Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

Why are asyncs so RARE?

53 posts / 0 new
Last post
Mon, 2014-05-05 00:00
#1
Blue Screen of Death Blue Screen of Death's picture
Why are asyncs so RARE?
It's been a little while since I posted here but I would like to run a PbP someday and I need the answers to some questions before I can begin. I thank all posters in advance and I hope any answers given here would help others with their games. Let me pose the question as a game scenario: Mary Brown is a happy biomed tech in the Jovian Republic. One day while investigating a dying comrade, she is infected by the Watts-McLeod virus. She eventually figures out what has happened to her before anyone else so far. She gets some minor derangments (paranoia and obsession) and some intellect-enhancing sleights. These sleights help her realize her comrades will gradually realize that Mary is an async. Once that happens, the best Mary can hope for is to be a lab rat, if not simply dissected. Mary will not escape the Republic. She loves her life and her family. So she develops a plan. The main reasons asyncs are so threatened, she reasons, is that they are so rare. With her new found drive and insight, Mary quickly and secretly cultivates massive amounts of Watts-McLeod virus cultures (possibly by cloning her own susceptible brain tissue as a medium). After a time, she has enough virii and access to be sure of fully exposing each of the million members of her habitat at least once before she can be stopped. Her hope is that when all is said and done, her habitat will be filled with enough militant asyncs that no one will dare threaten them. They will be a loving sibling-hood of kindred spirits, a extended telepathic family. So here's my question. What is wrong with Mary's plan, if anything? As I see it, someone, somewhere has got to have tried a mass infection of egos. Yet asyncs are still incredibly rare, why? Is it that the virus is almost impossible to spread, even by a committed posthuman agent? Or is it that the virus can only infect people with the rare combination of factors; the vast majority of egos merely carriers or simply immune? I welcome your feedback...
Top
Mon, 2014-05-05 01:09
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Blue Screen of Death wrote:So
Blue Screen of Death wrote:
So here's my question. What is wrong with Mary's plan, if anything?
The Junta would [b]nuke the fucking habitat[/b] before they'd let that shit stand. And not without just cause, because that's more or less an exsurgent outbreak.
Quote:
As I see it, someone, somewhere has got to have tried a mass infection of egos. Yet asyncs are still incredibly rare, why? Is it that the virus is almost impossible to spread, even by a committed posthuman agent? Or is it that the virus can only infect people with the rare combination of factors; the vast majority of egos merely carriers or simply immune?
Someone [i]has[/i]: the Lost Generation. [i]Every last one of them[/i] somehow got Watts-McLeod, which is impressive considering they were being grown in at least three separate facilities. They hunted them down like dogs. Remember, anybody who gets Psi 1 gets at least one Disorder, those with Psi 2 get [i]two[/i]. Each and every one of those infected people is going to be [i]some[/i] flavor of crazy; a lot of them will be the psychotic flavors of dangerous crazy.
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
Top
Mon, 2014-05-05 07:39
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
part of the problem with the
part of the problem with the MW strain is that it is too virulent. It burns up in the target to fast to be contagious for long. MW victims have been heavily analyzed and no trace of the virus can be found after word. Modern Ebola is a good real life example of something similar albeit deadly. it high mortality rate means that it kills a bit faster than it can spread under normal circumstances reducing the amount infectefd. I am kinda wondering what the transmission vector to mary was
Top
Mon, 2014-05-05 08:41
Maskin Maskin's picture
Any idea you have,
Any idea you have, Arenamontanus has likely already written about it - quite recently actually. I think you wil get some cool ideas by reading his thread about The Vectors spreading the Watts-MacLeod virus, or perhaps Mary Brown is a Vector: http://eclipsephase.com/vectors
—
Transhuman Mind
Top
Mon, 2014-05-05 12:35
Mandella Mandella's picture
There is nothing at all wrong
There is nothing at all wrong with Mary's plan. It's exactly the sort of thing an exsurgent would try -- and exactly the sort of thing that Firewall is there to prevent. After all, Watts-McLeod is still poorly understood (as is all the exsurgent biology, really). A perfectly reasonable complication with Mary's plan would have the virus mutate again (possibly stimulated by the population density of the infected), and revert back to the full blown Exsurgent strain. Or was that Mary's plan all along? This sort of thing, by the way, is one big reason why asyncs don't get invited out much...
