Speed and Extra Actions

Sat, 2009-09-12 11:56

#2

Tearlach

Afaik, you cannot use

Afaik, you cannot use multi-tasking togheter with other speed enhancements. You should probably reread the text on both implants again.

Sat, 2009-09-12 12:32

#3

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Not sure about that one

Not sure about that one Tearlach. The description says other Augmentations that give extra actions. Neurachem gives extra Action Phases. Different things. Plus the Mental Speed description, which has the same limitation, gives Multi-Tasking as the example.

Also note that it says Augmentations. You can still stack actions using Psi. So, for example, I could do the following:

Psi(1), Multitasking Sleight, Time Sense Sleight
NeuraChem, Mental Speed, Reflex Boosters

So in total I would have 4 Action Phases, and in each of those Action Phases I would be able to take 4 Complex Actions (3 of which must be Mental/Mesh). The last Action Phase would be all Mental/Mesh because of Time Sense limitations. And then to be really cheesy you stack your brain full of Ghostrider Modules, each with a Beta Fork. Psychotrain them to be subserviant to your primary personality, give them access to your Mesh Inserts and you become a Mesh God.

(To be SUPER Cheesy, you can grant the GhostRiders access to all of your Implants, giving each of them extra Complex Actions/Action Phases. Alas, the Modules are Cyberwear so I would not think they could use your Psi, but still they can be super powered)

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Sat, 2009-09-12 14:14

#4

Moon-Hawk

I think this works.

Well, everything up until the first time you say "cheesy," anyway. After that you're starting to earn some dirty looks from the GM, but it looks to me like your primary example works just fine.

There is definitely a distinction between adding actions during a phase, and adding phases during a turn.

One could argue that sleights are augmentations, as they do augment your abilities in a grammatical sense, but "augmentations" really does seem to be a game-term which does not seem to include psi, so I think you're right in your interpretation.

In specific response to your cheesiness, if I were your GM I'd probably cut you off after just one ghostrider module, and I don't think I'd let your ghostriding fork use your cyberware either. But really, at that point you probably have enough actions, and if you were any more powerful than that you'd be due for a humbling encounter with the exsurgent virus anyway. ;-)

Thanks for your example, it definitely cleared a few things up for me.

Sat, 2009-09-12 14:22

#5

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Yeah, the other stuff really

Yeah, the other stuff really is just for fun, I don't really expect anyone to actually use it. One of my sample characters currently does, he runs about with four Ghostrider Modules and multiple actions. He has four forks of himself, and has them Jam into modified Synth Morphs to act as drones.

Shame I will never really get to play him, might get to use him as a Big Bad in one of my campaigns though.

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Sat, 2009-09-12 18:21

#6

HappyDaze

So the short answer is that

So the short answer is that my take (increased Speed is seperate from Extra Actions and the two are not mutually exclusive) is correct, right?

Sat, 2009-09-12 18:30

#7

HappyDaze

Compared to the Ghostrider Module

Does the automatic remerge when you finish using the Multi-Tasking augmentation require a Merging Test? Does it take any time?

Can I use the Multi-Tasking augmentation to keep operating my 'home morph' while the pseudo forks it produces jam other morphs? I know that I can do this with a fork operating out of a Ghostrider Module.

Can the forks produced by the Multi-Tasking augmentation 'leave your head' to directly sleeve into other morphs? II know that I can do this with a fork operating out of a Ghostrider Module.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm now not sure why Multi-Tasking is worth taking over just having a pair of Ghostrider Modules to run beta forks unless it bypasses the Merging Test.

Sat, 2009-09-12 18:43

#8

Moon-Hawk

Right.

That's the way I read it.

Sat, 2009-09-12 18:47

#9

Moon-Hawk

I don't think it requires a test.

"I guess what I'm saying is that I'm now not sure why Multi-Tasking is worth taking over just having a pair of Ghostrider Modules to run beta forks unless it bypasses the Merging Test."
This. My interpretation is that the multitasking keeps your merges down to a four-hour lifespan, they live in your head right along with you, they have the same experiences, and under the specific conditions of the multi-tasking implant you get to skip the re-merging test and assume it all goes well with no stress.

If you want to do any of that other stuff you listed, you need to use the normal rules for forking.

At least, that's my understanding and how I'll rule it at my table, unless one of the devs wants to swing by here and straighten me out. :-)

Sat, 2009-11-21 22:10

#10

morolen

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

I have a question, why is speed so godly? Going from 1 to 2 speed doubles your combat effectiveness, the single biggest jump in ass kickery in the game, thusly why would any character that wanted to be the least bit effective try to get their speed as high as possible at the expense of other things?

Sun, 2009-11-22 02:07

#11

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Because you're not competeing with yourself. The guy with more phases usually gets the last word. He gets the last attack and if that doesn't kill you he usually goes first in the next turn. At least they've done a fairly good job separating the initiative roll from the number of phases you get.

—

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Sun, 2009-11-22 11:59

#12

morolen

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

So you don't think its kind of lame that speed the the single best stat by far for combat oriented characters? I do, I would like to have options when building combat oriented npcs but speed is so good that I cant justify why the baddies wouldn't always spike that stat as high as possible. Its like how godly Celerity was in OWoD and still is to a point, generally speaking anything that can give you extra combat actions must be very carefully considered or else it becomes the best stat in the game for combat.

