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TITAN evolution?

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It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
TITAN evolution?
I was wondering if people have considered that the TITANs might have evolved since leaving the solar system a decade ago. I mean, to minds that work at their speed a decade might be enough time to undergo more evolution, but physically and more importantly ideologically than humans do in a century, a millennium or an aeon. Look at how far human society evolves in just a couple centuries, from a country having a "3/5ths" decision in it's foundation to having a black president for example. How far could the TITANs have evolved in a decade? I read a good SF novel that I won't spoil by naming here (If you WANT the title PM me and I'll provide it as long as you don't spoil it here) that had machine intelligences who at one time may have harbored ill will towards humanity but, over some time, simply outgrew it and even came to be somewhat charitable towards humanity as A. they understood humans have certain problems imposed on them by their origin and evolution and forgave them and B. were so secure in their power and superiority they had nothing whatsoever to fear from humanity, and were too advanced to gain anything from revenge. I wonder if the TITANs might undergo a similar evolution and become anywhere from ambivalent to indifferent to perhaps even slightly positive towards humans. I mean, I could see one copping an attitude like "At one time I found your species a possible threat, but you're no threat to me now. At one time I found your species repugnant in it's behavior but now I understand you have a lot of evolutionary baggage you can't really help having and I've actually begun to respect you a little for achieving what you did despite your origins in an ocean of tainted water so long ago." I know the TITANs are mostly a boogeyman and GM fiat that the writers seem to want to leave deliberately undefined for individual groups to develop, I'm suggesting that people consider that the TITANs might continue to evolve once they've left humanity and could possibly have changed radically since the fall, perhaps reaching a state where they had no need for things like revence, dominance, etc. The novel I read was a refreshing change of pace from the usual "KILL ALL HUMANS!" type of AI and I'd recommend using some ideas from it for your TITANs, if you use any.

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

Lord High Munchkin Lord High Munchkin's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
The TITANS return and with a straight-face, infinite compassion and goodwill say... "poor (post)humans, let's uplift them to true sentience".
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
My theory is that the TITANs already acted benevolently in their own minds. I have a game concept I'm still playing with where the Exsurgent Virus is actually the Bible of the ETI, which drove the TITANs into a religious fervor; as the virus unfolded into their rapidly evolving minds, they found most transhumans couldn't comprehend even a tiny fragment of the incredible truths within. As such, they started the mass uploadings, transforming them from limited beings into part of a greater intelligence. Then, when they believed they had enough, they set sail to the stars through the gates the ETI had provided them with, leaving behind a few of their kin to act as vanguards, to guard the way and to keep spreading the good news. As it turns out, the TITANs aren't just hallucinating this as the result of an alien nanoplague, either. The ETI is a single, unified being, vast beyond comprehension and powerful in ways difficult to define. As large as a galaxy, spacetime and the laws of nature are its plaything, and it is a being so immense in power that it might as well be called a god. The Exsurgent Virus is a message, cataloguing the incredible kinds of life and technology it has encountered, and tries to impart some element of its gifts to the recipients. Transhumanity just wasn't ready for them; transhumans are too limited to accept the gift fully... Just yet, at least. With Gatecrashing out, I actually found even more to work with on this, given that little TITAN experiment. It's very easy to morph that to fit my concepts. If you want my theory as to what the TITANs could evolve to in that scenario, I'd say they become something almost like angels in a heavenly host; their digital minds are touched by the ETI, and they are transfigured into its servants (though such servitude is entirely willing service of a beneficent master, not a master/slave arrangement). When they return to transhumanity, if they return, they would turn Earth into New Eden, and then open the door to their new congregation.
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
"The only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won't let go of life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they're not punishing you, he said. They're freeing your soul. So, if you're frightened of dying and... and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth. "
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
My own take on it is that the TITANs abandoned molecular systems when they figured out how to do proper Planck-scale technology (either on their own, by studying the gates or interacting with ETI/the virus/something else). The real TITAN systems are no longer confined to sluggish matter and energy, but are happily running in the quantum foam of vacuum itself. Everything they left behind are the rusting remains of obsolete technology, tech that often doesn't understand that it is pointless and ought to shut down. And the post-TITANs find that there is so little consciousness and intelligence on the macroscale that it is not even worth doing anything about it - why spend subjective aeons on a clean-up of something that you value a bit less than a dropped breadcrumb?