Top
Tue, 2014-05-06 00:08
Killebrew Killebrew's picture
Mandella wrote:...
Mandella wrote:
... After all, Watts-McLeod is still poorly understood (as is all the exsurgent biology, really). A perfectly reasonable complication with Mary's plan would have the virus mutate again (possibly stimulated by the population density of the infected), and revert back to the full blown Exsurgent strain. ...
Very good point. Regular modern day viruses mutate at extremely high rates already and they are much more subject to simple natural selection, I can only imagine how much more dangerous the mutation rates and processes would be for any viruses designed by the TITANS. Perhaps that's the idea behind the WM strain, to create a slower infecting strain, infecting a large pool of people to observe it's effects and have an easier time keeping track of how it spreads and any mutations. Actually gives me some thoughts for how to use it, and for none exsurgent viruses that the TITANs may have produced before they left.
—
---
Top
Tue, 2014-05-06 02:11
Blue Screen of Death Blue Screen of Death's picture
My thanks to all and my
My thanks to all and my apologies. I had completely forgotten about the Lost. Also, I should have caught Arenamontanus' excellent idea. When ShadowDragon mentioned that [i]all[/i] of the Lost were infected, I got the answer to the question I didn't even know I was asking. See, at first, I thought that Watts-McLeod was similar to Leprosy. That is, most of the population is immune and wouldn't be infected even if they bathed in Watts-McLeod. But, if under ideal conditions for infection, all exposed will become asyncs; then the limiting factors are its innate difficulty to be spread and the fact that damn near every faction will prevent this from happening. This opens up some plot lines and closes off some others but now I know. Thank you again. A quick question now that the Lost have been brought up. In y'all's opinion, was the accelerated VR growth of the kids an [i]innately[/i] flawed idea or was it an otherwise good notion that was corrupted by exposure to Watts-McLeod?
Top
Tue, 2014-05-06 02:23
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
I reckon it's a decent idea
I reckon it's a decent idea that never could have worked out under a hypercorporate system, even without the complete cluster-fuck of every single one of them getting hit by the Watts-McLeod strain... But it could work, under better conditions.
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
Top
Tue, 2014-05-06 12:03
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
it had the best of intentions
it had the best of intentions but the psychosies developed well before WM was ever introduced into the mix imo. a byproduct of to much mental plasticity and not having enough time to properly absorb and reconcile expierences
Top
Wed, 2014-05-07 03:50
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
The Watts-McLeod nanovirus is
The Watts-McLeod nanovirus is the perfect example of why something doesn't need to be hostile to be an x-threat. The OP and first reply frame this nicely; The spread of async ability is proposed, and the first response is nuclear. All the virus needs to be is helpful, and it can cause widespread destruction. I have no trouble at all picturing alien species that wiped themselves out through async/baseline conflict. Even if Mary eventually succeeds, and transhumanity becomes universally async, all you need is a powerful async non-human to mind-rape the species into extinction - there's already an example in Gatecrashing, and it's a certainty that the ETI is capable of this. Maybe the pandora gates react to a high concentration of asyncs by emitting exotic particles to sterilize the system, or by establishing a mental link to the network's creator. I have a picture in my mind of colonies of asyncs walking into an open pandora gate - and not coming out again. Who knows, perhaps creating a mentally interlinked async society/organism is the entire point of the exsurgent viruses. [size=8]As a complete aside, I love the idea that the ETI exists within, or is made out of, the gate network.[/size]
—
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Top
Wed, 2014-05-07 22:55
Chernoborg Chernoborg's picture
Another thing to keep in mind
Another thing to keep in mind is that natural viral propagation models don't apply to the exsurgent virus. There could be an element of choice in who it selects for granting its benefits to. Everyone doesn't become an async because the virus doesn't want everyone to be an async. As far as we know these different expressions of exsurgent are hyperintelligent AI's running mankind through a maze to see what makes us tick. Everyone may already be exposed and any manifestations are just the virus asserting itself.After all what's the original meaning of the games title? Regarding the Lost, it's not clear when they were infected. Given that the experiment involved TITAN technologies right from the start they could have been exposed at the very beginning. If the kids were always async it could explain their early psychosis, they intuitively knew that their environment wasn't real. Or, if you prefer the renegade scientist theory , then someone has the ability to selectively infect others with exsurgent...a rather scary possibility!