Sun, 2009-11-22 12:22

#13

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

In some ways it does bother me, yes. It limit's character concepts in some ways. However, it's realistic. As soon as humanity entered the 'gunpowder' age Strength and toughness stopped being all that important. Accuracy and reaction times are the key to survival of physical confrontation. This is the great thing about EP, as opposed to any hack and slash game you care to mention. Look at the sample characters and find that few of them are combat oriented. This game is not about combat. When your primary opponents are viri, software, politicians, all of which have multiple ways to defeat the character before combat even becomes an option the world is Wide open for a GM. So a player making a combat character needs to be sure he doesn't spend too many creation resources on combat. He'll need a second skill set to be involved in the game.

—

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Sun, 2009-11-22 12:49

#14

morolen

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

While you are right about there being many ways to solve problems with people other then shooting them until they stop moving(and it is quite refreshing), failing in combat usually has the biggest penalty. As for it being realistic, well yes it is, but there are plenty of places where realism only makes the game lamer and making a stat mandatory for all characters that want to participate in any meaningful way in combat is silly, though to the designers credit at least, speed doesn't make your movement any faster so at least you can run away.

Sun, 2009-11-22 18:26

#15

Wild_Cat

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Remember that a high Speed stat is only useful if you know the fight has started. There's a million ways to disable a high-Speed character, among which stealth (surprise attacks are a bitch when the game system has wound penalties), seeker weapons, sniper rifles (or any other weapon with a longer range than theirs), flash grenades, and the old favorite: superior numbers. Also, note that everybody gets to act once before the extra actions kick in, and that Speed-enhancing ware doesn't necessarily increase initiative. It doesn't matter much that you get to act thrice if you took a bullet to the head in phase 1. Heck, even if the first action phase didn't kill you, it may have left you with crippling wound penalties (not to mention the Durability checks). However, yes, multiple actions per turn are, and have always been, the staple of street samurai in cyberpunk, associated genres and the games based thereupon. Just like wired reflexes, Celerity and even D&D fighters/monks who get extra attacks very quickly, it's fair to expect any combat-oriented Eclipse Phase character to use morphs with at least neurachem, and possibly other speed/initiative-boosting implants. Of course it makes them scarily effective killing machines -- that's the point. In a firefight, it's Molly Millions, not Case, that you're supposed to be afraid of. On the other hand, player characters won't be the only ones to have noticed that. And unlike Celerity, lv. 1 neurachem isn't neither expensive nor rare -- it even comes for free with all Fury morphs. Any decent paramilitary force the PCs face will certainly have a few people with multiple action phases and good weaponry. "Give a man an action phase and he thinks he's Superman. Give him two and he thinks he's God."

—

Come baguette some!

Sun, 2009-11-22 19:03

#16

morolen

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Wild_Cat wrote:
Remember that a high Speed stat is only useful if you know the fight has started. There's a million ways to disable a high-Speed character, among which stealth (surprise attacks are a bitch when the game system has wound penalties), seeker weapons, sniper rifles (or any other weapon with a longer range than theirs), flash grenades, and the old favorite: superior numbers.

Now combine any of those archetypes with someone with a speed of 2 or 3 for a truly devastating opponent, what sniper wouldn't like 2 or 3 shots extra? As for wounds, well they don't effect your speed in any meaningful way(which is how our game dealt with it).

Wild_Cat wrote:
Also, note that everybody gets to act once before the extra actions kick in, and that Speed-enhancing ware doesn't necessarily increase initiative. It doesn't matter much that you get to act thrice if you took a bullet to the head in phase 1. Heck, even if the first action phase didn't kill you, it may have left you with crippling wound penalties (not to mention the Durability checks).

So you would assume someone that has a high speed rating wouldn't also spike initiative as high as they can? Does having a good speed score somehow lower your maximum initiative in some way I missed?

Wild_Cat wrote:
On the other hand, player characters won't be the only ones to have noticed that. And unlike Celerity, lv. 1 neurachem isn't neither expensive nor rare -- it even comes for free with all Fury morphs. Any decent paramilitary force the PCs face will certainly have a few people with multiple action phases and good weaponry. "Give a man an action phase and he thinks he's Superman. Give him two and he thinks he's God."

Moreso, why wouldnt a decent paramilitary force go out of their way to give all their soldiers as many extra actions as they can, since it would increase your soldiers effectiveness better then any other stat or skill? Now I'm not arguing that speed isn't a staple of the genre nor logical from the point of view of the game world, just that it is SO good and quite cheap and too hard to strip away from someone. In fact of all the PC's I have my favorite is the constantly strung out drug user in a 3rd hand fury morph that wears a cowboy hat and has a habit of talking a bit like a Texan gunslinger from the old west. Speed enhancing drugs, high initiative and perception make for a rather lethal combination and one that isn't that hard nor expensive to come by.

Tue, 2009-11-24 12:44

#17

standard_gravity standard_gravity's picture

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

morolen wrote:
While you are right about there being many ways to solve problems with people other then shooting them until they stop moving(and it is quite refreshing), failing in combat usually has the biggest penalty.

Not so sure I agree with the last bit. Given the fact that your enemies simply wont die (some very resourceful people may attempt to kill all your backups, but the PCs probably don't have these resources, nor the time), you may kill them once, but they will be back. In this scenario, it will be much more effective to fight your enemies with rep (get them shunned by their faction) or politics (ban them from the habitat) or other social schemes. Other examples: freeze their credit accounts, hack their muse, sleep with their wife... Apart from being IMO more effective in the EP setting, it provides interesting and entertaining and challenging stories!

