Advertising jingles, Godwin's Law, and campaign slogans are all examples of simple viral memes. Somewhat more complex ones include The Game and Roko's Basilisk. Some people argue that religions and ideologies are examples of larger-scale memeplexes that can reprogram peoples' ideas (and thus, their brain structures). A lot of the Eclipse Phase level memetic risks are based on the idea that TITAN-level posthuman intelligences would be capable of creating much more complex, much more potent memes than we currently can. Peter Watts' novel Echopraxia includes postman entities capable of brainwashing and mentally reprogramming baseline humans using audio and visual patterns. Depending on how you look at it, stuff like Basilisk Hacks could be grouped under the "memetic warfare" category as well.

jKaiser wrote:

You're still a bastard, though. God dammit...

http://xkcd.com/391/ Which is also another example of memetics.

jKaiser wrote:

Very well-put. And I've got a new novel to read now!

eaton wrote:

Somewhat more complex ones include The Game ...

You're still a bastard, though. God dammit...

[img]http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=206329&type... Just keep this in your wallet and you are all set.

jKaiser wrote:

Very well-put. And I've got a new novel to read now!

It also pairs really nicely with Blindsight, the book that's very loosely its prequel. Vampires as an alternate evolutionary path, "vulnerable to crosses" as the downside to predator-optimizations in the visual cortex, etc...

Quote:

You're still a bastard, though. God dammit...

The solution, of course, would be to train your muse to scan for and pre-filter any mentions of the game before you hear them... But then, you'd never know if you're hearing the real truth, or the Muse-scrubbed version... ;-)

Akaja in Know Evil was an example of a high level memetic hazard. She was an idea of a character that takes over the story and uses it to kill her writer, and once she infiltrated your mind deeply enough, if you also got Hyper-mesh inserts and joined a human hive mind, all the ideas of what she was would percolate in your mind so that when you were separated from the group the ideas of Akaja would assert themselves and make you believe that you were not necessarily in control of your actions, but that Akaja had gained control.

I've been pondering how to put this for a while now, and this may still be rather rambling and nonsensical, so bear with me. And I may still be off topic, but hopefully this is still useful to the discussion. When I read this thread, I immediately thought of Reaper indoctrination in Mass Effect and what I've studied as someone who has a very vested interest in psychology and mental illnesses. And...well, memetics as weapons to me makes me think of weaponized hypnosis and very focused, blade-precise effects like PTSD, Avoidance Disorder, or OCD. In the former, the memetics are classic, but sophisticated propaganda. The oft-cited but seldom-seen subliminal conditioning, implanting ideas without the subject really being aware of it. This has been featured in fiction like Mass Effect and Firefly/Serenity, yes, though for all its horror or compelling nature, I question its realism and its fun factor for gamers, since no one likes being told "you see the Oaty Bars ad aaaaand lemme roll a whole bunch of dice for you because your character goes insane." But how this could play out in reality would tie into the other half, the precise application of aversion/attraction effects. Memetic warfare is all about changing how the subject thinks to a degree, correct? Well, from the perspective of someone who is employing them, being able to, via either subtle or overt memetic effects, instill a trigger for specific responses is at least one goal. I'm thinking of things like Soviet--era Color Theory, where because colors in the blue-green spectrum were evaluated as the most calming, they were used in hospitals and recovery wards, and became sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy. Likewise, look at how we're trained in iconography and graphics in systems like video games, learning to associate new symbols with positives or negatives. Meme-war could, with sophistication and subtle brilliance, present an overt message while carefully cultivating a secondary, more important message in the subconscious, like a positive or negative response to a certain color or pattern a la various forms of conditioning. I'm not saying that you could program someone to throw bombs at a specific building when you expose them to a certain shade of cyan in a triangle, but... Well, again, rambling a bit, but if anyone here is a Stephen King fan (or a fan of the Lovecraft mythos, which directly inspired this story I'm using as an example), the short story N. in the Just After Sunset collection is sort of how I imagine a memetic campaign going. Spoiler warning, but the story mostly follows a psychologist treating a man, N., who has severe, apparently self-imposed OCD and delusions about the nature of the world. It appears to be a standard case at first, exactly what he expects to see, but as the story goes on, he gradually notices a weird sort of consistency in the man's story, which involves numerical and pattern arrangements that, by being observed and imposed upon the physical world, strengthen the boundary between this world and that of a hostile entity. I'm doing the story a terrible disservice by describing it this way, but it's a fantastic example of how someone else's beliefs and, shall we say, memes that are so opposed to your own can winnow their way into your outlook and worldview until you yourself are following them because shades of doubt lead to uncertainty and uncertainty drives action. In N. it leads to obsessive actions to prevent something from being able to cross over into our world. In Eclipse Phase, it could be a simple noncompliance meme that gets under your skin and seeds convincing doubt into a populace, needing only a trigger to incite an uprising or riot. Like the Reaper indoctrination, subtle but consistent pressure can essentially turn anyone into a sleeper agent at the right moment with the right conceptual pressure. In reality and in the game, the particulars depend on the individuals involved, but like Jack mentioned, there's a tremendous amount of data being harvested constantly that would help a savvy memetic engineer craft their work specifically to target specific populations, or perhaps to greater effect, their outliers. The dread creeps in when you factor in the fact that, like many mental issues from PTSD and OCD to Narcissism or simple ignorance, just recognizing the problem does not mean solving it is any easier, and if a sentinel notices that prominent members of their home habitat are displaying obvious-if-you-know-what-to-look-for signs of memetic manipulation, convincing them that they've been affected in the first place is a challenge. And begs the question "how many more?" In an age of psychosurgery, forking/merging, brain hacking, asyncs, basilisk hacks, and so many other challenges to identity and memory, a skilled application of choice memes seems tremendously powerful, directly affecting belief, one of the cornerstones of identity and one most would cling to very tightly. After all, transhumanity might be smarter, stronger, and faster, but it's no less vulnerable to delusion...or tailored education. To pick the low-hanging fruit, look at the fear/security memes post 9/11 and the effects they had in American politics and culture. Anyway, that's the closest I can get to articulating my thoughts.

