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Rules Clarification: Opposed Tests

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Thu, 2012-01-05 07:51

scnd

Rules Clarification: Opposed Tests

I'm looking at page 119 of the core book, and i'm wondering about opposed tests.

Quote:
To make an Opposed Test, each character rolls d100 against a target number equal to the relevant skill(s ) along with any appropriate modifiers. If only one of the characters succeeds (rolls equal to or less than their target number), that character has won. If both succeed, the character who gets the [b]highest dice roll[/b] wins. If both characters fail, or they both succeed and [b]roll the same number[/b], then a deadlock occurs—the characters remain pitted against each other, neither gaining ground, until one of them takes another action and either breaks away or makes another Opposed Test.

So this means that two players are rolling against their skills, and the player with the smallest margin of success takes the test, correct? What I don't understand is why it says 'highest dice roll'. The way that its worded, it means that a player can have a skill of 55, roll a 30, and beat out a player with a much more epic roll; a player with a skill of 30 and rolling a 15. Maybe its all my experience in pulp environments to expect this all the time, but I expect the narrow margin of victory to be more important, play-wise, than the large margin of victory. The guy who somehow pulls through against the guy who does this for a living is a story worth telling, whereas the vet who promptly destroys the newb opposition, that's not really anything worth talking about. Mechanically, the change would encourage players to use skills which have low associated numbers to use them. So in my mind, this should read:

Quote:
To make an Opposed Test, each character rolls d100 against a target number equal to the relevant skill(s ) along with any appropriate modifiers. If only one of the characters succeeds (rolls equal to or less than their target number), that character has won. If both succeed, the character who gets the [b]lowest margin of success[/b] wins. If both characters fail, or they both succeed and roll the same [b]margin of success[/b], then a deadlock occurs—the characters remain pitted against each other, neither gaining ground, until one of them takes another action and either breaks away or makes another Opposed Test.

Any thoughts on this?

Thu, 2012-01-05 08:22

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Rules Clarification: Opposed Tests

I believe your confusion may stem from a misunderstanding of the MoS rules? Eclipse Phase post V.3 (the last major errata) uses a blackjack system for calculating MoS. You are trying to roll as close to your target number as possible without going over it, with your roll being your MoS. The larger your MoS, the better you did. So no, the player with the smaller MoS would not take the roll. The player with the higher MoS while still making it under their skill rating takes the test. So in your example of 30(55) vs 15(30) the first character clearly wins because his MoS is 30 while the other characters is only 15. I don't understand why only just making it (low MoS) would be worth more than something who completely nails it (high MoS), which is that you are suggesting?

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Thu, 2012-01-05 08:46

scnd

Re: Rules Clarification: Opposed Tests

As a player, I know i'm not going to use skills i'm not well trained in if i have to beat myself, and then beat the powerhouse with skills in that area. It might come from my savage worlds experience where I know rolling something that i don't have stats for, i still have a chance to succeed or even critical at; so the roll is still worth rolling. If i know that I have to roll low enough to beat my own scores, then compare that to a target number set by an opponent where my success may be not only unlikely but impossible, there are situations that i might just let my opponent roll first and just say 'fuck it, theres no point in me rolling because i can't possibly win'. So if my opponent rolls a 35(55) and I roll a 15(30); my mos is 15, his is 20. If the opponent rolls first, theres no way I can win, so theres no point in me rolling, minus the off chance of rolling a critical failure. I should roll the dice and succeed with my mos15 because I already beat the odds. Thats why we're using dice, right? to represent luck?

Thu, 2012-01-05 09:02

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Rules Clarification: Opposed Tests

Beating the odds isn't important unless you're a special and unique snowflake. Beating the guy who's *better* at this is the point (in this case ;) ). It's not like you're deciding whether or not to roll *during* a test; you just roll. And there are cases when, no, you have no chance. Finally, a critical success can have special effects, even in such cases. It sounds like you're playing a game, instead of a roleplaying game. :P

Thu, 2012-01-05 09:57

scnd

Re: Rules Clarification: Opposed Tests

Quote:
It sounds like you're playing a game, instead of a roleplaying game.

Is there a difference? Honestly, I don't see a good argument for the original ruling. I'm going to try it out both ways and keep the option open to house rule.

Thu, 2012-01-05 13:10

Herbo

Re: Rules Clarification: Opposed Tests

The mechanics of Eclipse Phase can easily be transfered to a more typical d100 system interpretation of roll under. But there isn't any raw probability difference between the roll under (limbo) and roll nearest (black jack). If you have a skill rating of 30, and your opponent has the relevant skill rating of 55...you are exactly as likely (other modifiers notwithstanding) to succeed(30% vs 55%). How excited you get about Margins of Success in an Opposed Test is all in the mindset. Getting pumped about Limbo rolls in a Black Jack system is a bit cross-wired expectation-wise. In the default mechanics of Eclipse Phase a roll of 01 is most likely a success but it's not nearly as exciting as rolling a 00 or something closer to your Target Number. I personally like the Black Jack system because the standard "roll under" mechanic for d100 games is less exciting to me. Obviously everyone's mileage will vary greatly. Again, it's easy enough to twist the system back around to Limbo, but it's not like Black Jack is hosing anyone out of their chance to shine.

