So, in order to get rid of "bean counting bullets," keep the potential of running out of ammo mid-fight, and work within the tone and spirit of the setting, I thought of implementing the following house rule (inspired by Monte Cook's Numenera and the first Mass Effect game):
Slight Modification to the Way Ammunition Works (A Setting Change)
The magazines of modern kinetic weapons do not actually contain rounds. Instead, each magazine is a specialized nano-assembler capable of producing exactly one thing: the type of round it is programmed and designed to create. Meanwhile, beam weapons continue to use batteries.
Do not bother counting ammunition. Instead, any time you fire a weapon, after resolving your attack, calculate the number of rounds you would fire in the rules as written as a percentile value (rounded up) of the total number of rounds the gun being fired could normally hold. Roll a “clip check” as a percentile roll; if you roll within the value calculated, your weapon’s clip is depleted. For example, every time you shoot a machine gun using full automatic fire you roll a “clip check;” if you roll between 1-20 (10/50=20%) you deplete the machinegun’s ammunition and must reload the weapon in order to fire it again. When firing a single shot from a light pistol, you deplete its clip’s ammunition on a roll of 1-7.
I like the mechanic. But, I was wondering, how well would it really fit in terms of setting? In many places, nanotechnology is limited/controlled. Of course, the idea of these clips is that, for one reason or another, they can produce only one thing: the specific type of bullet they were designed to produce. Trying to make the clip produce anything else basically requires one to go to a larger/master nano-assembler and modify the clip (basically the same thing as purchasing more bullets). So, in terms of setting, would such an idea work? Is there some element that I am not considering which would cause this idea to create setting based problems?
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What if weapon clips were mini nano-assemblers?
Wed, 2013-10-30 14:13
#1
Cyber-Dave
What if weapon clips were mini nano-assemblers?
Wed, 2013-10-30 15:00
#2
Leodiensian
First of all, how long would
First of all, how long would it take to fab fresh bullets? Nanotechnological construction is fairly slow in Eclipse Phase. Would these weapons only be capable of short bursts/single fire?
Second of all, these guns would still need to be "reloaded" except instead of putting in more bullets, you're putting in more feeder mass for the nanomachines. The bullets have to come from somewhere, so every so often you need to stick a block of iron in your gun.
Thirdly, nanotech is hugely restricted across most of the Solar System, especially in the Inner System and the Jovian Republic. The traditional economies don't want people making their own bullets instead of buying them, so this is the sort of gun that only autonomists would have and would be highly illegal outside of autonomist space.
Finally, you just added a huge weakness to the weapon. Namely, EMPs. All it takes is a single EMP grenade and your gun becomes unable to make bullets because the nanomachines were disabled, while railguns and standard chemical-propulsion kinetic weapons operate fine. This also means your guns don't work in high radiation environments such as, say, space.
In practical terms, you're really not changing anything. The guns still need to be 'reloaded' but you're actually just adding on unnecessary complications that are diminishing, not improving, the overall effect. It's like how Mass Effect 2 and 3 operated on typical gun-logic while still maintaining future-fluff about how their guns worked ("it's not bullets, it's heat sinks!"). I think you're right in that bullet counting can be dull, but the easy solution is simple - only ask players to keep track of bullets for special occasions such as the use of full auto or for high power, low capacity weapons.
Wed, 2013-10-30 16:13
#3
Cyber-Dave
Uggggh. I just wrote a post
Uggggh. I just wrote a post and lost it when my computer crashed. Ok, let’s try take 2.
No, I am not really changing anything. Guns still need to be reloaded! But, I would not be diminishing (or drastically improving) the overall effect. I would just be changing it to something that I think works a little better in game. I might scrap this idea. But, before I do, I would like to respond to some of your questions/concerns (to see if I can make the idea work).
No. The construction of these rounds would be very quick. To explain that, the rounds would be described as contain very specific types of nano-fabrication machines designed to produce one specific type of product. This allows them to build what they are specialized at building at a much quicker rate, but it stops them from being able to build anything else.
Absolutely! That is why I don’t think the inner systems would have a problem with this particular technology. But, I will write more on that in a moment.
In terms of the corps, the thing is, people would still have to buy “bullets.” These magazines frequently burn themselves out. As a result, people must often carry around more than one magazine, and magazines must frequently be “recharged” with raw materials and specialized nano-bots. The actual price-point of using these weapons would not change very much, nor would the technique of ammunition acquisition in the inner systems. The only thing that would change is the narrative of distribution: you don’t buy prefabbed bullets, you pay to refill magazines with raw materials and specialized nanotechnology.
