Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

This is what a thermobaric explosion looks like

8 posts / 0 new
Last post
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
This is what a thermobaric explosion looks like
Young Freud Young Freud's picture
Re: This is what a thermobaric explosion looks like
Smokeskin wrote:
http://www.sonicbomb.com/iv1.php?vid=blu96_fae&id=785&w=500&h=400&ttitle...
Yes and no. While this is the extreme example of what a thermobaric explosion looks like, they would be a rarity in EP, mostly because of they would be restricted by the environment they could be deployed in. You might see them on Mars or Venus, but never in an asteroid colony or cylinder. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAQ-7O3YFWo&feature=related]The yield associated with the RPO-A Bumblebee[/url], however, is what most players would be familiar with.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: This is what a thermobaric explosion looks like
Young Freud wrote:
Yes and no. While this is the extreme example of what a thermobaric explosion looks like, they would be a rarity in EP, mostly because of they would be restricted by the environment they could be deployed in. You might see them on Mars or Venus, but never in an asteroid colony or cylinder. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAQ-7O3YFWo&feature=related]The yield associated with the RPO-A Bumblebee[/url], however, is what most players would be familiar with.
Very true. Thermobaric weapons simply don't work in vacuum. There may be equivalent weapons for such an environment, however, perhaps utilizing vacuum's tendency to disperse matter to better spread the fuel prior to detonation. They would probably have to contain oxidizers, however.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Re: This is what a thermobaric explosion looks like
Young Freud wrote:
Yes and no. While this is the extreme example of what a thermobaric explosion looks like, they would be a rarity in EP, mostly because of they would be restricted by the environment they could be deployed in. You might see them on Mars or Venus, but never in an asteroid colony or cylinder.
Obviously it is a gravity bomb with a much larger yield than grenades and seekers, but I still think it was some decent footage of the effect. Most of the time, I wouldn't see any problem with explosives going off in a habitat, unless it was a really small or thin-skinned one. We're talking about nothing more than a few hundred grams of explosive or fuel, compared to the amazing structural strength needed to keep a spinning habitat together. A thermobaric grenade probably wouldn't be able to knock over a normal reinforced concrete building - there's no way it could damage anything but the smallest habitat.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: This is what a thermobaric explosion looks like
Smokeskin wrote:
Most of the time, I wouldn't see any problem with explosives going off in a habitat, unless it was a really small or thin-skinned one. We're talking about nothing more than a few hundred grams of explosive or fuel, compared to the amazing structural strength needed to keep a spinning habitat together.
Habitats are constructed to hold together: the parts act against the air pressure and tension forces due to rotation. Paranoid engineering probably has a safety factor of 10: hull sections should hence be able to handle an overpressure of 1 megapascal. The core structure of the ship or station is even sturdier. TNT gets up to an overpressure of 27 megapascal close to the detonation. That ought to be very bad for hulls. Fuel air explosives get up to a few megapascals, so they might be a bit less dangerous. However, it is a pressure sustained for a while and extended over a sizeable area, and this means that it will exert bending or shearing forces on parts of the hull where there are pressure differences (such as where an airtight bulkhead ends). But there is also the problem that while the compressive or tensile strength of the station or environment might be more than adequate, the blast can provide forces in the "wrong" direction that easily wrecks it. Concrete has an excellent compressive strength (~82 megapascals) but less than 10% the tensile or bending strength - buildings tend to crumble when subjected to sideways pressure. Fullerene cables can handle tens of gigapascals but will just slacken if subjected to pressure. So a rotating station with an explosion will get a brief destabilization as part of it "lifts" and then "falls back", which is then transmitted as a fierce jerk by the other cables to the rest of the station. They better be attached very firmly or they will just rip loose and the whole unbalanced wheel will start to disintegrate. I also suspect that there will be a surprising number of pieces of a station that will not handle the blast as one would wish even in a well-designed station - and in a retrofitted scum barge things will be worse. Oops, the explosive release clamps of all escape pods activated! If the hull is able to handle the overpressure, then the extra gas has to spread out. Which of course means a blast wave in a confined environment (unless we are talking about a big, open air cylinder). That is going to be very bad for the inhabitants, not to mention things like life support systems. If you are really lucky pressure bulkheads are in place and closed. Then you only lose one section and everyone in it. Ah, yes, fires in space can get pretty exciting too. In microgravity we can get impressive dust explosions (nature's own fuel air explosives). Sprinkler systems activating close to a really hot source can cause a secondary steam explosion. And while we are at it, heat is bad for the strength of metals and even worse for supermaterials like fullerenes or graphenes. It is at this point you start wishing the hull had actually breached, since a metal fire in a closed environment eating away at core structures is far worse than just a hull breach.
