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Networks

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Teh_Az Teh_Az's picture
Networks
I'm trying to fully understand how networks function within the context of the mesh. Also, is communication within planets instantaneous? I'm thinking QE communication is only needed if a message needs to travel the void of space. For starters: Are PANs pretty much like Personal Computers? Reading the Core Book, I can't help but notice the similarities they have with notebook journals or some kind of virtual room for yourself. If so, why the need for accounts within a certain locality? As for VPNs, I'm thinking these are specialized networks meant for a select few members brought together for some kind of purpose. Now these, I know, do require accounts for security purposes. As for Social Networks, do these things function more like Facebook, or are more like an online forum? Now, as for accounts, are these accounts a locality thing rather than a Mesh thing? I'm thinking certain stations or habitats place regulations on interfacing with a piece of the mesh they host since everything is connected through it. I can see the need for accounts, but I don't really know how they work logistically speaking. Are accounts given when someone enters a new habitat, or are accounts made when it is required of a person wishing to access a certain network? I'm thinking of starting a forum campaign you see and I'm thinking of using the Mesh as a location distinct from realspace. It becomes a medium for interaction between players, much like letter sending threads in medieval oriented roleplays, but is just much more sophisticated and complex in its capabilities. I'm thinking of splitting it into three kinds of networks, PANs which serve as personal workspaces for character, where they can hide their journals and whatnot; VPNs which work as secure workspaces meant for limited members ship and select player interaction; and social networks, a more public network for player interaction. I'd then define VPNs and SNs with the following information fields; Name: Location: Sponsor: Network Type: c-rep, @-rep, etc. and; Security:
sjmcc13 sjmcc13's picture
Re: Networks
Teh_Az wrote:
Also, is communication within planets instantaneous?
no, it is not instantaneousness, QE Bits are the only means of sending a message faster then the speed of light. But within the Solar System the delays will not be to long. On a planet the delay will not even be that noticeable.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Networks
[quote=sjmcc13QE Bits are the only means of sending a message faster then the speed of light. But within the Solar System the delays will not be to long. On a planet the delay will not even be that noticeable.[/quote] Technically, they're not FTL. Now I can't get Zeno's Paradox out of my head.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Networks
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Technically, they're not FTL. Now I can't get Zeno's Paradox out of my head.
Within the context of the distance covered, they are. Within the context of the space traveled (as the data moves instantaneously without touching any space in-between), they are immobile. It's a form of teleportation.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
root root's picture
Re: Networks
root@Networks [hr] Quibits don't break the speed of light limitation for communication of information. The entangled quibits are moved apart without disobeying relativity, and due to some interesting tricks of information theory, no information is moved over the intervening distance when one of them is observed.
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Networks
root wrote:
root@Networks [hr] Quibits don't break the speed of light limitation for communication of information. The entangled quibits are moved apart without disobeying relativity, and due to some interesting tricks of information theory, no information is moved over the intervening distance when one of them is observed.
Actually, current theory states that they don't break the limitation because they can't communicate information. The idea is that because someone observing entanglement on one end cannot discriminate motions of the particle that are natural from those that are artificially caused, there is no means by which we can send usable information. If Qubits can be used to send information (as they do in EP), they do actually break the luminal limitations of information transmission. Of course, this would merely open a new field of study as to whether time is an element of the universe, or a local element of matter and energy (as special relativity stipulates). If the latter is true, then time travel suddenly becomes a possibility. If the former is true, then time travel remains impossible, and causality needs a rewrite.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
root root's picture
Re: Networks
root@Networks [hr] Suppose you have a string that you have set up a predictable oscillation on. You can take a look at two points and see that they have equal magnitude and opposite sign. If you stretch this string out as you move from point A to point B at less than the speed of light, you can carry the information with you that these two points are still in phase and have equal magnitude and opposite sign. Later, you look at the point you've been carrying the information for. Presto, you now know what the sign and magnitude of the other dot is on the other side of the oscillation, no matter the distance between the two points. You have transmitted no information over the wire, you just carried it in such a way that it would still be consistent when you look at it in the future. There is no spooky action at a distance to worry about.