That would also help me believable explain why weapons no longer have recoil. The truth is, the description surrounding why guns are recoilless sounds like a physical impossibility to me; its Clark’s statement that sufficiently advanced technology is not discernible from magic in operation. If that is going to be the case, I would rather make the bullets even more alien (in mechanics and flavor) than they currently are. Saying that you pretty much shoot swarms of nannobots that assemble a bullet on the fly does that (for me). Mechanically speaking, not having to count bullets, instead rolling a “burnout” chance after each shot, also helps to model that alien “future-shock” feeling.
That being said, I agree on the Jovian’s not wanting to use such technology. They would still use weapons that require bullet counting as per the normal rules as written. In order to help model the “no nanotechnology, but superior warefare capabilities” theme of the Jovians, I would probably add some minor house rules designed to model the differences in Jovian tech: all Jovian weapons have an additional -2 AP over that listen in the rules as written (to help make their bullets feel more mechanically “solid”). Using a Jovian firearm requires bullet counting as per the rules as written. Jovian firearms also impose recoil: for every 1 round fired from a pistol or sniper rifle, 2 rounds fired from an SMG, or 3 rounds fired from an assault rifle or machine gun, a character suffers an accumulating -10 penalty to their skill check to shoot any kinetic firearms; this penalty can be reset after 1 Action Phase spent during which no actions are used to shoot a kinetic firearm.
Um, the standard chemical and rail weapons would not operate fine. Standard chemical weapons are electronically triggered in eclipse phase. Railguns are fired via electromagnetic propulsion. That means that an EMP would damage such weapons the same way it would damage nanomachines, no? Same goes for high radiation environments…
Given these responses, does my idea sound like it would work? Or, is this still a fools errand?
Wed, 2013-10-30 18:02
#4
LatwPIAT
If you don't want to count
If you don't want to count bullets, I'd recommend just using that mechanic as an abstraction, instead of trying to make up reasons for why it's that way. As you've written it, it's entirely possible to empty the magazine in the first round of combat through bad luck, which doesn't reflect well that, to the best of my knowledge, people tend to enter combat with filled magazines if possible, and would still do this even if their magazines were nanofactories manufacturing bullets.
It's also an incredibly unrealistic idea for the simple reason that the space used by the bullet-nanofactory could be better spent on more magazines, which are more reliable.
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Wed, 2013-10-30 19:14
#5
Cyber-Dave
LatwPIAT wrote:If you don't
Fair enough. I guess I will just add a minor recoil rule to all weapons and be done with it. This sort of mechanic is probably better suited to a post apocalyptic game where the characters don't really understand the technology they are using. Thanks for the input everyone!
Thu, 2013-10-31 09:34
#6
Leodiensian
Cyber-Dave wrote:
It would still be very slow to make specialist ammo such as biters; they're much more complicated than just propellant and slug. You could essentially sculpt the basic bullets quickly but not much else. And don't forget about the propellant! So the feeder slabs aren't just iron, they're iron plus a lot of other stuff that needs sorting through.
Not how nanofabbing works. The hardware is almost insignificant compared to the importance of the software. This the reason the Inner System economies don't like nanofabrication technology being publicly available is because they can make ANYTHING as long as you have the code. So some enterprising hacker will get hold of one of these guns (and because this is sci fi, hackers are EVERYWHERE), jailbreak it and make anything at superspeed by nanofabbing. Even if you try to impose some hardware limitations, the same thing applies - all it takes is one person figuring out the right way to tinker with it (and because this is sci fi, engineers are EVERYWHERE) and suddenly they've got an extremely fast make-anything-machine.
No, because this is the Magic Space Future everything important is EM-shielded because almost everything is electronic in nature at some level - including a sizable proportion of the population. The main purpose of using EM pulse weapons is to disrupt communications (because you can't EM-shield radio waves) and to mess up nanomachines because they're too small too have integrated shielding. Now, you could have it say that the GUN acts as EM shielding for the nanomachines (which can't be shielded themselves) but it definitely puts paid to that "assemble bullets in flight" idea you were floating before.
Honestly, leaving aside the part where you seem to be going to an awful lot of effort for something not appreciably better than a regular gun, it still sounds too 'magic tech' for humans even in Eclipse Phase - a huge setting element is that the "sufficiently advanced tech = magic" thing (which IS in Eclipse Phase) is where the game stops being hard sci fi and starts being HORROR. The sufficiently advanced tech is in the hands of the scary monsters that lurk in the shadows (TITANs and the ETI, for instance) because they have technological understandings of the universe far above our own.
