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Time, Growing Morphs, and Healing Vats Redux

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Scottbert Scottbert's picture
Time, Growing Morphs, and Healing Vats Redux
Awhile ago, I made a post inquiring why morphs take 18-24 months to grow from scratch yet can be regenerated from a head in weeks: http://www.eclipsephase.com/time-needed-grow-morphs-healing-vats The consensus reached, in short: 1. Brains need to be grown and can't be regenerated. This is what takes so long. Regrowing a body from a head is trivial, but growing a head in the first place is hard. 2. Healing vat bodysculpting includes biomods but not morph traits. It doesn't alter your genes -- added or modified tissue would thus either use your genes (less of a problem than you might think since said genes are just used for regular cell division and not determining your body's structure) or special genes unique to the implant. 3. Bodies may be scarce because there aren't many -- it's just taking the clone farms _this long_ to meet demands, or they're charging too much money. Or, they may not be scarce but require too much living space and resources (there's a note somewhere in the core book implying this, where it talks about what portion of transhumanity is living as infugees or in cases). I thought I had my answers, but a new problem just occurred to me: According to this, if you get shot in the head and your brain is damaged but your stack is intact, you're SOL and need a new morph. Does this sound like rules as intended, or are we back to the drawing board for solutions to the regeneration/cloning time inconsistancy?
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
Unfortunately it's a
Unfortunately it's an intractably nonsensical limitation. You can wet print a brain with an ego bridge but you cannot create brains as easily as the rest of the flesh? Wha? Nerve tissue isn't magically special. If you want it to be self consistent you'll need to change how your EP setting works from the books. The easiest change is to make it so you *cannot* grow a body in a week from a head. It takes much much longer. If you want an arm quickly, you graft an already grown one. This would imply implants might be a more involved process. Perhaps the process involves implanting a bio-implant and give it a couple of weeks before it is fully grown/functional (it finishes its growth inside the host body). Of course all this adds to the "Why doesn't everyone just have a flesh masked synthmorph?" elephant in the room.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
Scottbert Scottbert's picture
Well, the 'heads are special'
Well, the 'heads are special' thing wasn't in the rules or anything, just a fan theory to explain why regenerating is faster than cloning. Could there be another explanation for why regenerating is faster than cloning? -- I thought about it some, and have an idea of what direction an answer might lie in: Nanomachines' ability to print flesh is extremely limited. Healing vats provide raw nutrients and accelerate natural processes, as well as sustaining life. Basic biomods include (slow) regeneration. The healing vat just speeds this up greatly (just as it speeds up the growth of clones). A body placed in medical stasis immediately after 'death' can be jump-started and then regeneration takes over. Biomod implants are probably made through a process similar to 3D printing organs under development today, using nanomachines to guide the growth of tissues and then surgically implanting them. A pod is as close as you can get to applying this process to a whole body -- it probably works better for some body parts than others, and cybernetics replace the rest. However, this doesn't explain why you can't cut up a morph and grow a bunch of copies from it. Maybe you need enough brain, or certain parts of the brain, intact to control the metabolic processes needed for healing and regeneration? Even then, as NewtonPulsifier points out -- if you can impose structure and connections on brain tissue with an ego bridge, why can't you wet print a 'brain' that you then download a mind into? Just some thoughts.
DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
I haven't been able to find a
I haven't been able to find a good explanation as to why it takes biomorphs years to grow, but a nearly whole body can be regenerated in about a month from a single head. At this time, I assume it is an artificial restriction put in place into the game, by the devs, to make biomorphs rare (even though they are easy to heal). An idea I can think of is that you need a good tissue sample to regrow a biomorph, and lots of it. By using a fully grown head as a base, you have fully grown adult cells. You are not trying to age them from infant to adult rapidly, you are trying to replicate an existing design. This does not satisfy me as a solution though. Also reading the thread you provided a link to, its seems this idea was already debated. There is also an issue with how in the Rimward book, it mentioned that many biomorphs out there are equipped cyberbrains as opposed to normal organic brains. Any argument favoring biomorphs being difficult to grow because of a brain is invalidated in those cases.