—

[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/ext_userbar.jpg[/img] "People think dreams aren't real just because they aren't made of matter, of particles. Dreams are real. But they are made of viewpoints, of images, of memories and puns and lost hopes." - John Dee

Tue, 2009-11-24 16:18

#18

morolen

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

So you wouldn't feel cheated as a PC if you got killed, and thus, mission failed, by an unbalanced game mechanic?

Tue, 2009-11-24 20:47

#19

Moracai

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

In my game I plan to restrict starting PC gear to non-expensive items only. Only non-expensive Speed enhancers are: NeuraChem1, Kick and MRDR. I really don't know how to go about with those drugs, but I'm not planning to allow them being combo-ed.

Tue, 2009-11-24 21:07

#20

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

I guess I don't understand why it's an unballanced game mechanic. It's a future tech game not cowboys and indians. If you wanna play a combat guy then you should have speed increasing ware or you're gonna suck as a combat guy. If you don't want to be a combat guy then you know that you shouldn't fight with guys who have speed increasing ware. Iterative actions are a part of the setting. Will any good millitary unit have this ware? Absolutely Yes. Even the poorer ones will. Why? because it exists. Technology changed the game. First it was repeating rifles then it was neurachem. Once there were repeating rifles everyone stopped using muskets. That's just the way things are. Neurachem is pretty much standard issue equipement. I'd be carefull about nerfing combat drugs because that's how the Jovan Republic boosts it's soldiers.

Quote:
my favorite is the constantly strung out drug user in a 3rd hand fury morph

I'm really really not trying to piss on your parade but do drugs have any effect on a morph that has toxin filters as standard ware?

—

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Tue, 2009-11-24 22:05

#21

morolen

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Ok, fair enough, having a speed of 2 increases your chances of landing a successful hit by 100%. Nothing else in the game can give you as much of an increase to hit and more to the point it is trivial to get at least a +1 to speed via drugs, ergo, everyone that can get it, will because it is so good. As far as I am concerned the definition of a broken RPG mechanic is, Is power/ability/discipline/feat X mandatory? If it is then it needs to be rethought because making something so good that no player would ever not take it is limiting player choices and that's uncool. As to your second point about advancing technology changing the face of warfare. Indeed, but fortuneatly for us, this is a game too so somewhere along the line reality must be sacrificed for balance. To the designers credit they have done an excellent job of straddling that line in EP and I have found it to be a rather well balanced system for the most part, my present bitching excluded. The fury morph in question, as I said, is quite 3rd hand, hence some of the implants are...not in the best shape.

Moracai wrote:
In my game I plan to restrict starting PC gear to non-expensive items only. Only non-expensive Speed enhancers are: NeuraChem1, Kick and MRDR. I really don't know how to go about with those drugs, but I'm not planning to allow them being combo-ed.

Indeed, some of the things we have discussed are fractional attacks ala 2nd edition DnD, where you get your 2nd attack every other round, but that was kind of obnoxious to remember. Making speed enhancing drugs give an automatic amount of mental stress so charecters wouldn't pop them like candy but then we thought that might be a little too cruel to professional soldiers to say nothing of the idea of a Rifts style "Juicer" character that one of my players propositioned me for. At the moment some pieces of cyberware, namely reflex boosters, are limited to synths only and drugs are limited to biomorphs only. I think I am going pose the "restrict starting PC gear to non-expensive items only" rule to my PC's next session, good call.

Wed, 2009-11-25 02:44

#22

standard_gravity standard_gravity's picture

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

morolen wrote:
So you wouldn't feel cheated as a PC if you got killed, and thus, mission failed, by an unbalanced game mechanic?

To me it's not about game mechanics, it's about the world and setting of EP. The devs have definitely said that you can boost your speed to twice or thrice or even more of that of a non-boosted person. This is the case in some sci-fi lit and fits perfectly (IMO) with the technology level etc of EP. If you are focused on non-combat mods, there are plenty of super-powers to be have in those fields as well. This is the future, goddamit ;) I think we come from different RPG schools of thought, which is perfectly fine. We can agree to disagree :) As a GM, If I think the PCs or the NPCs are to unbalanced, I fix it to suit the story. If I would be a player (which happens far to seldom), I would create a PC according to what I would like to play, not according to how I should build the most powerful PC. In any case, perhaps communication between the GM and the players would solve this issue. If you want to build a top-of-the-line combat monster, ask your GM what level of speed he should have in order to be able to compete with combat oriented NPCs. Same if you want to make a decent hacker: ask what gear and mods are appropriate at least at a basic level.

—

[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/ext_userbar.jpg[/img] "People think dreams aren't real just because they aren't made of matter, of particles. Dreams are real. But they are made of viewpoints, of images, of memories and puns and lost hopes." - John Dee

Wed, 2009-11-25 23:53

#23

Artiamus

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

I think it comes down to a 'what if?' sort of thing. From my experiences with playing Shadowrun I find that if when it comes down to combat, if you don't have the extra speed boost then you can be pretty well screwed. NeuraChem1 is relatively cheap to get in a starting morph there's no reason not to purchase it. Once you're on a second+ morph it's up to you if you want to use it, but when it comes down to how many people you can shoot/hack/slash/rocket/grenade, having it will certainly come in handy. Outside of combat it can still have some influence too. Just need to be creative.

Wed, 2009-12-02 23:29

#24

GMJoe

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

OneTrikPony wrote:
Quote:
my favorite is the constantly strung out drug user in a 3rd hand fury morph
I'm really really not trying to piss on your parade but do drugs have any effect on a morph that has toxin filters as standard ware?