Thu, 2013-10-31 11:13
#7
Cyber-Dave
I have come to agree. Thank
I have come to agree. Thank you for the input. It helped me form my own opinion. So, I am going to approach my idea from a different direction. I think I will just add a rule that looks something like this:
Futuristic Kinetic Weaponry is Virtually Recoilless
The futuristic kinetic weaponry in Eclipse Phase is virtually recoilless, but there is a certain minimum amount of recoil that cannot be overcome. Any time a character shoots more than one single kinetic projectile using a Complex action, they accumulate a stacking -1 recoil penalty per projectile shot to attacks made with kinetic projectile weapons. This penalty is specific to the character, not the weapon. In order to reset this value to its base value, a character must avoid making any attacks using kinetic projectile weapons for one Action Phase during which they can take actions.
Every character also starts with a recoil compensation stat equal to double their SOM/10. Recoil penalties are subtracted from a character’s recoil compensation before they are subtracted from their actual skill checks. Only once your recoil compensation becomes zero do you suffer the effects of recoil. When you reset your recoil to your base value, you also reset your recoil compensation to your base value.
Such recoil effects people in a very minor way (compared to the effect of recoil in real life, or a game like Shadowrun 5e), but it still gives "just enough" recoil that my suspension of disbelief doesn't get broken. How about this rule? Does it seem more workable? It is pretty much a direct rip-off of the SR 5e recoil rules (but with a MUCH smaller decrease in accuracy as a result of recoil).
Of course, this means that "bean counting" will still be in play, but whatever. Maybe I will bring actual beans to the table (handing them out to players to represent their bullets, and asking them to hand beans back to me whenever they shoot their gun). :P
Wed, 2013-11-06 21:50
#8
thezombiekat
The logical problem I see is
The logical problem I see is that a fixed amount of feed stock will always produce the same number of bullets.
2 clips both start with 500 grams of feed stock to produce bullets with a 25 gram mass. One clip rolls badly and produces only a single 3 round burst where did 425 grams go, the other keeps rolling well and fires 100 3 round bursts, where did 7 kilograms come from.
Also in a combat situation how many bullets you have remaining in your gun is one of the things you consider before trying something. There are some actions you just don’t take unless you know you have enough bullets to finish the job.
Oh and EP guns are not recoilless. IRL firearm design has made great strides in reducing the impact of recoil on accuracy since the development of automatic weapons, this will have continued but not to the point where there is no recoil or no affect from recoil. If they was no effect on accuracy from recoil 3 round burst would do 3 times as much damage as a single shot. Apparently with the improved designs and the timing of the system, there is enough time between bursts to recover from the recoil before you fire again.
For somebody that was complaining about the complexity of counting bullets you’re in a hurry to add a complicated recoil mechanic.
For counting bullets easily I like graph paper. You draw a box around a number of squares equal to the size of a clip. And fill in boxes as you use bullets. You can draw many clips on a page to track different weapons, spare magazines and different ammunition types.
Fri, 2013-11-08 17:00
#9
Wyvernjack
Biggest error with this idea
Biggest error with this idea is the "faster, specialized assemblies." as they are already a thing.
Assembly requires a programmed blueprint. It won't go faster just because the nanites have only one such blueprint in their hive.
The idea as is basically changes nothing. You still have to track how many rounds a feedstock-clip can produce and how much a gun holds as well as how much you fired. Same thing, different fluff (not that that's bad.)
Might want to consider a nano-hive implant with promethean nanites, which can produce items like a fabber, changing feedstock into bullets.
Sat, 2013-11-09 01:22
#10
thezombiekat
If you decided to let a clip
If you decided to let a clip sized nanofaber make bullets as fast as you can fire them the big advantage would be choosing bullet type on the fly. The bullets wouldn’t even need to be nanofabed from scratch, they could be prebuilt modules capable of being assembled in different ways.
Sat, 2013-11-09 02:36
#11
Wyvernjack
On the other hand. A Spindle
On the other hand. A Spindle is pretty darn close to the same function. Instead of cable, it could perhaps create bullet formed bits. Though, it still wouldn't change anything mechanically other than using scraps for ammo, which is one of the railgun's few upsides.
Sat, 2013-11-09 15:30
#12
Cyber-Dave
thezombiekat wrote:
Good call! I like this explanation. I can now live with the "virtually reconciles" EP kinetic weapons as is without rupturing my sense of verisimilitude. Thanks!