Geonis Geonis's picture
My thoughts on this are as follows
My thoughts follow as such. Morphs retain the ability to live without an ego, but the ego gives it sentience. It does seem to me, that the ego is primarily consciousness, while the morph already contains most of the subconscious. An over simplification to be sure. As each morph regulates its own biological function, downloading an ego into will not change it. This thought would reason why a morph can be addicted to MRDR, but not effect the ego, as the ego has no portion of the brain copied that deals with those areas. All drugs effect the brain, just the ego doesn't contain the portion the drug effects; chemical regulation, heart beat, breathing, etc. Each biomorph has different under laying foundations. An ego just overlays on top of it. So, as to why the morph can heal is because its ability to regulate it remains intact, the brain, even with the absence of an ego. Why an ego cannot be used to create a new morph, following the same line of thought, is that portion of the brain is never apart of an ego backup. This portion of the morph must be built up during its growth could be one reason why creation takes a long time, and healing does not. There are interesting points, clearly I will think on it more and thank you for that alone. [b]The short of it.[/b] Egos do not contain a complete brain. Morphs ability to regulate biological functions must be built by scratch. Healing vats will cause natural healing to accelerate by assisting. Without a brain, morphs lack the ability to self healing.
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
I think the cyberbrained
I think the cyberbrained biomorphs of rimward just complicate things. My question upon reading that was; "So how is this different from a humanoid Pod morph?" Remember that the rules of the game and the setting are two different things and there can be conflicts. My personal opinion is that rules for medical nano, as well as the speed of nanofacture in general was introduced as a playability "feature" of the game. Personally I disregard those rules where they seem to violate the setting and my own sense of what might eventually be possible. I do agree that, in a game that features easy body swaps, writing a rule making healing from dead a triviality is a bizarre choice. I don't think the conflict is reconcilable. Either: A. Biomorph bodies take a couple years to grow and nanotech is not miraculous. or B. The cost of biomorphs, (ALL morphs actually), is completely artificial and not based in post-scarcity economics. Pick the one that suits the game you'd like to play.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Maskin Maskin's picture
A lot of the fun with this
A lot of the fun with this setting is the fact that the morph is expendable and personally I'd rather tone down the power/speed or availability of the healing vats to be in line with growing a new body (OneTrikPony's option#A). Some ideas after reading through the posts and EP sections on these things follows. Healing Vats According to the EP setting there is are several healing vats in every hospital, clinic, bodyshop and augmentation parlours, but the cost is high. Perhaps the cost is high because they “remain the most powerful medical devices in common use” and having someone occupy one for 2-12 hours for most damage means that nobody else can use it in that time. Even so I would want to make adjustments (I realise these are my own tweaks, but feel free to discuss/use): 1) Healing vats can restore recently dead who are mostly intact, but depending on the extent of the damage I would have this take several weeks or even months, and so be incredibly expensive. Much cheaper to just get a simple synth or a used biomorph. Restoring someone from just a head would be nearly impossible, but with enough creds/rep and the will you could potentially grow a new body, but it would take many months in the most advanced units and up to a year or more in less sophisticated ones and the cost would be quite ridiculous and certainly much cheaper to buy a new morph in most cases. 2) Restoring major lost body parts like arms/legs typically takes several days and is very expensive. 3) Healing less dramatic wounds and damage is most common use, but still has a high cost and likely to take up to a day. Note that basic biomods can gradually regrow lost body parts, but I would say this would be dependent on eating well and takes months to fully regenerate. 4) I would not make it so easy to restore implants, bioware and nanotechnology. Basically I would make it necessary to buy all these again at more or less their original cost, and each one would add time to the process. 5) Not all healing vats are created equal! This may be mostly true in the inner worlds where companies control rights to designs and blueprints. An augmentation parlour might not have a healing vat that can do everything a hospital one can do, because they haven't got the licenses for it. In the outer worlds this will be less of an issue, but there it might also be fewer healing vats so there is still a higher demand for their services than supply. New Morphs I note that from the book the main reasons people don't have morphs seem to be a lack of someone willing to help them out (hence why indentured labour to pay off sponsors) and lack of space and resources for biomorphs. The Economy and Infomorph Refugees (p.65) section states clearly that space and resources is in short supply for living biomorphs. New morphs will be expensive as you would first need an exowomb and then up to two years of storage, energy and raw materials to grow the body. I'm not clear if all biomorphs are fast growing like the Futura morphs, or whether their growth is accelerated through drugs or nanotech – you could leave both options open, but either way there is a lot of time and cost involved. With transhumanity busy recovering from the Fall and competing for the future building massive installations to grow armies of biomorphs is probably not the highest priority and so there is a lack of them and prices affected accordingly. Synths (the elephant in the room) Why don't everyone just wear “flesh-faced” synths? I think the answer is that a lot do – just see the clanking masses (whether cheap cases or synth androids). However, as I see it there are two major reasons why biomorphs are preferred: 1) Synthmorphs carry a social stigma as morphs for those unable to afford “the real thing”, and most people will feel that a biomorph is more natural. 2) Synthmorphs are more easily hacked than biomorphs, and this means they are vulnerable to another attack by the TITANs or even by traps left behind by them. A bonus 3) would be that some “real” experiences are only possible in a biomorph (certain emotions, smells, tastes and not least sex). Sure the synths can replicate it all, but often they do not and many will feel, rightfully or not, that the real experience of being “alive” or “human” can only be achieved in a biomorph. Even so there is an emergent synthmorph culture and unless something dramatic happens I would guess that their use and acceptance would be growing. It could even be a theme of a campaign as synthmorphs and AGIs fight for against preconceptions and demand acceptance (similar to fights against racism and sexism).