Extropian
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: This is what a thermobaric explosion looks like
Decivre wrote:
Thermobaric weapons simply don't work in vacuum. There may be equivalent weapons for such an environment, however, perhaps utilizing vacuum's tendency to disperse matter to better spread the fuel prior to detonation. They would probably have to contain oxidizers, however.
I don't think you can get enough gas volume to make a vacuum-functional bomb work. In air, any sudden expansion is transmitted by the ambient gas as an overpressure wave. In space you need to first supply enough gas to transmit the wave and then extra gas volume to provide a pressure pulse. This is also why nukes are so surprisingly "weak" in space and mainly work by direct radiation. Thermobaric weapons tuned for venusian or titanian atmospheres could be nasty given the higher ambient pressure - the overpressure carries further, like explosions in water. On Venus you want something that burns carbon dioxide, presumably some nasty halogen mixture or fine particles of metal like magnesium. On Titan I suspect it is too much work to burn the nitrogen (and too little other stuff), so rather you would just release a cloud of (say) hydrogen and oxygen (or small explosive pellets) and allow them to react. Of course, there is always dioxygen difluoride...
Extropian
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Re: This is what a thermobaric explosion looks like
Arenamontanus wrote:
But there is also the problem that while the compressive or tensile strength of the station or environment might be more than adequate, the blast can provide forces in the "wrong" direction that easily wrecks it. So a rotating station with an explosion will get a brief destabilization as part of it "lifts" and then "falls back", which is then transmitted as a fierce jerk by the other cables to the rest of the station. They better be attached very firmly or they will just rip loose and the whole unbalanced wheel will start to disintegrate.
Don't you see the forces going in the right direction though? The structure is designed to withstand air pressure and provide centripetal force (at least when we're dealing with the floot, the ends of a rotating cylinder is different as here the centripetal force won't go against the direction of the blast).
Arenamontanus wrote:
I also suspect that there will be a surprising number of pieces of a station that will not handle the blast as one would wish even in a well-designed station
That's much like what we see in normal buildings - some stuff will take damage
Arenamontanus wrote:
If the hull is able to handle the overpressure, then the extra gas has to spread out. Which of course means a blast wave in a confined environment (unless we are talking about a big, open air cylinder). That is going to be very bad for the inhabitants, not to mention things like life support systems. If you are really lucky pressure bulkheads are in place and closed. Then you only lose one section and everyone in it.
When I think habitats, I think big, open air cylinders. The smallest of habitats, I can see catastrophic effects from grenades, but once you get into even just 100s of people, air volume gets so big it won't matter.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: This is what a thermobaric explosion looks like
Smokeskin wrote:
Don't you see the forces going in the right direction though? The structure is designed to withstand air pressure and provide centripetal force (at least when we're dealing with the floot, the ends of a rotating cylinder is different as here the centripetal force won't go against the direction of the blast).
I was mainly thinking of the directions where the force of the explosion and pressure/gravity are working together. The slightly less armoured sections will be more vulnerable.
Quote:
Arenamontanus wrote:
I also suspect that there will be a surprising number of pieces of a station that will not handle the blast as one would wish even in a well-designed station
That's much like what we see in normal buildings - some stuff will take damage
But in a normal building your survival isn't dependent on the boiler working perfectly. Just consider how doors easily could become jammed by pressure differences and slight shearing. Or fissures in the rock of a beehive habitat that might suddenly open. In a big O'Neill cylinder the main threat would be a local puncture, but the pressure wave would be relatively minor as it spread out. In a smaller habitat like I was thinking, then enclosed spaces will make the explosion much worse.
Extropian