Technically, yes. Or at least, definitely maybe. Keep in mind that the 'Toxins' section is a subcategory of the 'Drugs, Chemicals and Toxins' section of the gear chapter. While this is arguably just a minor semantic point and up to the interpretation of the GM, it is possible to claim that not all drugs are toxins. It is also reasonable to argue that a genehacker designing a combat morph might allow specific combat-beneficial drugs to be effective - particularly if they were produced in the user's own drug glands (p304). Finally, the story 'Lack' in the front of the book specifically mentions that a fury morph can be addicted to smoking, and therefore affected by nicotine. Then again, maybe that's an error on the part of the author. Oh, and it's concieveable someone might want to remove their toxin filters for recreational purposes, after all.

Tue, 2009-12-15 10:41

#25

fodigg

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

If I wanted to play a game designed to make every character equally effective in combat or have a dizzying array of combat archetypes, I would play [i]D&D 4E[/i], which I think is a great game. But I don't want that out of [i]EP[/i]. [i]EP[/i] is my "freeform" game, where there are no classes, class roles, or interchangeable stats. I felt the same way about [i]Shadowrun 4E[/i]. Edit: Oh, and if I wanted a compromise I'd play [i]Star Wars Saga Edition[/i].

—

-fo diggity

Wed, 2009-12-16 06:22

#26

Zophiel

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

morolen wrote:
As far as I am concerned the definition of a broken RPG mechanic is, Is power/ability/discipline/feat X mandatory? If it is then it needs to be rethought because making something so good that no player would ever not take it is limiting player choices and that's uncool.

I have a big problem with your logic here. Is armor mandatory in Shadowrun? Absolutely, even for non-combat characters. How about wired reflexes for combat characters? Yup. Guns? Yes, unless you're absolutely NOT a combat character. Even hand to hand specialists will want something to throw at a sniper. Is preception mandatory (in just about any RPG)? By and large. Magic weapons in D&D? After the first half dozen levels or so. Now, is a speed bonus mandatory for EP combat? About as much as Shadowrun's wired reflexes. Anyone serious about going ginsu will have it in some form. Just like anyone serious about programming will have multi-tasking or be an infomorph. But then you might as well ask if tailored pheromones are mandatory. After all, every social character will want them at that price. Against well funded enemies, these are considerations for what the bad guys have. For your PC's, there's no guarantee of availability and egocasting does a lot to equalize things.

Wed, 2009-12-16 17:29

#27

morolen

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Then allow me to retort. Having never played shadowrun due to my aversion of dice pool based games, I will have to just assume you are right, fortunately, we aren’t playing shadowrun then. Is perception mandatory? Well no, not really, mostly you only need one or two people to have a lot for it to be effective. Magic Items in D&D. Well, not a good game to mention if you are trying to defend a possibly broken mechanic, but that is neither here nor there. Yes, they were mandatory and it was quite obvious they were, looking at the wealth by character level chart alone showed that. To say nothing of the fact that the magic item section of the DMG was 77 pages long. So yes it was pretty obvious they were mandatory. Also there wasn’t a single item in D&D that could increase your lethality by 100%(outside of the spell Haste, which was errata’d as a matter of fact) Speed however, is just a few paragraphs in the midst of the book that can increase your combat lethality by 100%, nothing else can give even close to that. As for mental multitasking, its rather hard to hack someone to death in combat time as clearly pointed out in this thread, http://www.eclipsephase.com/combat-hacking. With regard to Enhanced Pheromones, they do not increase your social skills by 100% and therefore, while good, they are quite in line with other morph enhancements you can buy. To you last point, as a GM I don’t want to use theft as a means to balance my PC’s, it’s a dirty trick to egocast the team and then involve them in serious fights, let alone doing it more than once, then it’s dirty AND unoriginal.

standard_gravity wrote:
I think we come from different RPG schools of thought, which is perfectly fine. We can agree to disagree :) As a GM, If I think the PCs or the NPCs are to unbalanced, I fix it to suit the story. If I would be a player (which happens far to seldom), I would create a PC according to what I would like to play, not according to how I should build the most powerful PC.

I humbly disagree, I think we come from exactly the same school of thought, I am just maintaining this conversation because I would like to hear other people opinions on it. I am a storyist (is that a term>) at heart as well and I hold no rules sacred, we have chopped, twisted, added and otherwise changed rules to fit the story quite a bit. Even my more mechanically inclined PC’s are quite sub-optimal, if for no other reason then this. EP is a point build system, all point build systems are inherently unbalanced by their very versatile nature, the balance is maintained by trust between the GM and the players to NOT break it.

Thu, 2009-12-17 05:17

#28

Wild_Cat

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

morolen wrote:
Then allow me to retort. Having never played shadowrun due to my aversion of dice pool based games, I will have to just assume you are right, fortunately, we aren’t playing shadowrun then.

I have bad news for you, then: Eclipse Phase is a more-or-less direct d100 port of the Shadowrun 4 game mechanics. Neurachem is the new wired reflexes.

—

Come baguette some!

Thu, 2009-12-17 05:31

#29

standard_gravity standard_gravity's picture

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

OK, fair enough. What I'm trying to say is that I take the EP universe for what it is (and I love it!), change it to my liking, and run with it. Rules do not really bother me that much, nor "balance". This means that I judge Speed not by its game mechanical results but whether it makes for a nice setting and good stories. And I think it does. A lot of stuff in EP makes charcters transhumanly excellent - I mean, try throw in a few PCs without mesh insets and see how well they will do in a socialite setting on Mars!