Transhuman Mind
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
I think the best way for
I think the best way for their to be a stigma against cyberbrains is that most everybody who had one on Earth was hacked and ended up joining the TITAN armies of the damned. The cyberbrain hacking can easily be handled, though. [i]Just don't network the cyberbrain.[/i] If you run everything in entoptic mode.... As to the "quality" of the experiences that can be a good in-world reason for synths to be unpopular, but its not supported by the setting as-is. I suppose if you want to give a mechanical negative to synthmorphs, just give *everyone* the stress penalty the asyncs get for being in synths. [b]Morph Fever[/b] "Asyncs find it irritating and traumatizing to endure life as an infomorph, pod, or synthmorph for long periods of time. This phenomenon, known as morph fever, might cause temporary derangements and trauma to the asyncs’ ego, possibly even to the grade of permanent disorders. If stored or held captive as an active infomorph (i.e. not in virtual stasis), the async might go insane if not psychologically aided by some sort of anodyne program or supporting person during storage. In game terms, asyncs take 1d10 ÷ 2 (round up) points of mental stress damage per month they stay in a pod, synthmorph or infomorph form without psychological assistance by a psychiatrist, software, or muse." Perhaps give non-asyncs stress damage every month also? Maybe not as much.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
jasonbrisbane jasonbrisbane's picture
I always thought that growing
I always thought that growing an entire brain/person taking years was a result of thethings such as "The Lost Generation", whereas just growing the morph has a genetic structure to be determined and the existing ego downloaded into it.
Regards, Jason Brisbane
Maskin Maskin's picture
I think status, bias and
I think status, bias and bioconservatism along with the TITAN threat and general vulnerability from hacking should be enough to make synths/cyberbrains unpopular among a large percentage of the population. I wasn't suggesting that synths actually have inferior quality of experiences, but rather that this would be a common prejudice (one that is probably gradually eroding as the clanking masses grow and spread). I like the idea of all synths having been compromised during the fall, and this line of thinking is supported by the setting as described in the book. Also remember that while the case is the cheapest morph most of the more sophisticated ones are expensive (only the synth and dragonfly are high cost), and compared with a case biomorphs are certainly more desirable. I don't like giving everyone the async stress penalty as that would basically force people to use synthmorphs only for short periods - although that could work if you want to make the setting even darker. Not only the clanking masses, but the clanking masses growing increasingly delusional with every passing year. Talk about a ticking time bomb... hmmm I might like this idea after all. I guess AGIs would be immune to this stress, but perhaps they would suffer the same stress in a biomorph. In this version Infomorphs will also likely suffer stress.
Transhuman Mind
Joe Joe's picture
How many wounds has a severed head taken?
I like the consensus originally reached.
Quote:
Scottbert: I thought I had my answers, but a new problem just occurred to me: According to this, if you get shot in the head and your brain is damaged but your stack is intact, you're SOL and need a new morph. Does this sound like rules as intended, or are we back to the drawing board for solutions to the regeneration/cloning time inconsistancy?
