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Vibroblades

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NoFace NoFace's picture
Vibroblades
How large are vibroblades (pg 334)? Are they a knife sized contraption, or something larger like a short sword? Mechanically speaking, how do they vibrate? Are they a micro-chainsaw type device with spinning teeth? Or are they just a blade that saws forwards and backwards with high frequency?
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Vibroblades
Basically a vibroblade is a sharpened weapon of reinforced material, with a generator built into it. The generator causes the blade of the weapon to vibrate at supersonic speeds, and it uses this vibration to amplify it's ability to cut. Think of someone trying to cut through something with a blunt object, like a spoon. Obviously it won't cut very well, but if you keep slicing that spoon back and forth over the surface for a long time, the friction will eventually make a mark no matter how blunt it is. Vibroblades use this trick on an actual bladed object, essentially producing micro-friction between the cutting surface and the target. The blade shakes against the target at supersonic speeds, basically stroking itself against the other surface hundreds or thousands of times over, even in a short moment of being in contact. The result is a potent and dangerous weapon. Hope that helps.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Vibroblades
I always pictured a vibroblade like an electronic carving knife. But yes the principle is that your slicing as your cutting so you tend to cut deeper into an object then you would with a straight blade. The only two downsides is that the blade will dull faster and it is nosier then a standard blade.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Vibroblades
A device I saw demonstrated in a course on medical engineering was an exponentially tapering metal rod, with an ultrasound generator at the thick end. As the vibration travelled along the taper, it got more concentrated and the end the rod released all of the energy in a very narrow region. It cut through flesh like butter. One could imagine a knife working the same way: at the centre of the blade there is a piezoelectric array producing ultrasound vibrations travelling outwards. The blade becomes thinner and thinner, focusing the sound energy into a cutting plane around the edge. Note that with EP tech we can improve it quite a lot. Obviously the blade can be made from molecular-precision materials with very cool acoustic properties (laminated diamond designed to transmit ultrasound and resist cracking, for example). The generators can be smart about when to cut by having sensors detecting whether there is anything near the edge: if it is just air, there is no point in wasting energy. When cutting there will be reflected vibrations possibly harming the blade; adapting the frequency to the acoustic impedance of the surrounding material can protect the blade and make it better at cutting. I would probably put most of this regulation in firmware rather than software, because otherwise a hacker might just program the blade to shatter itself - although fully tweakable knives could also be programmed to use particular frequencies suited for particular targets, like the particular armor model the enemy is using. Another design would be a microscale chainsaw. Imagine taking a chainsaw and scaling down the teeth while increasing the speed, perhaps even having several parallel lines of teeth. Various smart control could make it able to avoid kickback or snagging on hard fibrous material. Nanomaterials allow very sharp teeth, able to separate materials with less force than wider teeth. However, there is a balance between teeth width and damage resistance: I suspect the ideal teeth width is not nanoscopic since they shouldn't break too easily when subjected to macro-forces. Having very small teeth also provides a smaller cutting area, but the scaling relations here get messy (I have excluded a paragraph of calculations here that didn't lead anywhere). However, for intimidation a loud buzzing and visible sharp edges are a must: maybe they can be generated by a separate system ("My muse flipped through the settings. Home-use added a yellow-black warning band around the edge, a safety volume in AR overlay and a sharp beeping noise. The street-fight settings mostly buzzed menacingly and showed sinister moving glints around the edges. The stealth mode was conveniently dark, silent and unmarked.") Incidentally, the idea of having the teeth change direction is probably bad since it would require a lot of energy dissipation inside the saw (done right it would likely end up like the ultrasonic knife above). But with nanoblades one could have alternating chains moving in opposite directions. This could induce some hefty shear forces that would tear many materials, keep the angular momentum to zero (easier handling) and only require one cutting edge per blade. Again, smart torque management is probably a must to make a blade that keeps. In the chainsaw case I can imagine a number of overlapping but small (a few millimetres) chains being run separately, stopping when not in contact with anything to cut and setting their torque depending on resistance. A truly complex (and likely over-designed) vibroknife might even remove damaged links and add reserve links while in use.