—

[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/ext_userbar.jpg[/img] "People think dreams aren't real just because they aren't made of matter, of particles. Dreams are real. But they are made of viewpoints, of images, of memories and puns and lost hopes." - John Dee

Thu, 2009-12-17 07:26

#30

Cardul

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Perception Skills is ALWAYS essential. You do not want your character getting killed while defenseless because he/she got surprised, do you? It does not matter what game you play, the most common rule I have seen is "Ambush! Everyone roll perception! Those who succeed get to defend and act! those who failed...well, guess who I am shooting at!"

Thu, 2009-12-17 08:45

#31

fodigg

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

A GM who isn't totally heartless will not throw a million speed 2 or speed 3 enemies at a party where everyone has speed 1. If only because it'll make combat grind for the players. That might not be a "hardcore" attitude, but I see GM as storyteller first, adversary second.

—

-fo diggity

Thu, 2009-12-17 09:55

#32

morolen

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

4 responses overnight, excellent. :D

Wild_Cat wrote:
morolen wrote:
Then allow me to retort. Having never played shadowrun due to my aversion of dice pool based games, I will have to just assume you are right, fortunately, we aren’t playing shadowrun then.
I have bad news for you, then: Eclipse Phase is a more-or-less direct d100 port of the Shadowrun 4 game mechanics. Neurachem is the new wired reflexes.

Well if it isnt a dice pool based game then Hooray it changed for the better! Now just get rid of the pants on head retarded fantasy elements and maybe it will be worth it in my eyes, or I could just play EP instead. As for Neurachem, im fine with the combat drugs, they have a spool up time and a penalty to use them so you likely wont eat them every combat only when [i]Shit Just Got Real[/i]. Reflex booster on the other hand...

standard_gravity wrote:
OK, fair enough. What I'm trying to say is that I take the EP universe for what it is (and I love it!), change it to my liking, and run with it. Rules do not really bother me that much, nor "balance". This means that I judge Speed not by its game mechanical results but whether it makes for a nice setting and good stories. And I think it does. A lot of stuff in EP makes charcters transhumanly excellent - I mean, try throw in a few PCs without mesh insets and see how well they will do in a socialite setting on Mars!

Contrary to how this thread has no doubt made me sound the rules don't bother me that much either, though there is something elegant to a rule system that can organically give rise to the universe its simulating. Yes there are plenty of things that make transhumans way WAY more capable and that is one of the core themes of the setting I just think speed was poorly considered, or more specifically, reflex boosters as they are written are.

Cardul wrote:
Perception Skills is ALWAYS essential. You do not want your character getting killed while defenseless because he/she got surprised, do you? It does not matter what game you play, the most common rule I have seen is "Ambush! Everyone roll perception! Those who succeed get to defend and act! those who failed...well, guess who I am shooting at!"

Somewhat game dependent I would say, if individual combat rounds don't hold the potential to be hugely lethal then no, not everyone needs perception, however if they ARE hugely lethal, then yes everyone does. EP falls into the latter catagory as I have found, combat can be over quite fast so its best to keep your wits about you reagrdless of weather or not haveing your perception maxxed makes sense for your character.

fodigg wrote:
A GM who isn't totally heartless will not throw a million speed 2 or speed 3 enemies at a party where everyone has speed 1. If only because it'll make combat grind for the players. That might not be a "hardcore" attitude, but I see GM as storyteller first, adversary second.

Oh I agree completely, As a dm I have used one combat adversary that was a speed character, but i had to be careful to not give him give damage spiking weapons since the inherently multiplicative nature of speed would quickly make them spiral out of control. So he used small concealable weapons, was a memorable fight in fact. But speed can quickly get out of hand if heavy damage high speed adversary's attack en masse, besides I want my players to succeed I just don't want it to feel like they weren't in danger. On that note i have to go to work so I may edit this later today.

Thu, 2009-12-17 20:43

#33

Zophiel

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

morolen wrote:
To you last point, as a GM I don’t want to use theft as a means to balance my PC’s, it’s a dirty trick to egocast the team and then involve them in serious fights, let alone doing it more than once, then it’s dirty AND unoriginal.

While I see most of your points, or at least where we disagree and why, this is the main one that bothers me. Specifically because gear is cheap (and I include morphs in this) I see it as easy come, easy go. The least expensive things at character creation for the punch are rep, morphs and money. Rep is going to go up and down in play. So is your cash flow. Both of those effect your access to new morphs. I don't consider gear and morphs any more of a protected territory than rep and cash. What the PC's do with each is up to them, for better or worse. Missions will separate them from all of these things at one time or another unless they stay to a very localized geographic area or have months of downtime. Unfortunately, Firewall doesn't really give you a choice in that matter. They bring in the best person for the job even if it means egocasting. Due to backups, its also possible to make the world of EP a lot more lethal than your average RPG. Kill a morph and the PC restores from his last backup. Stick in a quantum farcaster and that backup has no memory loss. I'm not advocating a game where whoever goes last in the round dies, but it is completely fair to allow Project Ozma to field agents equal to the PC party, not just in skills, morphs and upgrades but in strategy and teamwork (PC's always seem to have trouble with that last one). On the other hand, I tend to be fairly generous with availability. In other words if you lose it easily, you can replace it easily as long as you have the cash/rep. The specific examples being covered here might require criminal connections or access to hypercorp elite circles in the inner system, but its within the range of the possible, especially since having 80 rep to multiple factions (and/or i-rep) is a trivial creation expense even compared to wads of starting cash. The final, and most important note, is that I make sure players know this. You may lose your morph. You may be separated from your morph and your gear. That's why its cheap.