Short answer: No, just drop a cyberbrain into the morph while the biobrain is regrown, which takes about 2 years. Long answer: I think it's important to remember that wounds don't stop at Death Rating. If someone cuts off your head with a sharp blade but the medichines have stabilized both the body and the head, then you've probably taken at least 8 wounds (from full health to exceeding full Death Rating), and putting you back together would take ~3 x 8 = 24 days in a Healing Vat, maybe half that if the cut is clean and the GM is feeling charitable. If the body is lost but the head survives, that means that the effective wounds to the character are equivalent to what it would take to completely destroy someone's body: Say 10x Death rating. That changes it to ~3 x 80 = 240 days in a Healing Vat, give or take a factor of 2 depending on how the GM is feeling, or between 4 and 16 MONTHS. On the plus side, there are tissue samples for most of the body in the head ready to be harvested. On the minus side... THE PLAYER LOST THEIR ENTIRE BODY! The rules for the Healing Vat say that the head (including the brain) must be "stabilized" and provided to the Healing Vat, which would be difficult if the brain is splattered out across the floor. It could be assumed that too much of the brain is lost or liquified if more than 1x Death Rating (or 8+ wounds) is applied to the brain area (not including bleeding damage), and thus a replacement brain must be grown as discussed above. Otherwise, it's 'only' a matter of massive tearing of the brain tissue, which can be repaired (though everything must line back up EXACTLY for the brain to work correctly again) so it's still 3x wounds in days (up to 8 wounds) or up to 24 days, to fix just the head shot. But with the head shot, the character can have a cyberbrain installed and continue to use his morph (after about a week to heal the trauma to the rest of the head) while the biobrain is being fixed separately. As far as needing to re-purchase all the morph's implants, I think the dev's had in mind that a license was purchased to use each implant, which is then attached to the morph, similar to how software licenses can be purchased and transferred today. Since it can be assumed that each implant is customized to fit each morph (physically and genetically), it becomes unreasonable to remove the physical implant from the remains of one morph and install that same physical implant into another morph. Since the head, and really the brain, are the most difficult to regrow, and thus what can be defined as the controlling portion of the morph, ownership of the morph's implant licenses remain associated with the remains of the brain, and can just be added back in if major portions of the rest of the body are lost. If the owner of the morph decides to remove the implant and sell it or transfer it to another morph, the implant is then removed from the old morph and a new one is 'grown' for/in the new morph. ...Which would imply that if an autonomist with some bootleg implants is scanned in a hypercorp territory and found to have unlicensed implants, their morph might be impounded and legal action taken to obtain compensation for the IP owners. -Joe
Scottbert Scottbert's picture
A quick note: I'm not so much
A quick note: I'm not so much saying 'fix this rule' as I am asking 'What in EP tech can explain it, with minimal rules repercussions?
Joe wrote:
Short answer: No, just drop a cyberbrain into the morph while the biobrain is regrown, which takes about 2 years.
I kind of like that idea. I didn't think of using cyberbrains to replace lost brains. This way your whole body's not a loss just because of a headshot, and yet we have a reason for the healing/cloning disparity (even if I kind of question the inability to print brains with EP tech) This implies that brainless (not just mindless) clones can be grown quickly -- thus it is the stigma against pods and the need for living space that keeps morphs so expensive. Still, that's less of a change to the setting than cutting morphs up and regenerating the pieces to mass-produce biomorphs. Cyberbrains allowing for quick morph recovery from such injuries is a good idea, but I do wonder if there's anything in EP tech that could justify the original seeming-contradiction. Perhaps not, but someone may surprise me yet!