—
Current Status: Highly Distracted building Gatecrashing systems in Universe Sandbox!
Top
Thu, 2014-05-08 02:01
Blue Screen of Death Blue Screen of Death's picture
Thanks to all for your
Thanks to all for your feedback. :-) I assumed the vector to Mary was the body of her dead comrade (who committed suicide after hearing voices) but, one way or another, it would have to be another infected brain in close proximity. In fact, you could call this a 'social disease', which lets me reveal why I called the character 'Mary Brown'. http://www.anyclip.com/movies/amazon-women-on-the-moon/reckless-youth-pa... I had always thought that the Lost experiment was doomed to fail and the Watts-McLeod infection was just the icing on the cake. Otherwise, every faction in EP would be raising crops of loyal cadets. But this gets me to thinking... One of the very best ways to introduce a newbie to a very detailed and unfamiliar setting (like EP) is to take an audience surrogate character from the Here and Now to 10AF. The Matrix movie was more compelling because it took Neo and the audience from the familiar 1999 (or so it seemed) to the 'real world' of the Matrix. So how do you take characters from 2014 into EP? Here's my thought: Some scientists believe that raising children in VR is possible but the hyper-saturated and complicated world of 10 AF is too much for the growing brains. After experimentation, which ranged from the Garden of Eden to Late 21st-Century simulations, it was decided that setting the VR environment in the early 21st-Century was the perfect mix of techno-literacy and reduced stress on the growing minds of the children. The typical protocol was to raise a crop of kids to believe they were students in an American prep school in, say, about 2014. At the right moment of maturation and receptiveness, the kids would be unplugged into a 2014esque movie set. There, under the care of psychologists and with very controlled protocols, the kids would be slowly brought to the truth of AF 10. But, one day, something goes wrong and a bunch of 'students' are accidently dumped from '2014' into the strange world of AF10. Let me know if the idea seems workable. I think it is a good way of introducing newbies to the game. Gotta go, I will try and add my thoughts on psi as a stealth attack later
Top
Thu, 2014-05-08 03:53
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Blue Screen of Death wrote:I
Blue Screen of Death wrote:
I had always thought that the Lost experiment was doomed to fail and the Watts-McLeod infection was just the icing on the cake. Otherwise, every faction in EP would be raising crops of loyal cadets.
That's actually [b]much[/b] simpler. Build or recruit a really, really good psychosurgery AI. Fork it a jillion times. Find the loyalest guy you can find with the best skill-set for the task at hand. Fork him a jillion times, have the psychosurgery system give him randomized differing character parameters. Sleeve into every spare body you've got.
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
Top
Thu, 2014-05-08 07:26
Rallan Rallan's picture
Another problem is that,
Another problem is that, because it was made by the ETI or the TITANs, you can't be sure that turning someone into an Async is all the Watts-McLeod strain does. Maybe it's designed to be a backdoor for alien Asyncs or an as-yet unseen Basilisk Hack. Maybe there's a second stage of mental and/or physical changes that have yet to be observed because the second stage of Watts-McLeod takes decades to activate and nobody's ever studied a patient that's more than a decade old. Maybe if the Async population reaches a critical mass [i]something[/i] happens. But nobody knows and nobody is capable of inventing tests to find out. So while various organisations are willing to study the strain under controlled conditions, and a few are even willing to recruit or create a handful of asyncs as analysts or field agents, even the most reckless of them (I'm looking at [i]you[/i], Firewall and Ozma) would completely lose their shit at the idea of spreading Watts-McLeod all over the place and trying to infect whole settlements. If they hear about a highly contagious mutation of the strain or an attempt (successful or otherwise) to artificially spread it far and wide they'll treat it like a high priority X-risk, because it probably is.