Thu, 2009-12-17 22:30

#34

morolen

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Zophiel wrote:
morolen wrote:
To you last point, as a GM I don’t want to use theft as a means to balance my PC’s, it’s a dirty trick to egocast the team and then involve them in serious fights, let alone doing it more than once, then it’s dirty AND unoriginal.
While I see most of your points, or at least where we disagree and why, this is the main one that bothers me. Specifically because gear is cheap (and I include morphs in this) I see it as easy come, easy go. The least expensive things at character creation for the punch are rep, morphs and money. Rep is going to go up and down in play. So is your cash flow. Both of those effect your access to new morphs. I don't consider gear and morphs any more of a protected territory than rep and cash. What the PC's do with each is up to them, for better or worse. Missions will separate them from all of these things at one time or another unless they stay to a very localized geographic area or have months of downtime. Unfortunately, Firewall doesn't really give you a choice in that matter. They bring in the best person for the job even if it means egocasting. Due to backups, its also possible to make the world of EP a lot more lethal than your average RPG. Kill a morph and the PC restores from his last backup. Stick in a quantum farcaster and that backup has no memory loss. I'm not advocating a game where whoever goes last in the round dies, but it is completely fair to allow Project Ozma to field agents equal to the PC party, not just in skills, morphs and upgrades but in strategy and teamwork (PC's always seem to have trouble with that last one). On the other hand, I tend to be fairly generous with availability. In other words if you lose it easily, you can replace it easily as long as you have the cash/rep. The specific examples being covered here might require criminal connections or access to hypercorp elite circles in the inner system, but its within the range of the possible, especially since having 80 rep to multiple factions (and/or i-rep) is a trivial creation expense even compared to wads of starting cash. The final, and most important note, is that I make sure players know this. You may lose your morph. You may be separated from your morph and your gear. That's why its cheap.

This is by far the best argument I have seen yet. :D I would contest that while death is a temporary condition indeed, mission failure, is not and in fact is more disastrous as a firewall agent. In most other RPG's mission failure normally results in death or at the very least, rape. In EP's case you get to live it down and be reminded over and over, to say nothing of the very high stakes firewall is playing for, death might not be permanent, but failure still is. Also most of my PC's are quite attached to their morphs and we are playing a kind of low down and dirty bunch of, non firewall, scum, who occasionally moonlight as Martian terrorists. Needless to say, replacement morphs are hard to come by for the moment.

Fri, 2009-12-18 22:08

#35

The Sandman The Sandman's picture

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

You know what your party should do then, if it's smart? CHEAT. By this I don't mean out-of-game dice fudging and shenanigans of that nature; I mean that in-game they should try to avoid fair fights whenever possible. For example, readied actions are going to be your friend here. Make liberal use of them to disrupt some critical task a guy on the other side is doing (for example, ready an action to shoot somebody, then use it to interrupt someone after they've done the Quick Action of pulling the pin on a grenade but before they've performed the Complex Action of throwing it at you). Lure the opposing force into ambushes. Tripwires, remote-detonated or pressure-activated grenades, somebody using a camouflaged spotter drone and some fancy refraction tricks to snipe people from around corners with a beam weapon, and whatever other bits of nastiness you can think of to soften the other guy up before he can start shooting at you. And don't underestimate the power of soft options. Like blackmail, or seduction, or bribery, or alternatively your hacker getting creative with things like the local tacnet or the environmental controls in the habitat. If your players still decide to get into a stand up fight with a group of corporate mercs who have morphs, gear and training all designed to make them much better in a simple shootout than the PCs, then they're just going to have to accept that there's a good chance that they're utterly hosed.

Sat, 2009-12-19 00:13

#36

morolen

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that if you want to play a combat oriented character yourself any points you spend on combat skills are a waste until you buy more speed. This isn't a question of how my party deals with high speed characters but rather of ways to make speed a non-necessary choice. For the cost of one morph enhancement, you can increase your combat powers by FAR more then with ANY OTHER CHOICE, Speed is, in essence, mandatory. Thats why I think it is a broken mechanic because NOTHING else compares to it.

Sat, 2009-12-19 02:22

#37

The Sandman The Sandman's picture

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

I again direct you towards the "find ways to start hurting the other guy before he can actually get into combat with you" thing. Also, if the other guy is going to get a lot more actions than you are, that just means you want to kill or cripple him quickly. 4 Action Phases per Turn and 4 Complex Actions per phase don't help much if a PC blows a point of Moxie (something that your average NPC doesn't have) to skip to the head of the Initiative order and then uses a plasma lance to destack the combat monster before he gets a turn at all. And I reiterate that if your players keep just ramming their heads against the wall in lieu of either going around the wall, lobbing grenades over the wall, or reinforcing their heads so that they can actually break through the wall, then they frankly deserve to be looking at a string of failed missions and an el cheapo synthmorph resleeve as a result of their stupidity.

Sat, 2009-12-19 05:45

#38

Zophiel

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Fun, semi-tongue in cheek anti-speed tactic assuming the guy has a ton of implants for extra complex actions. Everyone in the party has a Muse, even if they don't have anything fancy. All Muses have infosec and probably aren't doing much to help you in a firefight. Tell them to get together in teams of four (+30 teamwork) and hack his implants. That should keep those extra mental actions tied up. If he's still jumping around like a junkie, shoot him up like one.

