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Travel Time

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GregH GregH's picture
Travel Time
(Inspired by a recent RPGnet thread). Will there be a generic travel time list or formula for spacecraft (and on that note, Egocasting) for the Solar System? Don't need anything really mathamatical (besides, you want to keep spacecraft a setting at the moment and once down the path of complex spacecraft rules you go forever will it dominate your destiny!)... but a rough idea as to how long it would take to egocast to Jupiter, beat the artifact collector to Phobos, or take that salvage ship to Neptune to recover the experimental ship (you know... the one that was playing with exotic physics that they said was lost...).
Darksyde Darksyde's picture
I wana be the rescue tech. He
I wana be the rescue tech. He lived without horrible scars and life changeing emotional trama.
RobBoyle RobBoyle's picture
This was something that was

This was something that was discussed but didn't end up making it in the core book. We might put something together for the website or maybe the inner and outer system location sourcebooks.

Rob Boyle :: Posthuman Studios

GregH GregH's picture
Perhaps this could help?
Perhaps this could help? JSnead was on the RPGnet thread saying something to the effect of around 0.1G being the best you can expect for something along the line of Hard SF and referenced it to the Atomic Rocket (good ol' Atomic Rocket, how did we ever get along without yea...) site Mission table (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3o.html). Puts inner solar system travel around a month and some change (rough averages here not taking into account planet position, etc. all) and outer travel several months. Sound about what you have envisioned?
RobBoyle RobBoyle's picture
Yep, and Snead was the one

Yep, and Snead was the one who put together our spaceship stats.