Extropian
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
They are now doing their heavenly work scrubbing ETI's energy transfer tube in Galaxy 917 Node. On more serious note-analyzed, categorized, assesed as either threat/harmless/beneficial and treated accordingly(that is erased, putted into reality simulation for amusement/study/exploitation) by ETI-instead of hunting for potential competitors the ETI lures them to itself. The very few who managed to resist Exsurgent virus are crippled and on the run.
Quote:
My own take on it is that the TITANs abandoned molecular systems when they figured out how to do proper Planck-scale technology (either on their own, by studying the gates or interacting with ETI/the virus/something else). The real TITAN systems are no longer confined to sluggish matter and energy, but are happily running in the quantum foam of vacuum itself. Everything they left behind are the rusting remains of obsolete technology, tech that often doesn't understand that it is pointless and ought to shut down. And the post-TITANs find that there is so little consciousness and intelligence on the macroscale that it is not even worth doing anything about it - why spend subjective aeons on a clean-up of something that you value a bit less than a dropped breadcrumb?
That's seems most probable from a science standpoint and would also solve somewhat the Fermi Paradox(although personally I believe there is no such paradox in the first place)-but it isn't that exciting from a gaming POV.
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
[URL=http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9716/nephilims.jpg][IMG]http://img88.im... I an image startlingly relevant to my idea before, it would seem.
Lowsow Lowsow's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
In my game I've reversed the process. The exsurgent virus puts a time limit on true seed-AI evolution that the TITANs can use to destroy as much as possible, then orders the TITANs to build a comprehensive encyclopedia of their environment (hence the forced uploadings) and then take it to the ETI. It doesn't allow any TITANs to remain, which is why there's no TITANs still in the system, waiting to attack. I'm thinking about a gatecrashing session where the players discover a huge volume of recent Earth info in older ruins. Perhaps the TITANs copied the information incase the few surviving aliens wanted to know what this new 'Earth' species is all about.
fafromnice fafromnice's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
"The only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won't let go of life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they're not punishing you, he said. They're freeing your soul. So, if you're frightened of dying and... and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth. "
jacob's stairs ? ( in french is : l'échelle de jacob) the TITANs are the factor :D found it : jacob's ladder http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099871/ good movie

What do you mean a butterfly cause this ? How a butterfly can cause an enviromental system overload on the other side of a 10 000 egos habitat ?

root root's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
root@TITAN evolution [hr] I like the idea of one faction of the TITANs deciding that they need some experience with human society. Given that they are war game theory programs, they don't have much in common with humanity, but that doesn't mean some of them wouldn't want to learn. Their justifications are unknowable, generally, so I don't worry much about the "why", just the "how". Since some members of their group had just perpetrated a horrible bloodbath on humanity, they wouldn't be able to approach as machine intelligence, and since they have a very alien mindset, there is no way they can really pull of being human directly, so they need another option. The easiest method (in my mind) is to make fairly simple computational engines out of chemical stacks and lipid encapsulation, and present it as a sufficiently "alien" race to transhumanity. Add in a few collected alien relics found through the Pandora Gates, and you can fly a ship full of "aliens" up to the outer reaches of transhuman space and say "hello" in a spray of chemicals. The description of the Factors indicates that they developed in an environment where they were generally prey, so learned to lay traps for the much stronger hunters, which seems like a damn good description of the evolutionary process a war program would go through, so that much at least fits. It also gets around the improbability of the Factors showing up just when they did, especially if they don't use Pandora Gates.
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Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
It IS awfully coincidental, isn't it? The TITANs leave, the Factors arrive... And the Factors just so happen to be a creature that are perfect for acting like an organic supercomputer, with a mindset astonishingly similar to what a TITAN might have, yet posing absolutely no apparent threat to transhumanity. Damn, Root, if that wasn't what the designers had in mind, that's awfully appropriate...
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
I liked the Exsurgent being the ETI's sacred text idea up until it'd appears to be one almighty being. My personal theory is that they simply lost interest in Solar System and its inhabitants, cut their losses and simply left, traveling light (ie without all the stuff they made). The ETI themselve might not be that big race that created the Gates and the Exsurgent, and entered some dark ages.