Top
Thu, 2014-05-08 08:39
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
Rallan i think the core book
Rallan i think the core book made it pretty clear that the WM was a mutation strand from from the original exsurgant virus or one of the many other mutations and everyone seems to forget that once MW is done doing what it does it gets purged from the hosts system. true something physical may yet to manifest but it dos not deactivate then reactivate. once deactivated the immune system would rip it apart.
Top
Thu, 2014-05-08 09:49
Rallan Rallan's picture
The thing is that they don't
The thing is that they don't actually know if it's gone for good, they just can't detect it. And even if all physical traces are gone, nobody knows what sort of information has been written into an async's Ego. Hell, they can't even find the stuff that's hardwired into the Ego so that it remains an Async no matter how often it resleeves, and that's stuff that they actually know has to be in there somewhere. Everything needed to spread the Exsurgent virus could be coded into an async, maybe to infect computer systems when an async has been backed up enough times, maybe as a Basilisk that will compel them to seize or invent the means of physically recreating the virus, or maybe asyncs who survive long enough will eventually develop Psi-Epsilon traits, go completely mad, and run amok like the deeply disturbed lovechild of Magneto and Akira. Or maybe it's just a one in a zillion fluke and they really did find a harmless Exsurgent Virus strain that was only made as a pretty benign experiment in enhancing human consciousness, and apart from being a bit psychologically damaging it's perfectly harmless. But nobody knows one way or the other. So until they do know for sure then the best course of action for groups like Firewall and Ozma is to eliminate every source of contagion, identify every async in the solar system, and have a contingency plan to kill them all on short notice if needs be.
Top
Thu, 2014-05-08 10:37
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
The Space Wizard ETI's made
The Space Wizard ETI's made the exsurgent virus, so I fall on Rallan's side when it comes to the "safe" nature of WM. It looks safe, but the numerous references to weird sensitivities sort of implies that it has indelibly changed the transhuman mind.
—
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Top
Thu, 2014-05-08 12:26
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
Of course the WM strain is
Of course the WM strain is still active! They wrote it in giant-ass letters on the front of every book!
—
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
Top
Thu, 2014-05-08 13:13
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
That's what they want you to think!
Naaah. That refers to the way that the Fall was really a huge society-level memetic assault, with the TITAN's actions perfectly calculated to drive the development of transhumanity along the lines the ETI desires. I mean, humans alter the genes of bacteria to make them perform specific tasks...
—
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Top
Fri, 2014-05-09 02:42
Blue Screen of Death Blue Screen of Death's picture
ShadowDragon, it would be
ShadowDragon, it would be worth having mass-produced agents if you could say lines like this: Military Commander: "This exsurgent infestation is very tenacious. Call in a few more divisions of Heather." But if is really cool to have a thousand of your best guy, why don't they do it (besides Pax Familiae)? I think the rest of you have explained the reason why you dare not be friends with a poor wretched async. It could be that the ETI intends that the asyncs be defeated. No matter how necessary, how righteous, it scars the soul to kill someone you once called friend. Over time, a meme of bitterness and remorse might spread through firewall, perhaps enough to shatter it.
Top
Fri, 2014-05-09 07:24
Kremlin K.O.A. Kremlin K.O.A.'s picture
It occurs to me that there
It occurs to me that there are multiple strains of WM. For example, the Dominant Strain trait shows that you have a strain that is not suborned by other exsurgent strains. What if someone spread this WM Alpha strain across the entirety of non Jovian space.
Top
Tue, 2014-05-13 06:11
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
While I feel that most of
While I feel that most of your question is already answered I will ask a tangential question. Why does anyone get infected [i]at all[/i]? According to RAW, the roll to resist infection by an exurgent virus is DURx2 +30 for toxin filters or medichines. I don't know why anyone would run around without medichines, so let's assume that everyone gets +30 (certainly true for players). A common Splicer has a DUR of 30, so that's a total of 90 to resist infection. Assuming you have at least one moxie on hand it means a 1/100 chance to fail. So, question is, why fear the virus really?