Tue, 2009-12-22 21:23

#39

Karri

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

I've been thinking about that. I do think speed is something most combat types would boost. At least, it's a common trait for all the really badass types in cyberpunk fiction. Nevertheless, speed is REALLY good in EP. And, after some consideration, I think I'd say it's almost too good. Someone mentioned the old World of Darkness system. And yes, it was pretty godly in that game, but at least there was a downside. Vampires had to burn blood (and there was only so much they could spend in one turn - which meant less for healing and other powers), werewolves had a potent but even more limited pool, changelings had to do some weird rituals, mages risked exploding from paradox backlash, all that. As for Shadowrun, it came with less problems, but I still don't think it was so awesome as it is in EP. The speed boosters, if memory serves, also came with a hefty pricetag... in cash, effort to obtain, and a massive humanity loss (well, whatever humanity was called in that system). In EP it isn't that expensive to acquire, and there's no real cost involved in its use (well, psi does come with some drawbacks, but still). It's a perfect extra action without any penalties. I'd think there might be issues with, say, recoil if you were blasting away, positioning if you were in melee, or simply increasing sensory input or whatever. I could see a -10 penalty on the second action, followed by a -20 on the third and so on, which could probably be bought off with other implants or specialized training. I suppose they're just that good in the game, but there does seem to be a big jump from those to, say, everything else.

Zophiel wrote:
I have a big problem with your logic here. Is armor mandatory in Shadowrun? Absolutely, even for non-combat characters. How about wired reflexes for combat characters? Yup. Guns? Yes, unless you're absolutely NOT a combat character. Even hand to hand specialists will want something to throw at a sniper. Is preception mandatory (in just about any RPG)? By and large. Magic weapons in D&D? After the first half dozen levels or so.

Guns, armor and magic items? Come on. You'd have a point if he had said "implants are broken, because everyone have them." No, it's too general. Now, if everyone lugged around a specific kind of weapons (say, shotguns) or armor, you might be looking at some broken items, and if the game features Longswords of Ultimate Cheese, then they should probably be expensive and/or hard to get ahold of.

The Sandman wrote:
I again direct you towards the "find ways to start hurting the other guy before he can actually get into combat with you" thing. Also, if the other guy is going to get a lot more actions than you are, that just means you want to kill or cripple him quickly. 4 Action Phases per Turn and 4 Complex Actions per phase don't help much if a PC blows a point of Moxie (something that your average NPC doesn't have) to skip to the head of the Initiative order and then uses a plasma lance to destack the combat monster before he gets a turn at all. And I reiterate that if your players keep just ramming their heads against the wall in lieu of either going around the wall, lobbing grenades over the wall, or reinforcing their heads so that they can actually break through the wall, then they frankly deserve to be looking at a string of failed missions and an el cheapo synthmorph resleeve as a result of their stupidity.

No, I think the guy had a point. He wasn't saying there was no way to beat someone with it. There certainly is. At least as long as the bad guys don't use the exact same tricks on the players (and why wouldn't they play Rambo too?). Speedboosters are really awesome, and the hardware doesn't really have any downsides to it. Psi and drugs do, of course, and seem more balanced. Again, neurachem (or other speed boosters) isn't godmode, but is there an implant or other item that can match it? This is a serious question - I haven't been able to find one (or I wouldn't be asking), but I might've missed something.

Wed, 2009-12-23 01:27

#40

Zophiel

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

I admit I haven't exhaustively checked speed in EP, in terms of what gives what. However, the +2 speed mods all work exclusively on mental actions. Those can be matched by (among other things) just being an infomorph.

Fri, 2010-01-22 03:04

#41

standard_gravity standard_gravity's picture

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Judging by the quick start adventure, there will not be any "speed inflation". As far as I remember, none of the antagonists had speed above 1. And these were clearly combar adversaries! As a GM, so far I have only given speed enhancements to important/powerful NPCs, while the cannon fodder has had speed 1.

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Fri, 2010-01-22 21:22

#42

morolen

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Zophiel wrote:
I admit I haven't exhaustively checked speed in EP, in terms of what gives what. However, the +2 speed mods all work exclusively on mental actions. Those can be matched by (among other things) just being an infomorph.

I understand, theres alot of them to read through, Reflex Boosters, pg.308, +10 REF and +1 Speed, bam an instant doubling of combat skill.

standard_gravity wrote:
Judging by the quick start adventure, there will not be any "speed inflation". As far as I remember, none of the antagonists had speed above 1. And these were clearly combar adversaries! As a GM, so far I have only given speed enhancements to important/powerful NPCs, while the cannon fodder has had speed 1.

Pretty much how I do it as well, but it would be nice if the book insinuated they are kind of rare/obvious/have some sort of drawback, like all the other speed enhancing items do.

Fri, 2010-01-22 21:22

#43

morolen

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

oops double posted

Thu, 2010-01-28 18:23

#44

Decivre

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Zophiel wrote:
I have a big problem with your logic here. Is armor mandatory in Shadowrun? Absolutely, even for non-combat characters.

No, it isn't. Riggers who use combat drones have no need for armor. Spellcasters and many adepts have spells which can protect them, oftentimes far better than armor could (with an inability to stack). Matrix users who generally fight in the matrix will find body armor to be relatively useless in the form of combat they'll generally be facing.

Zophiel wrote:
How about wired reflexes for combat characters? Yup.

Hell no. No technomancer, mage or adept with half a brain would install an essence-hogging device like that in their bodies. In our group, we found it more financially smart for the combat characters to wear sustaining foci bonded to the mage... because they could use those for other things when speed wasn't a necessity.

Zophiel wrote:
Guns? Yes, unless you're absolutely NOT a combat character. Even hand to hand specialists will want something to throw at a sniper.