Extropian
Bloodwork Bloodwork's picture
Re: Vibroblades
To answer the first question, I would say they are sword-sized. The only thing I base this on is it's damage dice roll. The diamond ax and mono-sword are both relatively large and have a damage of 2d10 as does the vibroblade.
That which doesn't kill you usually succeeds on the second attempt.
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Vibroblades
For the damage it does, the weapon would have to be at least the size of a short sword (if not a full broad sword length). No matter how sharp a knife is, it can't cut as deep as a sword and thus can't do as much damage.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Vibroblades
TBRMInsanity wrote:
No matter how sharp a knife is, it can't cut as deep as a sword and thus can't do as much damage.
Hmm, if I can easily make 10 cm deep cuts through your anatomy without being impeded much by bone then I think you are in serious trouble. Is there *any* part of your anatomy that can be hit without seriously impairing effects? (I think a hand or a foot might be best, but even there the bleeding is going to be very nasty and fast; a shoulder hit is going to sever big arteries) My impression is that swords are more damaging than knives is because that the longer blade makes it easier to hit, and then more force (from slowing the higher kinetic energy) can be brought into cutting work. But if the vibroknife has many times the mechanical advantage (because it is sharper and powered) then there is no difference in cutting, just reach. Which is still a sensible reason to make fighting vibroknives sword-like. An interesting question is how much they could telescope. With nanomaterials you can likely make some very impressive fold-out devices. A fold-out classical sword would be pointless since it would lack mass, but a vibroknife uses motors to most work so it might make sense to make it telescoping. Of course, it also means more micromechanics that can go wrong when you subject it to liquified foe, diamond shrapnel and hard shocks.
Extropian
NoFace NoFace's picture
Re: Vibroblades
The 2d10 damage base is the origin of my question regarding weapon size. It is nestled between the knife, and the monosword. Plus it has a mechanical factor. It just wasn't clear to me what size weapon it was intended to be, and size is very relevant to melee weapons rules. I was originally inclined to conceptualize it as a knife sized weapon, and I still favor that interpretation. The method of operation is more a matter of curiosity. The post on the ultrasound tapering rod was pretty interesting. Practical melee weapon design always considers minimizing the number of moving parts. Joints and doodads are ripe for failure. If I was a designer, I would avoid anything involving a motorized chain if at all possible.
Bloodwork Bloodwork's picture
Re: Vibroblades
NoFace wrote:
If I was a designer, I would avoid anything involving a motorized chain if at all possible.
But they are so bad-ass!
That which doesn't kill you usually succeeds on the second attempt.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Vibroblades
Bloodwork wrote:
NoFace wrote:
If I was a designer, I would avoid anything involving a motorized chain if at all possible.
But they are so bad-ass!
And that is why Cold Steel Corporation sells the Mad Max Chainmaster telescoping butterfly knife! Only 39.99 credits and YOU can become the buzzkiller! In my game I would assume that "real" viroblades use ultrasonics. While the kind of people who want to be bad-ass use microchainsaws that fail in complex and interesting ways, but at least have that dentist drill sound (actually, it is synthesized) to really scare people. "Why do they call him teethface? Well, he tried to cut through a fullerene stanchion with his chainsword. The chains broke, the sword exploded, and he got all the diamond teeth embedded in the face. Makes shaving a bit of a challenge..."
Extropian
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Vibroblades
Arenamontanus wrote:
TBRMInsanity wrote:
No matter how sharp a knife is, it can't cut as deep as a sword and thus can't do as much damage.