—
Lorsa is a Forum moderator [color=red]Red text is for moderator stuff[/color]
Top
Tue, 2014-05-13 07:04
Aldrich Aldrich's picture
"Common splicers" don't have
"Common splicers" don't have toxin filters or medichines, or they would be listed under the implants with the morph entry. Sure Firewall agents all have them, but that's to be expected - dealing with that sort of thing comes with the job description. I can't imagine that your average Joe in a Splicer or Pod has that kind of resistance. Though I will admit that a 40% infection rate doesn't seem as bad as the exurgent viruses are talked up to be. As an aside, if I had a 1% chance of contracting an exurgent virus, I would *totally* be terrified.
Top
Tue, 2014-05-13 07:56
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
Aldrich wrote:"Common
Aldrich wrote:
"Common splicers" don't have toxin filters or medichines, or they would be listed under the implants with the morph entry. Sure Firewall agents all have them, but that's to be expected - dealing with that sort of thing comes with the job description. I can't imagine that your average Joe in a Splicer or Pod has that kind of resistance. Though I will admit that a 40% infection rate doesn't seem as bad as the exurgent viruses are talked up to be. As an aside, if I had a 1% chance of contracting an exurgent virus, I would *totally* be terrified.
Yes, but 1% means rampant infection isn't very common. Which is good. Medichines is very cheap, so there's no real reason not to buy them considering the benefits. Not only will you heal injury much faster, but you can also get totally wasted an hour before an important meeting and still be sober when you need to.
—
Lorsa is a Forum moderator [color=red]Red text is for moderator stuff[/color]
Top
Tue, 2014-05-13 07:59
Killebrew Killebrew's picture
Sure, said player has a 91%
Sure, said player has a 91% Resistance rate. That resistance is per exposure, however. When there is an exsurgent virus present, how many times are they going to be exposed during their mission? And remember wound penalties since an injured person is more susceptible since their immune system is being compromised already, unless I'm remembering incorrectly and the penalties don't apply to that roll for some reason. And as Aldrich pointed out, the players are not the average person. Not everyone is going to have medichines. The morph that seemed like it was probably the next most common of the biological morphs was the Ruster, it doesn't come with medichines either by default. Look at it this way, how many people see the point in shelling out extra for medichines when they have such strong advances in medical technology? Most people don't know much, if anything, about the existence of the exsurgent virus (at least that was the impression I got). So if they get sick with something horrible, just shell out the extra for a healing vat and recuperate, since that's not likely in their view no need to pay extra now.
—
---
Top
Tue, 2014-05-13 08:14
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
I'm assuming that if you
I'm assuming that if you encounter the virus on a mission it will count as one "exposure". Otherwise you run into the problem with what sort of time frame to use when requesting a new roll. The rules doesn't specify and every roleplayer knows that GMs asking you to roll (until you fail) are just douches. Either leave it to one roll (potentially per strain if you really want to push it) or simply say that "yes you get infected".
—
Lorsa is a Forum moderator [color=red]Red text is for moderator stuff[/color]
Top
Tue, 2014-05-13 08:42
Killebrew Killebrew's picture
Lorsa wrote:I'm assuming that
Lorsa wrote:
I'm assuming that if you encounter the virus on a mission it will count as one "exposure". Otherwise you run into the problem with what sort of time frame to use when requesting a new roll. The rules doesn't specify and every roleplayer knows that GMs asking you to roll (until you fail) are just douches. Either leave it to one roll (potentially per strain if you really want to push it) or simply say that "yes you get infected".
Well, there are multiple ways that one could be exposed to the virus on a mission. There is of course the normal biological process, but then there are basilisk hacks, the digital form of the virus, and the worst of all, nanoswarms which doesn't give a resistance roll, the only defenses are guardian nanoswarms or nanophages. For the normal biological, I would personally only ever call for the one for the most part, but for the others it would be very dependent upon the mission. If the PCs go rooting through the systems or the other media around and stumble upon basilisk hacks, then I would call for all the rolls involved with that. I see it as a system in the same vein as the stress system, each individual exposure should be treated accordingly, I wouldn't make them roll multiple times for a single exposure, but there might be a handful of potential triggers in any given mission. However, that doesn't mean that they are going to roll a hundred times, but having 1-5 potential exposures in a given mission is not unreasonable to me.