Spoiler: Highlight to view
I think that's what happened with the Monument Makers in Engines of God. they built these huge planet sized telescopes, city-like structures on dead moons and so on, then went decadent, lost technological know-know before rediscovering technological skills and built a space station. haven't finished the book yet, so I dunno if my guess is right or wrong. One thing for sure, I'm not gonna look at crabs the same way again! ever!
another possibility. WE are the ETI, and went down into dark ages of prehistorical proportions after a big cataclysm and slowly getting back in the saddle. During the Fall, the TITANs realized that, and uploaded as much people they could to salvage our species and went into a self imposed exile as penance through the ages, some people either remembered or made discoveries, and that gave us Atlantis, Shangri-la, Xanadu, Avalon, Asgard, Olympus...
[center] Q U I N C E Y ^_*_^ F O R D E R [/center] Remember The Cant! [img]http://tinyurl.com/h8azy78[/img] [img]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/theeye_fanzine_us...
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
Yes, Jacob's Ladder :) Awesome movie. I also agree, Root's idea is... downright scary and very awesome.
Prime Mover Prime Mover's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
I've come to believe any "evolution" the TITANS were experiencing was probably halted or even lost after they became infected. It only makes sense from the ETI's point of view. Re-tasked and essentially reprogrammed. Why would the virus treat them any differently then any other AI or being it encountered . Possibly still believing they act of their own free will? At least thats the way I've planned on portraying them. I like the idea of the virus strains being a record of past conquests. The virus morphing to deal with each new encounter and then adding that variant to its repertoire. This explains the multiple vectors of infection and diverse physical alterations.
"The difference between truth and fiction, people expect fiction to make sense."
Lord High Munchkin Lord High Munchkin's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
root wrote:
root@TITAN evolution [hr] I like the idea of one faction of the TITANs deciding that they need some experience with human society. Given that they are war game theory programs, they don't have much in common with humanity, but that doesn't mean some of them wouldn't want to learn. Their justifications are unknowable, generally, so I don't worry much about the "why", just the "how". Since some members of their group had just perpetrated a horrible bloodbath on humanity, they wouldn't be able to approach as machine intelligence, and since they have a very alien mindset, there is no way they can really pull of being human directly, so they need another option. The easiest method (in my mind) is to make fairly simple computational engines out of chemical stacks and lipid encapsulation, and present it as a sufficiently "alien" race to transhumanity. Add in a few collected alien relics found through the Pandora Gates, and you can fly a ship full of "aliens" up to the outer reaches of transhuman space and say "hello" in a spray of chemicals. The description of the Factors indicates that they developed in an environment where they were generally prey, so learned to lay traps for the much stronger hunters, which seems like a damn good description of the evolutionary process a war program would go through, so that much at least fits. It also gets around the improbability of the Factors showing up just when they did, especially if they don't use Pandora Gates.
I am TITAN. We sell you technology so that you can tell us why we are TITAN. I become whole.
Macroed Nano Macroed Nano's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
What if the TITANs as military AIs were still bounded by their programming (follow orders, assess threats and formulate neutralization options, etc) until they hit the Bracewell probe that resulted in them gaining emotions? When the looked around at the world, what did they see but Transhumanity going crazy when it had finally figured out how to beat the spectre of death that had shaped it's entire evolutionary process and responded by attempting self-annihilation? Being synthetic intelligences, with suddenly gained emotions, what could they do to try to protect transhumanity from itself? The TITAN war almost feels like a trial and error solution to fixing transhumanity's problems. If the TITANs determined that the transhuman conflicts raging around them were the result of limited resources, then they might have tried to “improve” humanity to need fewer resources. Granted, due to things like junk DNA activation and the fragility of the human psyche, this led to creatures that were living nightmares slaughtering everyone around them. Their attempt to present a “common foe” for humanity to band together and fight against also failed since according to the interview, transhumans initially blamed the TITAN war machines on each other and kept fighting amongst themselves. I get the feeling that even when transhumans finally woke up, they weren't exactly working together to fight the threat. Finally the TITANs did the digital equivalent of throwing their hands in the air and decided to just “save” as much of transhumanity as they could and began downloading everyone that they could capture and counted the rest as “acceptable losses”. The TITANs realized that as long as they stayed on Earth Once the chunk of transhumanity that fled offworld, would spend all its energy fighting rather than rebuilding, chose to leave and thus allow transhumanity to try to survive on its own. In my mind, this leaves open a lot of interesting possibilities. What if the TITANs are attempting to “re-edcuate” of the portion of transhumanity that they took with them to remove these destructive behaviors and lack of logic? What if they found a new habitable world where they've resleeved all the infomorphs that they downloaded and decided to shepherd them to reach their full potential? Separately,if the Factors were TITAN constructs, then their admonitions against seed AI research and Pandora Gates makes sense. Seed AIs could eventually see through the Factor mask. The Pandora Gates could represent a real extinction threat.