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LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
Re: Networks
[i]Eclipse Phases[/i] actually uses two forms of quantum-entanglement communications. The first kind is bog-standard quantum-entangled communications, using entangled qubits with superpositioned states that require readings of the state to be transported from place to place as the key to break the ciphertext into plaintext. The second kind uses magical qubits that conveniently ignore everything about known physics in order to allow communications across the entire Milky Way galaxy, but still doesn't break causality. At least, that's what the equipment-section told me.
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Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Networks
root wrote:
Quibits don't break the speed of light limitation for communication of information.
Quantum entanglement communication does break that limit. With the plethora of worms-out-of-cans issues for causality I never tire to mention across threads. One recent paper pointed out that even standard quantum entanglement that cannot be used for communication can occur across time, providing weird effects such as teleportation in time. http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/26270/ And that is merely non-communicative entanglement. The stuff you could do with Eclipse Phase's QE comms in this kind of experiment staggers the mind...
Extropian
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Networks
I'm still not sure how instantaneous communication causes cross-time communication. Time dialation caused by differences in speed would be no different to time differences caused by people, say, in simspaces working at different acceleration speeds. Other than that, two people standing on Mars and Luna are both doing things at the same time as each other. Just because there's no lag in communication doesn't mean they're talking into the past. Any transmissions at light speed just get there a few minutes after they're sent, that's all.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Networks
LatwPIAT wrote:
[i]Eclipse Phases[/i] actually uses two forms of quantum-entanglement communications. The first kind is bog-standard quantum-entangled communications, using entangled qubits with superpositioned states that require readings of the state to be transported from place to place as the key to break the ciphertext into plaintext. The second kind uses magical qubits that conveniently ignore everything about known physics in order to allow communications across the entire Milky Way galaxy, but still doesn't break causality. At least, that's what the equipment-section told me.
Actually, the "first form" is not quantum communications at all. It's quantum encryption. Essentially, two different parties read the motions of two entangled particles, and use it to produce an encryption key based on those particles movements. Since both parties are watching entangled particles (which move in identical ways), they should both get the same encryption key. So long as there are no other parties capable of observing these entangled particles, the encryption key essentially functions as the ultimate never-ending one-time pad... producing an unbreakable cipher through which perfectly secure communications can be transmitted. The information still only goes the speed of light (or the speed of whatever medium you happen to use), and does not utilize teleportation for the actual communication. Look up quantum encryption for more info on this. Of the two utilizations of quantum teleportation in the setting, this one is the one we know to be the most feasible.
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
I'm still not sure how instantaneous communication causes cross-time communication. Time dialation caused by differences in speed would be no different to time differences caused by people, say, in simspaces working at different acceleration speeds. Other than that, two people standing on Mars and Luna are both doing things at the same time as each other. Just because there's no lag in communication doesn't mean they're talking into the past. Any transmissions at light speed just get there a few minutes after they're sent, that's all.
Special relativity stipulates that time itself is relative, and a component of matter rather than space. As such, one object's time is independent of another object that is not connected by locality. Through utilization of quantum teleportation and multiple bodies moving and varied speeds (some at very low, others at near-light), one can actually send information backward in time. It sounds weird, but it would make sense if I could find you the charts that explained it to me. The gist of it is that so long as time is relative, time travel is possible if one can send information faster than the speed of light. If time is not relative (and special relativity is wrong in this regard), then it isn't possible to travel through time. Unfortunately, we have yet to find a way to prove this aspect of special relativity wrong (yet).
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Teh_Az Teh_Az's picture
Re: Networks
Uh, so. Anyone care to answer some of my questions concerning networks?
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Networks
Teh_Az wrote:
Uh, so. Anyone care to answer some of my questions concerning networks?