—
---
Top
Tue, 2014-05-13 08:42
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Yeah... "Roll until you
Yeah... "Roll until you glitch" is shitty GMing, and worthy of the sharp edge of the core rulebook. Or the device being used to display it. Yes, even if it's a full-sized computer monitor.
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
Top
Tue, 2014-05-13 10:51
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
if i was running i wouldn't
if i was running i wouldn't do a roll to you fail but getting into zero g fight with lots of blood scattering around and they do not have respirators or eye protection i am gonna have a couple players randomly roll do to the bio fluids flying through the air and considering this is a system where yo are encouraged to kill players i feel no need to hold back on such rolls. and then there are any that might do bite transfers.... the key is to make the exposure seem logical and i for such logical exposures i would call the ascociated roll. have a nano hive in an inconspicuous air duct they pass by would be a dick move since thye have no reason to suspect it. but in glory for example if they did not get in covertly or if they entered into negotiations it would be a fair move
Top
Tue, 2014-05-13 11:09
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Rolling under 90 is easy when
Rolling under 90 is easy when fully healed, every accumulated wound and trauma drives that number down. Then infection occurs. Plus if the rolls are secret, you won't even know until it is too late. Not all exsurgent strains are "bam! deadspace blades and tentacle monster!" Some are subtle.
—
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Top
Tue, 2014-05-13 12:22
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
Everyone should have
Everyone should have medichines, though. Assuming healing vat rental is trivial cost, if you expect to get injured or sick five or more times in your life, the medichines are a better choice. Plus there's the side benefits (Like being able to sober up quickly). Also, the [i]existence[/i] of the exurgent virus is pretty common knowledge. Most people just think it's a TITAN nanoplague unleashed during the Fall. (See: New Mumbai) Most people also think they'll never be exposed, but for anyone who is sufficiently paranoid, medichines to keep you safe from that are a good investment. 40% infection rate is pretty terrifying, depending on what counts as an exposure. Especially if the victim starts out asymptomatic.
—
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
Top
Tue, 2014-05-13 13:14
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
I don't think medichines
I don't think medichines alone will actually stop a TITAN-engineered exsurgent nanoplauge, though. Medichines and a few implanted hives of Guardians, maybe. Probably also want Nanophages, just to be sure.
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
Top
Tue, 2014-05-13 17:43
thebluespectre thebluespectre's picture
Wait
Wouldn't guardian nano and medichine nano cancel each other out? At least the guardians would eat any other nano in your system.
—
"Still and transfixed, the el/ ectric sheep are dreaming of your face..." -Talk Shows on Mute
Top
Tue, 2014-05-13 18:00
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
way i understand it guardians
way i understand it guardians are either activated at your discretion or you program them a white list
Top
Tue, 2014-05-13 18:56
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Guardian swarms protect
Guardian swarms protect against other swarms externally, medichines only protect your body, and Nanophages only deal with nanotoxins/swarms that get inside you. So if you had all three defenses: a neurotoxic dart hits you and poisons you with BTX^2, medichines are going to stop this. Then a dissassembler swarm attacks you, Guardian swarm fights it, and after it eats some of your morph's flesh, the medichines will repair the damage faster than a flat's healing rate. Finally, if someone stabs you with Nutcracker, the cortical stack eating nanotoxin, your nanophages fight this off. All three may, conditionally, protect you from the multi-vector exsurgent virus, but in their own separate ways.
—
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Top
Wed, 2014-05-21 20:53
Justin Alexander Justin Alexander's picture
Another problem with widely
Another problem with widely spreading the Watts-MacLeod virus is that it increases a population's susceptibility to other exsurgent viruses (EP, pg. 218). Ethically there's also the issue that there appear to be severe psychological side-effects. These are considered benign, but only in comparison to a full-blown exsurgent infection (EP, pg. 220). Fundamentally rewriting the brains of a million people without their permission in a way that will permanently change their personality and inflict them with a mental disorder is really problematic.