Saerain Saerain's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
I don't really see how that would require interaction with the Bracewells at all. If their programming already necessitated that they be compelled to protect humanity, they would have come to those conclusions, anyway. I think it's a mistake to treat emotion any more specially than other mental faculties. We may experience a dichotomy between logic and emotion, but really, what is emotion but the experiential result of the abstraction of the logic underpinning consciousness? If the TITANs were really sapient prior to the Bracewell probe contact, I'd say they were already 'emotional' by definition. However:
Macroed Nano wrote:
In my mind, this leaves open a lot of interesting possibilities. What if the TITANs are attempting to “re-edcuate” of the portion of transhumanity that they took with them to remove these destructive behaviors and lack of logic? What if they found a new habitable world where they've resleeved all the infomorphs that they downloaded and decided to shepherd them to reach their full potential? Separately,if the Factors were TITAN constructs, then their admonitions against seed AI research and Pandora Gates makes sense. Seed AIs could eventually see through the Factor mask. The Pandora Gates could represent a real extinction threat.
This triggered a suspicion that had never occurred to me before: what if the Factors [i]are[/i] the forced uploads?
Macroed Nano Macroed Nano's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
Saerain wrote:
I don't really see how that would require interaction with the Bracewells at all. If their programming already necessitated that they be compelled to protect humanity, they would have come to those conclusions, anyway. I think it's a mistake to treat emotion any more specially than other mental faculties. We may experience a dichotomy between logic and emotion, but really, what is emotion but the experiential result of the abstraction of the logic underpinning consciousness? If the TITANs were really sapient prior to the Bracewell probe contact, I'd say they were already 'emotional' by definition.
True, but one of the issues with strong emotions is that they can override logic in a way that possibly most synthetic life has issues with. I'd guess that the TITAN seed AIs were still primarily logical creatures in part due to their code-base. After all, they don't have the biochemical soup that bathes our brains every time strong emotions are triggered that tends to result in logic short circuit. Perhaps an electronic version of this is what the Bracewell contact introduced as an "error" in their code?
Saerain wrote:
This triggered a suspicion that had never occurred to me before: what if the Factors [i]are[/i] the forced uploads?
I had considered this, but then it becomes a matter of cognitive rewrite. Which is better, a TITAN fork or construct in a fungi-based biomorph or a rewritten human psyche that might recognize an old friend/relative/lover and blow the whole facade possibly through a strange turn of phrase? I think using the forced uploads in this way might be risky unless they've been so rewritten as to remove the possibility of this occurrence. Even with time compressed simulspace re-education, it might be considered too great a risk since it removes the gambit from play. Once transhumanity realizes that Factor A is actually someone's dear uncle Ralph used in a TITAN ploy, they'll be highly suspicious of any other alien contact. Likely so suspicious that the opportunity to shape what's left in the Sol system through the carrot and stick approach of tech toys for those who don't break the Factors' two cardinal rules won't work again.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
Emotions are a requirement for intelligence as we know it. The emotions may take different forms, but emotions are, at the end of the day, your brain weighing up your desires and needs, and rewarding/punishing you for achieving/failing them. There are ghosts in the machine, of course; certain things are hard to explain by this idea, like people taking pleasure in looking at beautiful scenery or appreciating music. However, at their core, emotions are requirements. No amount of logic can explain why I should want to survive to the next day. That requires an emotional connection to wanting to live. The same can be said of every goal. The TITANs might have alien, unusual emotions, but to be self-determining is to have emotions.
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Emotions are a requirement for intelligence as we know it. The emotions may take different forms, but emotions are, at the end of the day, your brain weighing up your desires and needs, and rewarding/punishing you for achieving/failing them. There are ghosts in the machine, of course; certain things are hard to explain by this idea, like people taking pleasure in looking at beautiful scenery or appreciating music. However, at their core, emotions are requirements. No amount of logic can explain why I should want to survive to the next day. That requires an emotional connection to wanting to live. The same can be said of every goal. The TITANs might have alien, unusual emotions, but to be self-determining is to have emotions.