Rob Boyle :: Posthuman Studios

Decivre Decivre's picture
I don't know... I've always
I don't know... I've always considered Battletech to be Hard SF, and it has ships which accelerate at 1G. 9.807 m/s^2 doesn't seem that impractical in the future.
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jackgraham jackgraham's picture
One big issue we ran into
One big issue we ran into when thinking about in-system distances was bookkeeping and GM sanity. The distances between planets change all the time (thus all the problems NASA runs into when trying to meet launch windows for probe craft). I wouldn't say we mailed it in on coming up with a travel times table. It was more a design decision that going with really rough suggestions (the times mentioned in your post are about right) and then letting GMs make a story-based decision on how long they wanted transit times to take made more sense. Otherwise, GMs would be pulling their hair out trying to figure travel times, which just isn't very much fun. If you're someone who really wants to nrrd out on that, go get an astronomy program and calculate travel times at .1 G. (And post it in the fan material section on this forum if you come up with anything good!)
J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
GregH GregH's picture
Naw, just need to eyeball via
Naw, just need to eyeball via the Atomic rocket chart. I like the direction EP goes on the subject but for those times that characters will be in space I want to get a feel of how long they may have to go from one point to another... makes the long-lost vessel that happens to show up and the ego cast capability is down a lot more spooky if you are going to have to take a few weeks/months (and consequently expect similar travel times) getting to it and back.
H3g3m0n H3g3m0n's picture
Celestia
It would be great if someone modded Celestia or made something similar to make it give distances and added Eclipse Phase habitats into it (and other systems). That way you could just enter the date and get the distance. Would also probably want to make it top down and make the planets really exaggerated size wise for navigation sake. There are a few other problems though. What happens when there is no direct line of sight? You could find yourself bouncing around a few other destinations although its probably worth while skipping over this since I guess they wouldn't add that much travel time when your going at the speed of light (unless you had to go backwards quite a distance). IRL Delay Tolerant Networking is being used for space travel. You could find yourself stuck in a cache somewhere for a few hours until a satellite is in position. You would also need to be able to add your own habitats with their own orbits. I think for sanity sake you could just arbitrarily choose distances between planets based on the max and min distance between them (would need a large table of the max/min distance between all the planets/belts) and just randomly choose a distance and use that unless a long enough period of time has passed to require a regeneration.
Slith Slith's picture
IIRC, egocasting is primarily
IIRC, egocasting is primarily done with a neutrino transmitter. Neutrinos go through matter like it doesn't even exist, so I don't think there'd be any LOS issues. [On the other hand, how do you receive a signal that so easily passes through all matter! Chalk that one up to magic, I guess.]
Eleazar Eleazar's picture
Re: Celestia
H3g3m0n wrote:
It would be great if someone modded Celestia or made something similar to make it give distances and added Eclipse Phase habitats into it (and other systems). That way you could just enter the date and get the distance. Would also probably want to make it top down and make the planets really exaggerated size wise for navigation sake.
Hi! I just started playing around with Celestia myself after discovering the game and getting immediately curious about this sort of stuff. What I did was use the blurb about how the dwarf planet Eris is 55 AU from the sun right now. Conveniently, the Wikipedia page for Eris has a chart on it right now that shows some orbital data, along with some other info. Using that I set Celestia to the year 2200 & went to Eris. After fumbling around trying to get it to give me the distance between two points, rather than my distance from Eris, I had the face-slapping moment of realization that Celestia allows you to click on any object without re-focusing on it. That is, I could stay focused on Eris and click the Sun, at which point Celestia is giving me my view distance from the Sun, while I remain tethered to Eris. Then I simply used the time acceleration tools to move the solar system around until I got to ~55 AU from the Sun. The exact time period would be 2192 for 55 AU on the dot. Now if I want to have players tour the solar system, I just set it to those approximate years & everything is nice and clean, and I don't have to fudge things or pretend Eclipse Phase's Solar System is using year 2010 type positions. I can even move forwards in real time, to get the effect of travel time's changing in due to time spent in a location. This actually inspired me to have the players required to accomplish a scenario in a certain time limit, before orbital positions would make retrieval exceedingly expensive. If they hadn't finished their mission on time, they would have been stuck for months until it was deemed cost-effective to retrieve them!
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Travel Time
Here is a bunch of approximations, which is how I think I will handle it: Distance If planet A and B orbit at radius r1 and r2 from the sun (ignoring elliptic orbits and inclinations) the average distance is approximately r1*sqrt(1+(r2/r1)^2) (the real expression is an ugly elliptic integral nobody in their right mind wants), and for even rougher rpg purposes one can say that if B orbits inside A's orbit the average distance is slightly more than r2, if both are in the same orbit the distance is 1.25*r2 and if B is much further out the distance is r2. Example: the average distance between Venus and Earth (r1=0.723 and r2=1 AU) is around 1.135 AU. The above formula gives 1.234 instead. Racer burns The fastest way of going a straight distance R is with a rocket that constantly accelerates at an acceleration A (see the table on page 347). This would take K sqrt(R/A) days, where K is 1.4285433 if we measure R in AU and A in G-s. A metallic hydrogen rocket can go 1 AU in just one and a half days! Unfortunately this is *extremely* fuel inefficient. The rocket equation, my least favourite law of nature, shows that the amount of reaction mass needed grows exponentially with the velocity (since you need to accelerate the mass too). Even with cheap energy and reaction mass this makes fast spaceflight hard since the sheer size of the ship will balloon. Slow trips The most fuel efficient way of going from point A to B in the solar system involves using the "interplanetary transport network", sending the vehicle orbiting in such a way that different gravitational effects