kindalas wrote:

[color=red]I am making a moderator call to limit all further discussion in this thread to individual [b]replies[/b] to Posthuman Studio's announcement.[/color]

I hope asking for an answer to my question, though, isn't too much to ask. It kind of decides whether I choose to support the company in the future or not. Is this decision based primarily on the experience with outspoken members of said movement, and would a similar ban be placed if members of other quasi-political movements acted in a similar way?

TheDarkFiddler wrote:

kindalas wrote:

[color=red]I am making a moderator call to limit all further discussion in this thread to individual [b]replies[/b] to Posthuman Studio's announcement.[/color]

I hope asking for an answer to my question, though, isn't too much to ask. It kind of decides whether I choose to support the company in the future or not. Is this decision based primarily on the experience with outspoken members of said movement, and would a similar ban be placed if members of other quasi-political movements acted in a similar way?

This is and should be handled with the same tone and demeanor you'd use when a White Power advocate starts going on about how we don't celebrate white history month. MRA goofballs espouse the same cognitive dissonance and it really has no place here.

Just coming in here to express my support as well. Too much of the largest and most influential MRA groups nowadays are little more than toxic misogynists.

Looks like we have another winner. The problem, Kilvehk, with "judge individuals, not groups," is that membership in some groups is compulsory - you don't get to choose to be a member of the "blacks" group, or "women" group, and even something such as the "American" group, whilst ostensibly optional, is set by default and very very hard to change if you don't like it. Membership in entirely voluntary groups, however, such as "MRAs," is not so hard to change; simply don't claim membership in the first place. Between that, and the fact that every MRA we've had here has been monumental amounts of trouble, I see no reason with telling them to GTFO. Likewise with you. One-post-wonder, I bet, registered just to flame the admins for some reason. You probably saw this from some reddit or something, or were pointed to it by some MRA group, and don't even realize that Eclipse Phase is the [i]name of the game[/i], not the studio that produced it. I think we may need manual account activation for a bit. Sad day, but if this is just the tip of the iceberg...

[color=red] First off, reminder to everyone that this has already been covered by another moderator.[/color] http://eclipsephase.com/comment/45027#comment-45027 [color=red]And second, kilvehk, your first post on the forums and it's completely belligerent, not a great start. Knock it off, this is your first warning.[/color]

[color=red]First order of business:[/color] [color=red]Kilvehk that's two warnings in two posts.[/color] [color=red]Second:[/color] [color=red]This thread is not for convincing the PS+ team of anything.[/color] [color=red]Either you agree with their position and are welcome here. And you can tell the PS+ team as much.[/color] [color=red]or[/color] [color=red]You have questions and concerns about their position and the PS+ team will answer you if they have the time.[/color] [color=red]or[/color] [color=red]You are an MRA and the decision has been made. Your attitudes have been proven to be poison to this community and you can post on your own forums about "How you're not misogynistic but...." [/color] [color=red]If anyone responds to anyone other then a PS+ person in this thread. I'm going to be handing out soft warnings.[/color] [color=red]And if you are new and wondering who the PS+ guys are then they are:[/color] [color=red]Rob [/color] [color=red]Adam [/color] [color=red]Jack [/color] [color=red]and[/color] [color=red]Kylleran[/color] [color=red]Don't even respond to this post.[/color] [color=red]Kindalas[/color]

Just wanted to say as someone who ended up avoiding these forums because of those MRA assholes, I'm glad you've decided to take this action and will happily be a regular member again.

RobBoyle wrote:

Chuck Wendig posted a great piece that nicely articulates the same reasoning we had in banning MRAs as a group: http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2014/05/29/burning-the-mra-playbook-or-y...

...and comments for that article are closed (probably never opened)... no point in waiting to see what vile verbal abuse the MRA (and related people) will come up with. At this point, there is little doubt as to what those people will do with if given the slightest invite.

