Yeah, I would agree with Arenamontanus on this one; just because toxin filters [i]can[/i] filter out all potential toxins doesn't mean that they are always designed to do so. Someone who enjoys the effects of alcohol is not going to get a toxin filter implant that makes drinking it pointless. The same is true with any other vice you might like. However, I should also note that toxicity isn't necessary in enjoying something. Someone might like to smoke simply because they enjoy the sensation of smoke filling their lungs (that's why I used to do it). Someone might enjoy the burn of a good shot of vodka. In the short story Melt, someone is eating toxic Fugu testes that haven't been prepared in the traditional manner, just so they can feel the sensations of their body fighting the poison. For those sorts of people, there might be a very real addiction to these feelings and such without any real need for their toxic after-effects

One brief thought (or evil sabotage) ; would it filter "harmful" doses of oxygen from the bloodstream?

Lorsa wrote:

Alright, that's what I hoped. It's just that for medichines, it clearly states that they can be overridden whereas toxin filters does not. That made me believe that maybe these filters where more hardwired and out of control. But I like control, yes yes. And yes, that was in Neuromancer. Made Case (the character) try really hard to find something his liver and kidneys wouldn't filter out.

I'm torn on whether it's controllable via computer, or must be tailored upon implantation. I tend to lean toward the latter rather than the former, if only because bioware doesn't seem like it would be controllable from your mesh inserts. Now endocrine controls, that's a different story. They give you perfect control over your body's hormonal balance, and potentially allow you to shut down or activate organs within the body (since almost all organs are part and parcel to your hormone balance).

Lorsa wrote:

I think medichines does that. Toxin filters merely seem to block certain elements from entering the body in the first place.

Nah, poisons can still enter your body. Nothing is stopping you from swallowing a vial of arsenic. I think that toxin filters simply act like super-kidneys, filtering the bloodstream of any poisons that enter it at a very rapid pace (rapid enough to render any toxin non-lethal, and likely ineffectual). It might also include modifications to your blood vessels, preventing those toxic chemicals from exiting the bloodstream to do their damage in the first place. Lastly, it probably includes an immune system amplification, allowing your bodies immunoresponse to go after any toxins that end up passing the previous two safeties.

Sepherim wrote:

Also, one small note that has been set aside: as you point out, it is an ego addiction, not a morph one. This means it is a psychological addiction, not a physical one. So people could perfectly remain addicted even if they don't receive the physical side. Imagine a smoker that has such a habit that can't stop smoking, even if nicotine isn't filtered.

Exactly what I was talking about earlier. It's like a food addiction; the addiction is not related to some addictive chemical in the food. It's a habit. Drinkers and smokers might enjoy the feeling of smoke in their lungs or the burn of strong alcohol, without needing any of its toxic effects to desire it all the time. Plus, toxin filters likely don't trigger instantly. As the story in Melt displayed, a guy with toxin filters would eat a piece of fugu, his lips would change color as the poison flowed into him, then it would immediately go back to normal as the toxin filters cleaned house. I imagine that drug user can get at least a moment of sensation, which might be all they need. Plus, it opens up a whole new field of possible addictions. Maybe you'll meet someone who's addicted to a cocktail made up of arsenic and cyanide, that gives him one hell of a kick and a dizzy feeling before it gets flushed out of his system (plus, a wonderful almond flavor).

Xagroth wrote:

Now here is an interesting question: can the addiction be "simulated"? Easiest way to try would be to record a XP file of it and then run it each time you want to feed your ego addiction...

I think XP addiction is pretty real. Whether people get addicted to recordings of amazing interactive drug highs or great fantasies (or more disturbing snuff XP) depends on who they are. Addiction is, at its core, a form of mis-learning. When we feel pleasure the midbrain dopamine system signals to the forebrain that whatever it did right now was good and should be done again: a kind of learning signal that produces habits. Most drug addictions work by causing a dopanine release straight away, producing locked in behavior patterns. But obviously anything pleasurable could have similar effects. I am not sure standard XP can directly stimulate the dopamine system: it would be a very risky thing to do, since then you could just activate pleasure straight away and maximize addiction. Most likely XP is more of a cortical thing: you have certain experiences as if you were experiencing them, but only some emotional cues of how you are supposed to feel. The brain fills in the rest using your emotions rather than the emotions of the original person. But this is likely enough to make something fairly addictive: you select an XP that appeals to you, and in that XP you get experiences that stimulate your dopamine system. The forebrain learns that next time it can do the action that led to this situation (activating the XP) it should do it, and you are addicted.