nudge it from orbit to orbit. This is very slow; typically it takes many revolutions of the involved planets to get anywhere - going from Earth to Jupiter would take several years. If you are willing to use a bit of fuel to do two burns, then a Hohman transfer orbit is optimally cheap. The time taken is about half a period of the destination planet (e.g. going from Earth to Mars takes about half a Mars year, about 1.05 years). Unfortunately this only works at certain times when the start and destination are at the right points in their orbits. However, with a bit of extra fuel one can make another orbit that solves the Kepler problem and brings one from A to B. As a rough rule of thumb, this will also take about half an orbit for the outer planet. Middle-of-the road burns Spacecraft will normally travel somewhere between the absurdly fast constant acceleration trajectories and the efficient Kepler orbits. If you burn for time T at start and finish, you will get velocity AT for the coasting period (and assuming it is most of the journey) will arrive after time R/AT. If we measure R in AU, A in G-s and T in hours we get the travel time of around 49*R/AT days. Example: A fusion rocket burning for 4 hours at the start and destination, going from Mars to Jupiter (R is around 5.2 AU) will arrive after 26 days. Had it been a antimatter rocket it would have arrived after 6.5 days. Both burns have to long enough to bring the ship up to speeds comparable to the planets, typically some tens of km/s (Mercury 47.9 km/s, Earth at 29.8 km/s, Jupiter at 13.1 km/s to Pluto at 4.7 km/s). In reality these delta-v changing burns will depend quite a lot on where you want to go (and relative position: much of the burn is about changing the direction rather than size of your velocity). The time it takes to get to V km/s if one can thrust at A G-s is around 102*V/A seconds. Example: Getting to Jupiter from Mars may involve two burns at around 30 km/s, taking 1020 seconds if done with a metallic hydrogen rocket, 4.25 hours with an antimatter rocket and 17 hours with a fusion rocket. Comparing with the previous example, the fusion rocket needs a longer burn than four hours to match the orbital velocities, while the antimatter rocket is probably about OK with a 4 hour burn. All in all, celestial mechanics is fun, but one shouldn't overcomplicate things.
Extropian
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Travel Time
could someone build a spreadsheet for that under Excell or OpenO's Calc? I absolutely suck in equations
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mds mds's picture
Re: Travel Time
I built a very simple calculator back when this came up on RPG.net (which JSnead might remember): http://alfedenzia.com/misc/burn.php No accounting for interplanetary transport networks, Hohman transfer orbits, or even how much reaction mass the ship has to carry. The 'burn ratio' parameter in the third case is the percentage of time that the rockets are firing. While it defaults to 100%, for realistic results, it should be set lower. Much lower. (See Arenamontanus's comments on racer burns.) If you don't care too much about precision, it might be enough to get an order of magnitude for how long it takes to get from A to B.
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Travel Time
silly question, but how do you use the form? looks great, anyway! Kinda reminds me an application that a pal of mine had made for Fading Suns it was a map of the Ur gates, and the jump track needed to reach a destination
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mds mds's picture
Re: Travel Time
For travel time, you're interested in the right-hand column. The checkbox at the top determines whether you want to stop at the end of your trip, or if you're trying to ram the target at full speed. Naturally, it defaults to the unsafe option. The text box labeled Burn ratio is what percentage of the trip you want to spend accelerating or decelerating. By default, it's assuming that you're firing the rocket the whole way. The checkboxes are for the different propulsion methods, based off of the acceleration figures provided in the rulebook. Later in the RPG.net thread, JSnead provided better figures, but this doesn't use them. You now have two options, indicated by the radio buttons. The first choice will calculate travel time for five configurable distances, measured in AU. There's no significance behind the default numbers there, beyond roughly exponential. One AU is, of course, the distance from the Earth to the sun. The second choice, labeled 'A to B' lets you chose one or more sources, and one or more destinations. Clicking the 'Compute' button will take every pairing of source and destination, and calculate the travel time when the source and destination are closest and furthest apart. Now that I have Arenamontanus's equation for calculating average distance, I might add that as well. Be careful choosing lots of sources and destinations, since you'll end up with 2 * s * d columns in the resulting table, which can grow very quickly. Note that once you click the button, the page will very gleefully forget all of the values that you just entered, so if you want to make minor changes, you'll have to hit back, or enter everything in again.
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Travel Time
Wonderful! what are the two other frames for?
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mds mds's picture
Re: Travel Time
The left-most tells you, if you're accelerating at maximum speed with a given engine/propellant, how fast will you be after a given amount of time. The middle column will tell you how far you've gone in that time.
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Travel Time
Thanks! realistically, how much burn ratio is used? 100% is very unrealistic, though might be used in case of extreme emergency
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Travel Time
While HO and MH rockets are very likely incapable of racer burns, I'd imagine that the other types of propulsions systems are likely designed for that specific use... especially since they are supposedly designed for long-distance travel. Also, since they have 15 to 400+ times less acceleration than either of the former two systems, racer burns are likely necessary to actually get to your destination with any decent amount of time.
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Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Travel Time
by the way, is here a Pandora Gate on Echo IV, or only on Echo V? If so, how long does it take Gatecrashers to travel back and forth EIV and EV? I suppose they use Valkyrie-style shuttles built in-situ with industrial sized Cornucopia machines who can honnestly say they didn't picture a geeky scientist in charge with Morph designing come up with tall blue skinned, tailed morphs? the boss "and these nerves, what are they for?" scientist:"well, to connect with the Myst Trees, of course!" boss; pinching the bridge of her nose and sighing "figures."
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