—
The Alexandrian
Top
Wed, 2014-05-21 21:23
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Justin Alexander wrote
Justin Alexander wrote:
Another problem with widely spreading the Watts-MacLeod virus is that it increases a population's susceptibility to other exsurgent viruses (EP, pg. 218).
Nothing quite like paying for an "advantage" that carries enough mandatory, uncompensated drawbacks to completely cancel out the cost of the advantage and then more besides, right?
Quote:
Ethically there's also the issue that there appear to be severe psychological side-effects. These are considered benign, but only in comparison to a full-blown exsurgent infection (EP, pg. 220). Fundamentally rewriting the brains of a million people without their permission in a way that will permanently change their personality and inflict them with a mental disorder is really problematic.
Aye, that is ethically problematic. Practically speaking, there's the problem that [i]you don't know what form that psychological side-effect is going to take.[/i] It [u]could[/u] be as harmless as severe OCD or clinical nymphomania (with some folks, you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference.) With others, it's going to manifest as voices in their head telling them to kill people, or with severe paranoia leading them to be unable to trust anyone about anything. And that's quite honestly barely scratching the surface. See also: the Lost.
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
Top
Thu, 2014-05-22 08:16
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
and then you need to worry
and then you need to worry about what percentage of that population is going to go psi epsilon....
Top
Thu, 2014-05-22 09:02
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
I didn't think Watts-McLeod
I didn't think Watts-McLeod lead to Epsilons.
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
Top
Thu, 2014-05-22 10:44
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:I didn
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
I didn't think Watts-McLeod lead to Epsilons.
No it doesn't, but it's usually very difficult to know when someone becomes an async if it's just W-ML or if it's some other strain.
—
Lorsa is a Forum moderator [color=red]Red text is for moderator stuff[/color]
Top
Thu, 2014-05-22 20:55
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
mm I interpreted that as a
mm I interpreted that as a gameplay balance rule and not a mechanic in regards to epsilon
Top
Fri, 2014-05-23 01:57
Justin Alexander Justin Alexander's picture
The core rulebook says that
The core rulebook says that "characters infected with [Watts-MacLeod virus] gain the Psi trait at either level 1 or 2" (pg. 368). Note that this (a) doesn't specify player characters and (b) is in the GM-only section of the rulebook. A couple pages later, they talk about psi-epsilon sleights by saying "exsurgents have access to a third level of psi ability" (pg. 371). The combination suggests to me that only exsurgents have epsilon abilities (and the Watt-Macleod virus is not the way they get it).
—
The Alexandrian
Top
Fri, 2014-05-23 02:36
Aldrich Aldrich's picture
Mind Shattering
Given that even Psi level 2 comes with 3 (?) mental disorders, and that the effects of epsilon level slights violate the fundamental nature of reality, I would imagine that the psychological effects of using epsilon slights would utterly destroy the ego. So from a narrative perspective I don't see any reason why the Watts-Macleod strain couldn't result in level 3 Psi development, I just wouldn't allow it without completely shattering the character's mind (and the GM taking over control of the character, if it was a PC to start with). I would also treat it as one of those "so rare the whole plot revolves around it" events, so I wouldn't normally factor it into the scenario you guys were describing above. Then again, I've always read the effects of epsilon slights as leaning more towards "unknowable, mind-shattering cosmic horror" than "awesome space wizards"... but that's exactly why they're mentioned in the GM section of the book, so that you can tune them to the tone of your campaign.
Top
Fri, 2014-05-23 11:14
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
Silly me and here i was
Silly me and here i was thinking Asyncs are not exsurgants :P and i thought the discussion was in the direction of npc's not necessarily player characters so the epsilon restriction need not apply And don't forget that the book encourages viral mutations :) like i said Small percentage of the infected. something about their morph or ego would have to be on the outliers scale
Top
Sat, 2014-05-24 00:32
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
They're not rare in my game.
They're not rare in my game. The infection isn't that is - that's because there's a standard cure for it. They beta fork you, then delete the original.