Hmm, if I can easily make 10 cm deep cuts through your anatomy without being impeded much by bone then I think you are in serious trouble. Is there *any* part of your anatomy that can be hit without seriously impairing effects? (I think a hand or a foot might be best, but even there the bleeding is going to be very nasty and fast; a shoulder hit is going to sever big arteries) My impression is that swords are more damaging than knives is because that the longer blade makes it easier to hit, and then more force (from slowing the higher kinetic energy) can be brought into cutting work. But if the vibroknife has many times the mechanical advantage (because it is sharper and powered) then there is no difference in cutting, just reach. Which is still a sensible reason to make fighting vibroknives sword-like. An interesting question is how much they could telescope. With nanomaterials you can likely make some very impressive fold-out devices. A fold-out classical sword would be pointless since it would lack mass, but a vibroknife uses motors to most work so it might make sense to make it telescoping. Of course, it also means more micromechanics that can go wrong when you subject it to liquified foe, diamond shrapnel and hard shocks.
I'm not saying that a vibroknife wouldn't be lethal (especially when you hit a critical area like an artery or the jugular). I'm saying that when you drive a 10cm blade into someone's stomach vs driving a 40+ cm blade into their stomach, you tend to do more damage (hitting internal organs, multiple arteries, etc). Add in the vibro effect to continue moving the blade around inside someone's innards, and you have a very lethal effect. The 10cm blade is still lethal, just not AS lethal.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
brainycat brainycat's picture
Re: Vibroblades
I envision my character's vibroblade as 20cm plus standard human size handle - about the size of a contemporary survival knife. My GM let me have a lumbar quick release holster for it. I like to think that the blade is a nanofilaminent that rotates inside a very small channel along the edge when a switch on the handle is pressed, much like a chainsaw. This way, I have both a normal nano-edged blade OR I can flick the switch and do vibrodamage. I would think it needs recharging every 1 hour of use. The extra damage inflicted in vibro-mode is because it's easier to slice laterally - after the initial puncture, the blade effortlessly rips a gash. Just my 1/10cred...
Checkmate Checkmate's picture
Re: Vibroblades
NoFace wrote:
The 2d10 damage base is the origin of my question regarding weapon size. It is nestled between the knife, and the monosword. Plus it has a mechanical factor. It just wasn't clear to me what size weapon it was intended to be, and size is very relevant to melee weapons rules. I was originally inclined to conceptualize it as a knife sized weapon, and I still favor that interpretation.
The description shares more in common with a carving knife than a sword. You don't go around sawing things with a sword. Combined with the fact that its AP is twice as good as a knife but half as good as a monofilament sword seems to indiciate, to me at least, that it's simply a large knife. "Blade" is a word you usually use with knives more than larger weapons. If it were a sword, "vibrosword" would have been a much more apt name. And considering that the 'inferior' technology of a monofilament sword results in a weapon with stats noticeably better than a vibroblade... well, nuff said on the subject.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Vibroblades
Checkmate wrote:
NoFace wrote:
The 2d10 damage base is the origin of my question regarding weapon size. It is nestled between the knife, and the monosword. Plus it has a mechanical factor. It just wasn't clear to me what size weapon it was intended to be, and size is very relevant to melee weapons rules. I was originally inclined to conceptualize it as a knife sized weapon, and I still favor that interpretation.
The description shares more in common with a carving knife than a sword. You don't go around sawing things with a sword. Combined with the fact that its AP is twice as good as a knife but half as good as a monofilament sword seems to indiciate, to me at least, that it's simply a large knife. "Blade" is a word you usually use with knives more than larger weapons. If it were a sword, "vibrosword" would have been a much more apt name. And considering that the 'inferior' technology of a monofilament sword results in a weapon with stats noticeably better than a vibroblade... well, nuff said on the subject.