Considering that a mage can use combat spells at low force for minimal drain, why would he waste money on a gun when he has similarly effective tools with infinite ammo? To that end, stealth characters who utilize chameleon suits have no need for a gun, since they cannot be held without giving away your location (unless modified by expensive means).

Zophiel wrote:
Is preception mandatory (in just about any RPG)? By and large.

For perhaps one character in the group. Not necessarily for everyone.

Zophiel wrote:
Magic weapons in D&D? After the first half dozen levels or so.

Unless it's Dark Sun (2nd Edition; can't speak about 4th Edition yet).

Zophiel wrote:
Now, is a speed bonus mandatory for EP combat? About as much as Shadowrun's wired reflexes. Anyone serious about going ginsu will have it in some form. Just like anyone serious about programming will have multi-tasking or be an infomorph. But then you might as well ask if tailored pheromones are mandatory. After all, every social character will want them at that price. Against well funded enemies, these are considerations for what the bad guys have. For your PC's, there's no guarantee of availability and egocasting does a lot to equalize things.

An arguable statement, to be sure. The stock enemies in the quick-start do not have extra actions, and so having no speed boosts puts you on par with them. At best you could argue that speed boosts are necessary if you are going against a enemies with speed boosts, but even then there are alternative options for more actions (recruiting more men to assist in combat, or simply forking). 1 guy with 4 actions = 4 guys with 1 action each. Hell, the latter has one significant advantage: 4 guys with 1 action each + 1 lethal wound = 3 guys with 1 action each; 1 guy with 4 actions + 1 lethal wound = 0 guys with no actions.

—

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Thu, 2010-02-04 03:49

#45

Bloodwork

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

It could be worse. I think in Shadowrun 2ndEd the extra actions came [i]before[/i] other actions. So basically combat started and the reflex guys would act multiple times before everyone else got their guns out of their holsters. Which admittedly conjours a cool mental picture but was super boring for the slower characters.

—

That which doesn't kill you usually succeeds on the second attempt.

Wed, 2010-10-13 23:15

#46

joe.altepeter joe.altepeter's picture

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Anyone know if the developers have ever clarified the whole speed/extra actions issue? The text isn't terribly clear and it would be nice to know how many actions they intended someone with neurachem level 2 and multitasking to have.

—

-Joe

Thu, 2011-03-31 07:56

#47

Dramatic Exit Dramatic Exit's picture

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Apologies for the necro, this is a good thread on Speed and something - as a new EP GM - I'm thinking about. Whilst I realise equipment and morphs in EP are often 'easy-come, easy-go' I suspect that the system having a little more balance might not hurt. Whether that's putting a penalty on all multiple Speed actions in one turn (for example: -20 for 2nd, -40 for 3rd, -60 for 4th) or/and maybe doing some sort of mental stress damage - so using extra Speed becomes a more tactical choice - I'm not sure. If anyone's had any more thoughts on this subject I'd certainly be interested in hearing them.

Thu, 2011-03-31 22:00

#48

mickykitsune mickykitsune's picture

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Some other thoughts: While there are no mechanics or penalties listed for pumping lots of extra speeds or actions, a few things come to mind as to the possible in-game consequences. Mental stress? Constantly ramping up the brain processing speed and multitasking is going to cause stress, which is only going to get worse and worse the more one does it. Addiction? All those chemicals and mental stimulation is going to have somewhat addictive qualities - the more you do it, the more you want to do it, to the point where it does become like an actual addiction. Co-ordination? Your mind can run as fast as you want, but getting your body to respond as quickly might be another matter. The more you try to do, the less well you might be doing it.

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Sun, 2011-04-24 02:32

#49

Smokeskin

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

Funny, I think the Speed implants are fine. Neurachem 1 is sort of affordable at High cost and will be what distinguishes combat capable morphs. Adding Expensive reflex boosters is only for dedicated combat morphs, and neurachem 2 is both expensive and has a hangover downside. I think it all works out fine. My main problem with implants are the many very good low and moderate cost ones that you can pile on at almost no cost.

Mon, 2011-10-10 12:15

#50

CYBER78

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

but extra speed che reduce the time of task action ?

Fri, 2011-12-23 00:55

#51

Sly

Re: Speed and Extra Actions

morolen wrote:
having a speed of 2 increases your chances of landing a successful hit by 100%. Nothing else in the game can give you as much of an increase to hit ... everyone that can get it, will because it is so good. As far as I am concerned the definition of a broken RPG mechanic is, Is power/ability/discipline/feat X mandatory? If it is then it needs to be rethought because making something so good that no player would ever not take it is limiting player choices and that's uncool.

OP: Yes, in general Action Phases and Speed would multiply each other, but read the restrictions on the individual enhancements, e.g. Psi-Chi Multitasking and Neurachem 1 is okay, but Cyberware Multi-Tasking and Psi-Chi Unconscious Lead is not (x2). Multiple actions are a dangerous design decision for an RPG as it almost always fits Morolen's definition of a broken mechanic. The worse effect, in my opinion, than providing a massive boost in combat ability, is that it also leads to unequal player "stage time" (in combat or similar action scenes). Whilst EP has it's fair share of investigation, where there is action it would be boring as a player with 1 phase/action when the other players are getting 3 or more. On saving grace for EP is that in the default campaign this can be controlled to a degree due to egocasting -- anywhere Firewall sends the team that isn't local usually involves egocasting which helps baseline characters: "Sure your 'real' body back on Titan has Reflex Boosters and Neurachem 2, but for this Mars mission you get to pick a Ruster, Alpiner or Flexbot, same as everybody else."

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