Decivre wrote:

I'm torn on whether it's controllable via computer, or must be tailored upon implantation. I tend to lean toward the latter rather than the former, if only because bioware doesn't seem like it would be controllable from your mesh inserts.

It doesn't have to be mesh inserts that control the toxin filters - it would be trivial (for EP-level technology) to insert some neurological feedback control mechanism wired into the brain when inserting the upgraded liver/kidneys/lungs. So many other biomods are controllable through thought and practice, no reason these couldn't also be. I would think it would be something similar to holding your breath. When you're not thinking about it your body just absolutely filters all toxins, whereas if you consciously think about withholding the 'boosted' toxin filtering your morph downgrades to a more normal level of toxin filtering. And just like breathing, if you cease consciously stopping the response, say you imbibed enough to render you unconscious, the filters kick in again and start doing what they should be doing.

Lorsa wrote:

Toxin Filters: The morph gains an improved liver and kidneys and biological filters in its lungs. Characters with this augmentation are immune to all chemical and biological toxins, including everything from recreational chemicals to nerve agents to spoiled food. In addition, the character can safely and comfortably breathe smoke and drink salt water. Unlike medichines, toxin immunity prevents the character from experiencing even brief harm or discomfort from a toxin (medichines merely rapidly repair damage caused by the toxin and then remove it from the morph). This augmentation provides no resistance to concentrated acid, nanotechnological attacks, or similar destructive agents. Some characters with this augmentation learn to enjoy the taste of various chemical toxins like cyanide or arsenic.

This is a case where I think the core book is just too optimistic about how good some implants can be. I can certainly see enhanced kidneys using nanotech to remove salt from the blood and liver-like nano-tissues gobbling up toxin molecules. But all such processes are limited by chemical laws (see my post in the other drug thread on the Michaelis-Menten dynamics), and done using molecular systems that can themselves be poisoned (just insert a molecule that gums up the receptors - it might not be toxic to a human, but it destroys the implant function). The biggest problem is that there is no natural kind "toxin" - alcohol is produced naturally inside the body, as is barbiturates and some cyanides. I have a hard time imagining a device that could reliably filter out all bad stuff but not any substances that should be in the body. It is certainly feasible to filter out a long list of bad things, but there will be some things that are toxic the filter will not recognize. You can try to pattern it by the immune system, filtering out everything that is not part of the normal body chemistry: that will stop drugs, but also medicines, interfere with nanomachines and quite likely mess up metabolism when you are in extreme states it doesn't recognize. It would be fairly impractical. In my games I tone down the abilities of the toxin filter. It just gives a hefty bonus against chemicals it recognizes. It can be updated with new lists of things to screen or exceptions to let through. And it can be hacked or destroyed by poisoning it with the right chemicals (you need to know the specs to design them), as well as overloaded when there is too much of some toxins.

King Shere wrote:

Here is a overly optimistic hightech way a "toxin filter" could perform. Its actually not a filter, instead its a specialist fabber that produces blood (and its desired content) to given specs. The matter entering it is either disintergrated (turned into fabberfuel) or simply dumped/rerouted into the waste-disposal system.

That could work. It would also be very energy consuming (since it breaks and reassembles the molecular bonds of everything going into the body). I would expect some interesting cooling problems. Another solution is Freitas' vasculoid system: http://www.jetpress.org/volume11/vasculoid.html Essentially this device replaces the blood with a nanotech transport network. Probably increases DUR through the roof and gives immunity to a long list of things, at the price of being 100% dependent on a very complex nanosystem.

Decivre wrote:

Perhaps. But if you're like me and are still confused whether it should be innately controlled, endocrine controls should completely clarify the possibility. Hormones might be utilized to reduce the toxin filter's ability to absorb poisons, if they can be tailored to react to a specific hormone cocktail.

I'd be comfortable ruling that if a morph takes both Toxin Filters and Endocrine Control, the ego can then exert enough conscious control over its system to retard the liver's etc. function somewhat and allow enough drugs or alcohol to slip through to feel the effects.