It sounds to me that you believe exactly the same as one of the "leaders" of the MRM believes. Which is the same as I believe, and I'm MRA. “I am a men's liberationist (or "masculist") when men's liberation is defined as equal opportunity and equal responsibility for both sexes. I am a feminist when feminism favors equal opportunities and responsibilities for both sexes. I oppose both movements when either says our sex is THE oppressed sex, therefore, "we deserve rights." That's not gender liberation but gender entitlement. Ultimately, I am in favor of neither a women's movement nor a men's movement but a gender transition movement.” ― Warren Farrell, The Myth of Male Power

As a kick starter supporter, and game I've only ever had positive and courteous customer service from the PS+ staff. Yet again you have exceeded expectations and grace as a company and team. Thank you. As an advocator of human (and animal) rights including men's health i cannot distance myself enough from the MRA.

psymin wrote:

It sounds to me that you believe exactly the same as one of the "leaders" of the MRM believes. Which is the same as I believe, and I'm MRA. “I am a men's liberationist (or "masculist") when men's liberation is defined as equal opportunity and equal responsibility for both sexes. I am a feminist when feminism favors equal opportunities and responsibilities for both sexes. I oppose both movements when either says our sex is THE oppressed sex, therefore, "we deserve rights." That's not gender liberation but gender entitlement. Ultimately, I am in favor of neither a women's movement nor a men's movement but a gender transition movement.” ― Warren Farrell, The Myth of Male Power

Not exactly. And I apologize to Lorsa and the other mods for making their lives harder after we said we'd not engage on this. I'll put this in, and if the mods need to delete it, or any other parts of this thread, to keep the peace so be it, but I wanted to offer clarification on, at least my, stance here. As I said not exactly. I don't believe that men, as a group, have valid rights claims. I do believe, because there is overwhelming empirical research I see every day in scores of journals, that women, as well as many other minority groups, do not have or enjoy the same level of equality in any number of issues (employment, education, sexuality, politics, and religion for a few examples) and that these groups are well justified in making legal, rights-based, claims in the courts, and legislatively, to secure these rights because they are currently being denied them. Not, as the courts have often found, in a de jure manner, though occasionally this happens, but in a de facto manner where we have established norms that allow for, and in some cases reward, discriminatory practices by one group against another. In this case, yes, absolutely, there is an oppressed group, an oppressed sex, and they are well within their rights to make claims to secure those rights. So no, this is not a manner of equivalence. This is a matter of justice. And in this case the preponderance of concern for those seeking justice should lie with those groups that have traditionally lacked access and equality, and who continue to lack full access and equality.

I picked up Eclipse Phase when it first came out in print, as I'm a big fan of the genre, and like the going with the CC license and such, but I really haven't followed it much since. With this announcement, EP has moved into what's been an empty list for a couple of years now for me: Must-Collect RPGs. Bravo to PS+, this is what we need to see to make things better.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:

I have to admit, I'm kind of... Surprised... Maybe "Startled" or "Alarmed" would be better words - at the number of people coming here to say that [i]solely because of the decision to kick MRAs off the forums and make them officially unwelcome[/i] that they're going to be buying [i]Eclipse Phase.[/i] Don't get me wrong: the MRAs are worth [i]nothing[/i] but contempt, derision, scorn, and mockery, but still - just because you hate them, does that really constitute a reason to pick up Eclipse Phase? I mean, I dunno about the PS guys, but I'd rather people were getting into EP because they like the spacefuture transhuman technology-oriented setting of Eclipse Phase, or they like the existential horror and fear, or whatever, not because we had some problems with virulent misogynists who self-identified as MRAs and decided to tell them all to take a hike.

It is a reason to pick up a game because of several factors. One of the best ways to show support for something a company is doing is to buy their stuff. Game companies are some of the best-positioned agents of change in the gaming community at large. The content of a game may be influenced by the attitudes of consumers, but at the end of the day, it's the company that decides what goes into a game, what their policies for their communities are, what is and isn't acceptable in official organized play, and so on. More money means:

• The more likely a company is to stay in business, keep making more good stuff, and grow its player base.
• The more likely other companies are to pay attention to what it's doing and emulate it.
• The more press it and its games are likely to get.

