jKaiser jKaiser's picture
Gonna stick to English for simplicity
Looking through the books again, I came across this: "Skinning can also be used for the opposite effect. Any undesired content of reality can be edited out, veiled, or censored by modern software programs or muses that engage in real-time editing. Tired of looking at someone’s face? Add them to your killfile, and you’ll never have to acknowledge their presence again. AR censorware is also common in some communities with strict religious or moral convictions." - EP 240 Which means that in all likelyhood, most communication is filtered to some degree anyway. I recall an earlier thread where it was theorized people might have their preferred pronouns, etc. on their mesh profile. Taking that a step further, I could see someone who likes to be referred to a certain way, or an environment a la post Revolution Soviet Russia where a certain title is enforced, simply having that as their audio censor tag. You can probably tell when it's being filtered, whether through a little audio bug or an incomplete censoring forgetting to mask the lip movement or something, and I would strongly question what this would mean for a lot of social cues. OOC, you could probably handwave any places you feel your creativity isn't up to snuff this way, since that would reinforce how ubiquitous the tech is to your players. It's probably a hell of a faux pas to fuck that up, though. Abuse of it could easily lead to "No, I didn't say that, that's what your fucking Muse said for me" situations. Ah, post-singularity teenagers are going to be fun... As for broad slang that IS heard, "people" is likely very common in English, especially in +uplift/+AGI habs. Maybe some shortening of "sapient" too. Sap (pronounced "Saep") has a bit of a ring to it, though it also feels a bit forced like so many other sci-fi slangs. I've personally pulled inspiration for Extropia from Sigil from Planescape Torment, with lots of bashers and cutters out for a bit of jink to cover their kip. Though that probably sidesteps the politeness a bit. Still, "slagger" has a nice ring to it if you want to out yourself as a biocon. I can't help but think that, given how thoroughly initialization and acronyms have entered our vernacular in the last century that another century and a half or so is only going to deepen it. We're already starting to see nested initializations, so that's probably going to continue. And then you have the delightful tradition of military slang, where phonetic pronunciations of intializations provide such a delightfully vulgar and descriptive way of communicating.
Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
I call most people I run into
I call most people I run into "Smoothskin". Sadly that only works when there's no uplifts or animal-based pods (bots are still smooth!), but 9 times out of 10 that's the case.
SquireNed SquireNed's picture
I think some of it depends on
I think some of it depends on the individual. For instance, I come from the Southwestern US, where terms like "guys" or "y'all" [which is considered to be more of a South/Southeast thing, but we use it too] are useful because they're effectively gender neutral as far as the receiving audiences. This is because we use a very loose dialect (and, despite having plenty of formal education in the English language, I am looser than most), but the region tends to be fairly socially conservative and say "suck it up, you know we meant you too".
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
"Gentlebeing" has been used
"Gentlebeing" has been used in an EP adventure or two.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Warning: Memetic Agent Detected.
Using modern terms like "Folk" is troublesome, simply because there's too much associated baggage/subtext. For example, calling anarchists "Comrade" maybe appropriate at some level, but is thematically linked to 40s American politics and the Soviet Union; using this in play will then transfer those associations to the Anarchist faction, and will shape the players opinion's and reactions accordingly. In the same manner, any habitat which uses “folks” commonly will almost inevitably become charmingly southern, known for their Mint Juleps and realistic Veranda simulations. :P Coopting other terms avoids this problem, but it's a nightmare stopping them from sounding forced. Jkaiser's example is actually pretty good, but would inevitably lead to me uttering the phrase "S'up Saep?", at which point I would be morally obligated to beat myself to death with a shovel. I do like the idea of mixing in terms from other languages, especially from those which are implicitly gender-neutral, both as a linguistic tool as an atmospheric element. Soo... does anyone here speak Finnish, Hungarian or Farsi? They seem to be good places to start plundering vocabulary.
UnitOmega wrote:
On a semi-related note, if anyone takes serious offense to your colloquialisms, TWNW, they might be wound a little tight.
Maybe, but I still feel it's worth the effort. Again, it's about dem associations; the more gender-neutral my speech patterns are, the more I promote gender neutrality as a concept. And worse case, maybe I can make someone's day a little better :D
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
jKaiser jKaiser's picture
Using the right terms
Using the right terms deliberately also helps out a lot in making a good first impression and showing you're willing to put some effort into accommodation, very important for your networking, protocol, and persuasion rolls.
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe, but I still feel it's worth the effort. Again, it's about dem associations; the more gender-neutral my speech patterns are, the more I promote gender neutrality as a concept. And worse case, maybe I can make someone's day a little better :D
Eh, see, your heart's in the right place. I personally think that should be enough, but you go be you. Thinking about it, I'm sure there are some terms which could be employed which are gender neutral - but carry other problems. If you say "What's up, my hominid?" instead of "homie", that only applies to humans, neo-hominids and neanderthals. It might even exclude AGI, since as digital consciousness they don't have conventional scientific taxonomy - or at least I don't think. You could move this to only excluding Neo-Avians, Octopi with a play on mammal, though you'd possibly bother some people in non-mammal sleeves, but that's not to helpful either. Plus, depending on context and phrasing, somebody could find referencing the mammary gland offensive or derogatory due to their prominent placement on human females. It could be very unique and maybe even funny to have some non-mammal uplifts or sleeves call mammalian ones "milk-drinker" as an attempt at an insult, though.
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/