Vibroblades and monofilament swords use different mechanisms for cutting through objects, and vibroblades are most definitely [i]not[/i] just knives. Comparing them would be like comparing chainsaws to axes. Monofilament swords are essentially classic swords utilizing futuristic sharpening technologies; their edges are literally one molecule thick, and are quite possibly the sharpest possible edges you could ever possibly have on a cutting tool (unless we could make subatomic edges). A vibroblade, on the other hand, utilizes fast vibrations to essentially create super-friction, tearing through a target with a similar effect to a chainsaw. In fact, it's very likely that vibroblades, when shut off, are completely dull-edged just like a chainsaw. This is why a vibroblade continues to do massive damage if you hold it against a target rather than slicing or cutting like with a monomolecular weapon (in fact, a vibroblade does [b]more[/b] damage than a monofilament sword when sawing, 4d10 with AP -5 versus 2d10 + 2 with AP -4). Think of a logger cutting a tree down with a chainsaw... he doesn't hack at it.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Checkmate Checkmate's picture
Re: Vibroblades
I'm well aware of the differences. Your problem is that you're assuming that a vibroblade is a sword [i]and[/i] that it's a grossly inferior technology to monofilaments, with absolutely nothing to back up those assumptions. However, if you actually read the description of both, you'll see that they go out of their way to say that swords are incredibly archaic (with the associated context that they're all but unknown weapons, just like in real life today), but that a few [i]eccentrics[/i] have gone about creating [i]some[/i] with monofilament edges. If you then look at the description for a vibroblade, [i]they make no such comment[/i]. They even specifically say 'blades' instead of 'swords' a second time. The only other time they use the word 'blade' is with the Flex Cutter, which they [i]specifically[/i] mention as a machete-like weapon (an unnecessary emphasis if they were assuming 'blade' = 'sword'). And even despite that, a machete is, in fact, just a large knife. If a vibroblade is a sword, they'd have said something about it in its description. They either would have called it a 'vibrosword' or described it as a 'buzzing electronic sword.' But they never do. Not once, despite [i]your[/i] assumptions. The armor penetration stat for vibroblades is the real telling point. It's only mildly better than a knife or flex cutter, but grossly inferior (half its rating) compared to a monofilament sword. It makes up the difference with the damage it does [i]once[/i] it gets past the armor since, just like an electric knife, it cuts through flesh like butter. Especially when compared to traditional blades.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Vibroblades
Checkmate wrote:
I'm well aware of the differences. Your problem is that you're assuming that a vibroblade is a sword [i]and[/i] that it's a grossly inferior technology to monofilaments, with absolutely nothing to back up those assumptions. However, if you actually read the description of both, you'll see that they go out of their way to say that swords are incredibly archaic (with the associated context that they're all but unknown weapons, just like in real life today), but that a few [i]eccentrics[/i] have gone about creating [i]some[/i] with monofilament edges. If you then look at the description for a vibroblade, [i]they make no such comment[/i]. They even specifically say 'blades' instead of 'swords' a second time. The only other time they use the word 'blade' is with the Flex Cutter, which they [i]specifically[/i] mention as a machete-like weapon (an unnecessary emphasis if they were assuming 'blade' = 'sword'). And even despite that, a machete is, in fact, just a large knife. If a vibroblade is a sword, they'd have said something about it in its description. They either would have called it a 'vibrosword' or described it as a 'buzzing electronic sword.' But they never do. Not once, despite [i]your[/i] assumptions. The armor penetration stat for vibroblades is the real telling point. It's only mildly better than a knife or flex cutter, but grossly inferior (half its rating) compared to a monofilament sword. It makes up the difference with the damage it does [i]once[/i] it gets past the armor since, just like an electric knife, it cuts through flesh like butter. Especially when compared to traditional blades.
When did I ever say it was inferior, or a sword? It's a [i]different technology[/i], with a different purpose. A vibroblade is a futuristic chainsaw (and if you read my post, I mentioned the word "chainsaw" three or four times while talking about it), while a monofilament sword is a futuristic sword. HUGE difference, and I would recommend them in different scenarios. A monofilament sword is likely a far quieter weapon, and far better for stealth scenarios. A vibroblade is good... well... whenever you need the cutting power of a chainsaw in the form factor of a blade.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]