If you're sick of the way women (or any marginalized group) are treated in a particular gaming/fan community, voting with your wallet -- and being clear about what influenced your choice -- is one of the most powerful ways you can support companies who are making an effort to improve the community's treatment of that group. A company's values for their community are often reflected in their material. If you're a woman who likes games, for example, chances are you've had to deal with a lot of games in which the material was very clearly communicating that your primary purpose in their world is to be decorative. You may put up with material that suggests that your proper place is clinging worshipfully to the leg of a musclebound dude, because you love gaming and that game is what other people are willing to play with you, or you like everything else about the system. You may homebrew your own version that is less egregious. Or you may go search for better options. A company that draws a clear line in the sand about not tolerating misogyny in their community is also signaling that their materials probably don't involve automatic strength penalties and charisma bonuses for female characters. But most importantly: There's no One Right Way to get into a particular game or genre. Maybe you try a particular RPG because that's what your friends invite you to play with them. Maybe it's because you liked the cover art. Maybe it's because you heard there's a super-cool mechanic that you're curious to try. Maybe you found the rulebook at a garage sale for $2 and thought, "Why not?" Maybe it's because one of your friends worked on it. Maybe there was a demo at a store or convention. Maybe it's because you liked the name. Maybe it's because you liked the setting. And maybe it's because you heard the company did something cool and that made you interested in the things they make. All of these are legitimate reasons to try out a game. Attempting to be a gatekeeper is counterproductive.

Okay Kremlin Chiming in. Conditionally support the decision. depending on the answer to my below question. Question: Are PS working to help Bibliophile with his stress leave? And to help make him feel comfortable coming back as a poster? Anyway back to our usual verbal rocket tag over minor disagreements on the interpretation of obscure bits of the EP setting (I was gonna give props to my favorite sparring opponent on this board. But thought it might look like a PA)

RobBoyle wrote:

Kremlin K.O.A. wrote:

Question: Are PS working to help Bibliophile with his stress leave? And to help make him feel comfortable coming back as a poster?

Um, well we banned Extrasolar Angel, who was a big source of irritation, and we encouraged Biblio to take a step back -- we didn't want him to keep stressing with mod stuff, and we didn't want to lose him as a forum member. We didn't, you know, buy him flowers or anything. But we're in touch.

I'm 99.999% certain he'd prefer a book of some kind anyway.

No matter what's happened so far, I'm glad you're still around, Alkahest. And yes, I read the article.

Expelling MRM is for The Greater Good.

Alkahest wrote:

I'll just leave the following link to an old Eliezer Yudkowsky text, and it would make me very happy if people gave it a look: Every Cause Wants To Be A Cult

Cool link, but just because I have an EP shrine with a picture of the Posthuman Studios Quadrality surrounded by wreathes of glowing fibre optics doesn't mean its a cult—right?

kindalas wrote:

[color=red]You have questions and concerns about their position and the PS+ team will answer you if they have the time.[/color]

Ha. Ha. Ha.

The MRA movement has become an ideology of hate, and I am glad you are rid of them.

...aaaand I'm back. I was gone for a while for personal reasons, and when I wanted to come back I saw a lot of this crap and didn't want to come back. Now that there's a policy of actually excising MRAs from amongst us, this is one happy nonbinary trans anarcha-feminist.

Alkahest wrote:

If this is something better brought up in a different thread, I'll gladly drop it.

[color=red]Most of your post is only tangential to MRA so I would recommend the off-topic forum Especially since this thread is not meant for discussion.[/color]

Just wanted to chime in as well to say kudos to the EP team for making this decision. I teach a Rhetoric of Hate Speech class, and we regularly study MRAs as an example of how misogyny expresses itself in contemporary language. They deliberately skirt the borders of acceptable discourse, testing the limits of whatever venue they happen to be crashing at the moment. The only way to put a stop to them is precisely this kind of action. Sure, it feeds into their persecution complex, but so does pretty much everything. I've just gone ahead and made several EP purchases on DriveThruRPG. Keep up the good work and the great game!

Thank you! There's a reason no one sane considers him- or herself a "white's-rights-activist", and it's sad that "men's-rights-activists" can't or are not willing to see why there's a problem with what they are trying to do.

I was throw aback a few months ago when I saw the forum inundated by those MRA. Strike them, strike them hard with the banhammer! I want my good old forum were we discussed transhumanism and technology and didn't delve into retro-medieval chauvinist imagery.