As an aspiring game developer, I read and watch a lot of material on game design and such. And Extra Credits did an episode on propaganda games ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP4_bMhZ4gA ). It made me think that if things like this exist now, in the future where simulspace living is not only possible but economical in comparison to realspace living, where habitats and simulspaces are entirely designed from the ground up...how hard would it be to avoid subversive or propaganda-like memes? How many inner system games exist where you protect yourself from the anarchist exhumans? Or outer system counterparts where you need to free people from the tyrannical hypercorps? Or the straightforward Jovian propaganda, emphasizing an interpretation of the soul as a meme to discredit the rest of the system as a whole? Or another branch of society which would be even more ubiquitous: advertising. The transhuman population is likely much more tech and content savvy on the whole than our own, just like ours is more tech and industrial savvy than our grandparents', which means, hopefully more discriminating tastes and outlooks. Unfortunately, that means more and more subtle efforts on the parts of advertisers to get around the rejection of obnoxious, obvious ads that no one likes, and around habitat regulations limiting the amount a given entity can contribute to the AR mist. Advertising usually need to invoke a change in direction, pick this product over the one you currently use. Propaganda is arguably more acceptable, since good propaganda memes build off what already exists. In the EC example, America's Army the game builds off the "support our troops" meme, a pre-existing concept that neatly focuses positive thinking toward the identifiable citizen-level soldiers while subtly acknowledging mistrust toward the upper echelons, and makes being a soldier fun, engaging, and accessible as a purpose or direction in life. Now imagine the Ultimates, the Jovians, local station security, and a passing scum barge, all uploading games focused around their specific lifestyles and benefits, even just honestly showing the good parts (and downplaying the bad ones.) How superior it feels to be an Ultimate or how free it is to be a Scummer. Isn't resleeving and uploading really kind of uncomfortable if you think about it? Don't you want to have a secure place and rewarding job in your own habitat? That's meme war to me. And much of the time, the most subversive, convincing memetic campaigns are the ones that aren't intended as such. The makers of a pro-anarchist and anti hypercorp vid or XP, or the post-indenture who's worked up to a comfortable, rewarding, and fulfilling career with a happy family and shows such through their mesh blog can honestly believe that their point of view of freeing and exalting the oppressed proletariat is for the best, but the end result is still propaganda, still memetic pressure.

Maybe x-risk memes could be easier to imagine if you think of some of the most successful memes in human history:

• Words can be written down
• Everyone has an immortal soul
• People have rights
• Races are different
• The Western musical scale

The more effective a meme is, the less it's noticeable as a meme and the more it seems like a fundamental part of being human. A new meme with that level of effect could be an x-risk, either by setting transhumanity onto an inevitably self-destructive path, or simply by transforming everyone into a species so different that they would no longer be recognizably human.