Thu, 2012-01-05 13:32

Azathoth

Re: Rules Clarification: Opposed Tests

scnd wrote:
So if my opponent rolls a 35(55) and I roll a 15(30); my mos is 15, his is 20. If the opponent rolls first, theres no way I can win, so theres no point in me rolling, minus the off chance of rolling a critical failure. I should roll the dice and succeed with my mos15 because I already beat the odds. Thats why we're using dice, right? to represent luck?

Just to make sure we're on the same page, his mos is actually a 35 by the latest version. ;) And there is a way to win, you could roll a critical 00, 11, or 22, which usually trumps a regular success. :) I think it's all just point of view. Earlier you mention a low score as just barely making it, thereby being epic, so it should win. I see a high score that's near your target number as barely making it, and therefore being epic! The threshold of epicness is just different depending on your skill level, rather than it always being low, as I see it.

Thu, 2012-01-05 15:22

scnd

Re: Rules Clarification: Opposed Tests

Am i looking at MOS via the old system? Also I think i need to test it out and see how big 3% really is. Finally, if the system has changed so that mos starts at 00 instead of the target number (skill number), then i can better understand why the rules are done like they are; but i still don't know why the terminology doesn't rely on the mos mechanic. Conseptually, if mos starts at 00 then it changes my perspective of the opposed roll mechanic.

Thu, 2012-01-05 18:48

Herbo

Re: Rules Clarification: Opposed Tests

You quoted the third printing in your OP scnd, so you haven't gone insane :-). I was confused about Opposed tests when I first started EP a few months back too. MoS is just the number showing on the rolled die, starting with the automatic super duper success of 00 and heading on up to the Target Number.

Thu, 2012-01-05 20:16

#10

D-Miller

Re: Rules Clarification: Opposed Tests

The thing to remember is that in the latest version of the game MoS no longer has a margin in it at all, it's more a level of success rather than a margin of success. You want to roll as high as possible without rolling over your skill (target number). That's how I had to wrap my brain around MoS.

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-D

Fri, 2012-01-06 05:26

#11

Deadite

Re: Rules Clarification: Opposed Tests

Do criticals still trump MoS in combat? Specifically, does a critical success attack trump a successful higher MoS defence? Page 192 (step 5) seems to imply standard opposed critical vs MoS rules don't apply in this particular case.

Quote:
If both attacker and defender succeed in their tests, compare their dice rolls. If the attacker's dice roll is higher, the attack hits despite a spirited defense; otherwise, the attack fails to connect. Excellent Success: If the attacker rolled an Excellent Success (MoS of 30+), a solid hit is struck. Increase the Damage Value (DV) inflicted by +5. If the MoS is 60+, increase the DV by +10. Criticals: If the attacker rolls a critical success, the attack is armor-defeating, meaning that the defender's armor is bypassed completely—some kink or flaw was exploited, allowing the attack to get through completely.

Also (getting more off topic here, apologies), do the Excellent and Critical effects stack? In my recent game, my player rolled 66 for attack, making him potentially eligible for both Dv+10 for the Excellent success and armour bypassing for the Critical success. The defender rolled 93 for full defence Fray (target 100). I ruled that criticals still trump high MoS, and that both Excellent and Critical effects applied. It worked for that game but I not know if that's the rules as intended.

Fri, 2012-01-06 05:55

#12

Decivre

Re: Rules Clarification: Opposed Tests

Deadite wrote:
Do criticals still trump MoS in combat? Specifically, does a critical success attack trump a successful higher MoS defence? Page 192 (step 5) seems to imply standard opposed critical vs MoS rules don't apply in this particular case.

Yes criticals still trump MoS. As it says on page 119 under the core opposed test rules: "Note that critical successes trump high rolls in an Opposed Test—if both characters succeed and one rolls 54 while the other rolls 44, the critical roll of 44 wins." In combat situations, criticals and excellent successes tack on extra effects. GMs are also recommended to do the same in other situations. They still trump.

Deadite wrote:
Also (getting more off topic here, apologies), do the Excellent and Critical effects stack? In my recent game, my player rolled 66 for attack, making him potentially eligible for both Dv+10 for the Excellent success and armour bypassing for the Critical success. The defender rolled 93 for full defence Fray (target 100). I ruled that criticals still trump high MoS, and that both Excellent and Critical effects applied. It worked for that game but I not know if that's the rules as intended.

While there is no clarification in the book on this, I would recommend stacking the effects. Criticals are intended to be jaw-dropping moments (good or bad), so I don't see why you wouldn't want to make the effects as epic as possible by stacking them with excellent success effects as well.

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