Sorry about that, Teh_Az.
Teh_Az wrote:
I'm trying to fully understand how networks function within the context of the mesh. Also, is communication within planets instantaneous? I'm thinking QE communication is only needed if a message needs to travel the void of space.
In relatively short distances like between two users on the same planet, QE communication is not necessary. Light is fast enough that it could circumnavigate Earth 8 times over in a single second, so any light-speed means of communication is effectively instantaneous over such a distance. You see this now with the internet, where lag is measured in milliseconds. However, interplanetary distances start to become an issue. The lag from here to the sun is almost 10 minutes. The lag from Uranus to Saturn if they are on opposite sides of the system is over a week. If you are on the edge of the Oort cloud and send info to the inner system, it won't get there for almost a full year! And then, there are exoplanets where communication to Earth over light-speed methods would take decades, centuries or even millennia to arrive. In these situations, when information needs to get there NOW, QE communications is a must.
Teh_Az wrote:
For starters: Are PANs pretty much like Personal Computers? Reading the Core Book, I can't help but notice the similarities they have with notebook journals or some kind of virtual room for yourself. If so, why the need for accounts within a certain locality?
Mesh inserts or ectos are personal computers. A PAN is actually a localized network of devices meant to directly interact with one another, for a single user. For instance, on your desktop you probably have a computer, monitor, keyboard, a game control, printer, and a few other peripherals hooked up to your computer. That would be your PAN at home. When you are on the go, your laptop, phone and wireless earpiece might be bluetooth interlinked... which would make that a PAN as well. PAN is a term derived from LAN and WAN... whereas a WAN is a large network of nonlocal computers (ie. the Internet), and a LAN is a smaller network of local computers (if you have multiple computers connected to a hub or server directly, that's a LAN), a PAN is a personal network of peripheral devices.
Teh_Az wrote:
As for VPNs, I'm thinking these are specialized networks meant for a select few members brought together for some kind of purpose. Now these, I know, do require accounts for security purposes.
Essentially. VPNs today include multiregional business networks linked through the net, and private chat networks. Hamachi is probably one of the more commonly known VPNs amongst gamers and the like.
Teh_Az wrote:
As for Social Networks, do these things function more like Facebook, or are more like an online forum?
Probably a mixture. Social networks in EP are likely far more complex and have a far larger infrastructure than today's social networks. They have complex reputation systems, communication capabilities, third-party data acquisition (photo tagging in Facebook is an example of this), and other multiparty interaction capabilities. Some social networks might even have their own simspace networks.
Teh_Az wrote:
Now, as for accounts, are these accounts a locality thing rather than a Mesh thing? I'm thinking certain stations or habitats place regulations on interfacing with a piece of the mesh they host since everything is connected through it. I can see the need for accounts, but I don't really know how they work logistically speaking. Are accounts given when someone enters a new habitat, or are accounts made when it is required of a person wishing to access a certain network?
Accounts in EP likely consist of decentralized multi-authority verification networks. This basically means that creation of an account involves some authority server, and you are capable of using this account at any location which can verify your login to that server, or to other servers with which it shares its data. A modern day example of this would be OpenID. In the universe of Eclipse Phase, these would be far more secure and stable than today.
Teh_Az wrote:
I'm thinking of starting a forum campaign you see and I'm thinking of using the Mesh as a location distinct from realspace. It becomes a medium for interaction between players, much like letter sending threads in medieval oriented roleplays, but is just much more sophisticated and complex in its capabilities. I'm thinking of splitting it into three kinds of networks, PANs which serve as personal workspaces for character, where they can hide their journals and whatnot; VPNs which work as secure workspaces meant for limited members ship and select player interaction; and social networks, a more public network for player interaction. I'd then define VPNs and SNs with the following information fields; Name: Location: Sponsor: Network Type: c-rep, @-rep, etc. and; Security:
That sounds pretty good, actually. I'll probably discuss this in a later post, though.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]