"You're awake."

trinite wrote:

Maybe x-risk memes could be easier to imagine if you think of some of the most successful memes in human history:

• Words can be written down
• Everyone has an immortal soul
• People have rights
• Races are different
• The Western musical scale

The more effective a meme is, the less it's noticeable as a meme and the more [b]it seems like a fundamental part of being human[/b]. A new meme with that level of effect could be an x-risk, either by setting transhumanity onto an inevitably self-destructive path, or simply by transforming everyone into a species so different that they would no longer be recognizably human.

Hypercapitalism ([b]emphasis mine[/b])

In the case of Akaja*, I would argue that she is in fact a memetic phenomenon, being an infectious idea, though she only affects users of hypermesh inserts. The memes that she comprises are: 1. Akaja is a character that behaves in (x) fashion; 2. Akaja is a real person; 3. I am Akaja. That last step is only possible because of the hypermesh hivemind, but the other two are normal memes. I'm kicking around ways to use her, or a similar "character" meme, in some scenarios. While a basilisk hack or a psychosurgial program are not themselves memes, they can be used to deliver memetic payloads into a population that could then spread. Or they could be used on a wide scale to render a population susceptible to a meme that they would not normally accept. For example, if everyone in a habitat is exposed to some implanted memory of a good experience with Grandpa, and then a certain person claiming to be Grandpa arrives on the habitat, they will be more likely to believe him. *For those of you who may not be familiar with this, Akaja Lacuna is from Caleb Stokes's "Know Evil" campaign, recorded for Role Playing Public Radio (available here; Akaja is in episodes 5-7 and 20). She's a phenomenon from the hypermesh-using neosynergists.

Anyone else remember the subliminal propaganda of "They Live"?

Here's a good one: "Peace Through Mutually Assured Destruction."

"Reality is a simulation." "Modify your ego to ensure Right Action." "Goats should be Uplifted, too!!!" This is a good thread, peoples. :)

"1+1 = 2" This is perhaps more suited to the Conspiracies thread, but a (not entirely related) concept I've always toyed with (and touched upon in a previous post) but never really used is the concept of social networks as Group Intelligences; in EP terms, the Eye network isn't guarded by Promethians - it is one. When you log in and make a post, you become an Agent in the ASI. This provides a compelling contrast to TITAN forced uploads. ... It's also why I don't have a facebook or twitter account :P I'll also take this opportunity to point at the wiki page for the Philosophy of Language.

consumerdestroyer wrote:

They're all about targeting a subpersonal you that will influence your purchasing decisions without having to actually appeal to "you"...

Like [i]children[/i]!

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:

"1+1 = 2"

Spoiler for Mass Effect 2, but man that reminded me of this conversation. A memetic virus that changes nothing but the way someone thought about the solution to a problem to a different but valid (or mostly valid) conclusion could have tremendous consequences. And with the ubiquity of digitized brains, AR, VR, and so on, there are so many avenues of attack to make such subtle changes. Transhumanity is immortal - any memetic agents can take the long run and work very slowly and gradually, painstakingly cultivating their modifications. Which rapidly gets into existential panic zone, since there's no telling how many other minor tweaks or benign perspective shifts could classify as cultivated or incidental. How much of "you" is really "you" as opposed to a reactionary set of patterns that can be adjusted with the right input and enough patience?

uwtartarus wrote:

Memetic x-risks are some of the hardest to develop. Bioplagues, nanowarfare, and spooky zone-tech is easy. But a memetic x-risk?! A serious head-scratcher.

A meme that causes many people to commit (permanent) suicide comes immediately to mind.

Arguably the plot of MPD Psycho is primarily about an exhuman memetic x-risk.

JKaiser, Wanna send me a link to it in a pm or something?

consumerdestroyer wrote:

Arguably the plot of MPD Psycho is primarily about an exhuman memetic x-risk.

I loved MPD Psycho. Suicide Club is another one that has sort of a hostile memes feel to it, too. I think the level of power memes have in MPD Psycho might stretch plausibility a bit for some EP campaigns, but if you could get your players along for the ride, it'd be amazing.

I don't think egobridge or skillsoft software tweaks are memes though, those would be actual neural editing with software (itself a terrifying possibility). Memetic hazards would be the popularity of certain movie/XP trends that coincide with decreased empathy with Ruster morphs, or an ad campaign to make Cognite seem more trustworthy because of the Egobridge technology.