—
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
Top
Sat, 2014-05-24 00:38
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
NewtonPulsifer wrote:They're
NewtonPulsifer wrote:
They're not rare in my game. The infection isn't that is - that's because there's a standard cure for it. They beta fork you, then delete the original.
That's... Not really a cure. It would be smarter to just make sure everybody has relatively up-to-date W-mL-free backups on file.
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
Top
Sat, 2014-05-24 04:09
Aldrich Aldrich's picture
Most asyncs don't know that they're asyncs
To go all the way back to the OP, and re-reading the core rules (pg 221), wouldn't a high proportion of asyncs not even know that they're an async? They know they're "different" in a profoundly unsettling way, but most don't know why, or even that they were exposed to a virus. And isn't Psi (ironically) relegated to the realm of conspiracy theory as far as the general public is concerned? And lastly, once the WM strain is done modifying the host, it disappears without a trace. Wouldn't these factors alone prevent the intentional infection scenario, even before you consider other entities stepping in with an antimatter bomb to prevent a mass infection? @NewtonPulsifer: how does beta forking somehow "cure" the async? The core rules are explicit that the changes that result in Psi powers are fundamental, permanent alterations to the ego and are preserved during copying or uploading. I mean, if you want to have a "cure", go for it - I would just expect it to take the form of a reverse-engineered viral strain, or something.
Top
Sat, 2014-05-24 11:40
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
Beta forks lose Psi.
Beta forks lose Psi. Which suggests that it could be deliberately psychosurgeried out or in, if a specialist had enough minds to experiment on to figure out how.
—
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
Top
Thu, 2014-05-29 00:43
Blue Screen of Death Blue Screen of Death's picture
I am pleased to see that this
I am pleased to see that this thread has gone on so long while I have had to be away. It has mutated, it has [i]evolved![/i] :::steeples fingers, mutters to self, "Excellent!"::: Thanks to all who have participated. I don't have really much to add, you all have pretty much covered it. But I will add my thoughts about rolls for multiple exposures to exsurgent virii. Here's how I see it. Any given source of infection has one, and only one, chance to infect any given individual. But with each infection, the exsurgent virus permutates slightly. That is, it changes its molecular structure slightly (the numbers of combinations is not infinite but can't be completely covered by any tech yet known to Posthumanity). So, George and Gracie, Mary's co-workers each roll once to be infected by Mary when she is infectious. George makes his roll and can never be infected by Mary in the future. Gracie fails her roll and is infected. And the Gracie has a single chance to infect George. And so on, and so on... Let me know what you think...
Top
Thu, 2014-05-29 01:20
Aldrich Aldrich's picture
Erulastant wrote:Beta forks
Erulastant wrote:
Beta forks lose Psi. Which suggests that it could be deliberately psychosurgeried out or in, if a specialist had enough minds to experiment on to figure out how.
That's a good point, but it feels a little hacky to me. I would imagine that changes the virus made to the ego would be profound enough that they could manifest again if the beta fork underwent sufficient personal growth, even if they appear to be cured. That, or I would just make pruned forks of psychic characters go various degrees of insane.
Top
Thu, 2014-05-29 10:27
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
Blue Screen of Death wrote:I
Blue Screen of Death wrote:
I am pleased to see that this thread has gone on so long while I have had to be away. It has mutated, it has [i]evolved![/i] :::steeples fingers, mutters to self, "Excellent!"::: Thanks to all who have participated. I don't have really much to add, you all have pretty much covered it. But I will add my thoughts about rolls for multiple exposures to exsurgent virii. Here's how I see it. Any given source of infection has one, and only one, chance to infect any given individual. But with each infection, the exsurgent virus permutates slightly. That is, it changes its molecular structure slightly (the numbers of combinations is not infinite but can't be completely covered by any tech yet known to Posthumanity). So, George and Gracie, Mary's co-workers each roll once to be infected by Mary when she is infectious. George makes his roll and can never be infected by Mary in the future. Gracie fails her roll and is infected. And the Gracie has a single chance to infect George. And so on, and so on... Let me know what you think...
i would say the nanophages or computer virii variant would have unlimited permutations since the nanophage can just take new building blocks from the environment and the computer variant is not bound by mass
Top

Pages