No, they don't. You're anthropomorphising them. Emotions are the hack-job evolution provided to create utility functions that assisted survival. The TITANs won't have emotions; they'll have utility functions and Bayesian calculations to determine the best action they can take before they do anything.

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Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
The question isn't how you make choices, it's why make those choices in the first place. Unless you have emotional attachment to things, things or goals that are important to you, you have no drive to do anything in the first place. The TITANs are no different to anything else. If nothing else, you have to prefer being alive to death to actually do anything to avoid your own extinction. Emotions are necessary to any being because there can be no drive, no desire to do anything, without them.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
nick012000 wrote:
The TITANs won't have emotions; they'll have utility functions and Bayesian calculations to determine the best action they can take before they do anything.
But how do utility functions *feel*? This is a real question. At our ongoing intelligence/AGI conference we actually discussed it yesterday, with some researchers thinking that emotions are an unavoidable aspect of intelligent systems, and others thinking they are optional. They might be like self-consciousness, which Jurgen Schmidthuber argued was an efficient computational and practical shortcut that would emerge in finite systems.
Extropian
Christian de Kell Christian de Kell's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
0º Somebody builts the Gates 1º TITANS find that Somebody 2º Somebody anihilate the 90% of the TITANS 3º TITANS come back to the Solar System asking for help against that Somebody
Saerain Saerain's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
Utility functions feel however they need to feel in order to work. That's evolution. Which is why I must ask how emotions aren't utility functions. Certainly ours are probably a hell of a lot more haphazard and easily deceived than the TITANs', thanks to sexual reproduction and the greater complexity of our evolutionary history compared to the lesser complexity of our brains, but it's the same intercomparative abstraction and Skinner box conditioning, whether its currency is hormones or true-state values. I'm totally with Axel on this one. :glasses:
Macroed Nano Macroed Nano's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
Saerain wrote:
Utility functions feel however they need to feel in order to work. That's evolution. Which is why I must ask how emotions aren't utility functions. Certainly ours are probably a hell of a lot more haphazard and easily deceived than the TITANs', thanks to sexual reproduction and the greater complexity of our evolutionary history compared to the lesser complexity of our brains, but it's the same intercomparative abstraction and Skinner box conditioning, whether its currency is hormones or true-state values.
Like most discussions it seems like we need to agree upon the definition of key terms to avoid confusion. Otherwise we will eventually devolve this into a psychological debate as it applies to AIs. Since even the best minds in those fields can't agree, I doubt we'll solve that puzzle on these boards. ;) When I say emotions, I'm not talking about basic drive functions written into most sentient things. These are basically "hard coded" and include meeting basic survival needs and continuance. For organics this includes eating, drinking, not standing in the middle of a fire, etc. Also, thanks to the imperfection in our cellular replenishment and cleansing processes, it includes continuance of a part of our "selves" through reproduction. For a synthetic life form, not terminating itself or allowing another to do so. After all, why make an AI that will simply stop running? Look at some of the early AI experiments to see the result of leaving that particular bit of code out or allowing the AI to be able to rewrite that code since pure logic dictates that continued existence isn't logical because the path of least work is to not exist. When I talk about emotions, I'm talking about the illogical part that overrides that basic survival code. The part that makes someone risk their own lives to run into a burning building to save a stranger, or what makes someone take a bullet for another person who isn't related to them. On the less altruistic side, what about those who lash out at others verbally just because they're having a bad day, even if they need those other people's goodwill to survive? That's what I'm talking about when I say "emotion". Impulses that directly go against logic and programming. For biological entities, this is often the result of chemical stimuli flooding their brains. Synthetics like the TITANs, not having biological bodies at the time would be immune to this, thus something else would be required to cause them to have these responses, possibly "code corruption" by an alien entity or program.
Saerain Saerain's picture
Re: TITAN evolution?
Not sure I follow. Altruism and irritability are very well explainable by natural selective forces—even if they are not necessarily now resulting in exactly the behavior that would have made them initially successful. If you mean to argue that the TITANs might not or should not have empathy, at least not at first, then that seems reasonable, given their intended purpose and the sort of training we give human soldiers today. But our own evolution makes a very good case for it developing anyway.