Joe Joe's picture
Guessing at the dev's intentions
So my understanding of how the brain works (which is no doubt infantile and horribly wrong) is that there are certain areas of the brain which are designed to interact with the body to accomplish stuff. For example there is the motor center, the visual cortex, the frontal lobes for logic, and structures like the hippocampus for memory. This can be seen in people who have brain damage and are no longer able to function in a specific way, like can't talk or can't see, etc. But their personality is still the same. I am guessing that the dev's decided that genetics contributes to the efficiency of certain abilities, which they grouped into the Int, Cog, Sav, Coo, etc, which each morph's brain and body may be better or worse at than others (thus the morph bonuses and penalties), kind of like how a computer may have more or faster memory, or have a better processor, or a better keyboard. They then separated those bonuses from the personality of the Ego, which has its base stats and associated skills. Sticking with the computer model of thinking, the personality or ego of the character would then be the software. So 'loading' the ego into the biomorph would involve ?chemically? wiping the morph's old memories, somehow (waving of hands) putting the new personality's memories in (memories are thought to be stored by proteins in certain cells in the brain, not the cells making contact in different combinations), and then rewiring the personality centers and skill centers (more handwaving) which would involve a combination of some synapse manipulation and some additional 'memory' manipulation. I think the thought is that much of the handwaving involves a very small portion of the brain, and most of that is around the protein side as opposed to physically moving the synapses (brain cells) around. If the whole memory thing could be done with something like artificially induced hypnosis, where the brain is able to record the memories at a continuous extremely high speed from some nano-logical (handwaving) source, or maybe a direct link into the memory centers to get them to record the memories at high speed, then the brain itself would do all the work of 'uploading' the memory side of the ego itself, and all that would be left is some nanobots switching a few hundred thousand neuron connections around so that everything sync's up properly. (Can you see me waving from here? My arms are getting tired... :P ) But now the ego awakes and it must 'work' in this new brain and body. The memory center, personality centers, and other areas of the brain are similar but still different from what the ego was used to in the old morph, so there is an adjustment period and the chance for ego rejection or (partial) collapse, as is reflected in the integration and alienation tests. However, rewiring some of the connections in the brain for the personality vs. creating a brain from scratch are two very different things. I think what the dev's were trying to propose was that humanity doesn't yet know enough to take 100's of billions of neurons and get them all adjusted to their specific types and sub-types, then get them organized in the correct locations, and then connect them all up in the right manner, all without allowing them to randomly decide to make lots of extra connections over here while you're fiddling around over there which would cause short circuits and failure. Or maybe humanity does know how to do this, but, wow, that's complicated, and they'd rather not waste their time when it's cheaper and easier to grow a brain from scratch and let genetics do all that organization for them. Much harder compared to, say, growing some muscle, which would involve growing a bunch of muscle cells, getting them aligned and connected in the desired shape, threading through some nerve cells, threading through a bunch of blood vessels, some other stuff I don't know about (my arms are too tired), and finally hooking the muscle up to some tendon material. Or 'growing' bone, which would be more about using a 3d printer to make the calcium and (there's an elastic portion too which I don't know the name of) part, then lacing the bone with a bunch of bone marrow and blood vessels and hooking it up to the tendons, ligaments and other joint stuff. This is all a guess. -Joe
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
Super-fast healing vats have
Super-fast healing vats have huge implication problems. Some of this was covered in this thread: http://eclipsephase.com/how-much-water-does-habitat-need-have-hand A healing vat has a 400x productivity advantage in terms of space to modern day corn farming. And for an investment cost of around 500 credits (probably more like 800 credits - a Dr. Bot is [High] cost but probably closer to the [Expensive] side of things), someone can eat their choice of food for the rest of their life grown from a healing vat (and keep in mind things like filet mignon have a 20x value advantage over grains in modern value). So super-productive healing vats that cost 5,000 credits have huge implications just beyond morph availability. And as for a pod is just a brainless clone with a cyberbrain - why can't I get a splicer pod for less than 5,000 credits? Should be waaaaay cheaper, right? EDIT: In my EP Universe Healing Vats cost 125,000 credits and are slower than the "Healing Vat Table" times in the core book. EDIT2: To reiterate : Unfortunately it's an intractably nonsensical limitation.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
Scottbert Scottbert's picture
NewtonPulsifer wrote:(stuff
NewtonPulsifer wrote:
(stuff about how you can use healing vats to grow meat) And as for a pod is just a brainless clone with a cyberbrain - why can't I get a splicer pod for less than 5,000 credits? Should be waaaaay cheaper, right?
Something like this is probably exactly how meat is made in EP. Actually farmed-and-slaughtered-cows would be something only the hyperrich can afford. Still, in PC habitats, such technology will only be available to licensed foodgrowers and not to the populace at large, even if they have 20,000 credits. And Splicers already cost the same as both Worker and Pleasure Pods, even though the pods are mechanically better (except for the risks of cyberbrains) -- this explains why!
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
If a pod morph is basically a
If a pod morph is basically a cyberbrained Exalt for 1/4th the price, that implies the speed difference between growing a morph with a brain and one without is in that ballpark. It's not, however. So no it still doesn't make economic sense.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto