Hey, I have some problems with the SOM stat that have been bugging me for a while.
1. Flexbots. The default flexbot modules are small synthmorphs so they have SOM cap of 25. However, when they combine, they can form larger synthmorphs. Larger morphs don't have this mandatory cap. However, because flexbots have the best aptitude caps and best aptitudes bonuses of their modules, they continue to have a cap of 25 (sometimes 35 due to traits). It doesn't matter if they are the size of a bus or small building, they will continue to feel this limit.
2. Shell Jamming. In transhuman, the updated rules for jamming allows for aptitude scores to be used in full. Before that, the aptitude was capped by aptitude caps of the morph or bot. This means that someone with an aptitude in SOM at something like 30 or 40 will be able to use that aptitude for small bots and morphs.
3. Eidolons. Some eidolons have bonuses for aptitudes that should have no value to digital lifeforms... unless they jam morphs and bots. The hotshot or wirehead are examples of eidolons that is made to do jamming stuff. Nothing prevents an eidolon from having aptitude bonuses in SOM despite having no physical body.
As a solution, I propose that instead of a cap of 25 to SOM aptitudes because of small size, small size instead imposes a -10 penalty to SOM tests. I feel that this would better represent SOM being an ego quality. I feel it doesn't make sense that small size should restrict SOM the way it does now.
If anyone else has anything to say about this, I would like to hear it.
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SOM Paradox
Sat, 2016-07-16 23:36
#1
SOM Paradox
Sun, 2016-07-17 03:24
#2
There's other rules that
There's other rules that govern these cases though:
In flexbots, each module may contain a separate ego, and the SOM cap represents the strength of THAT specific module. Basically, the SOM cap is quickly circumvented when you start applying teamwork bonuses to the shell.
Pretty sure Jamming still hard-caps at 20 apt max for most bots, even after transhuman's write-up.
Eidolons are still capped by the above Jamming rules.
As for your solution: I'm torn. On one hand, I tend to play gnome/halfling martial characters in D&D and am biased towards anything that makes small sized characters more powerful, on the other hand, it sort of makes sense to balance it from a hard mechanics perspective as small size comes with other benefits (e.g. being harder to hit).
As for SOM being an ego quality, I feel you're kind of missing the point. Remember that the whole point of aptitude maximum is that the body is limited - no matter how powerful the ego is, it can only coordinate the morph as well as the morph's 'hardware' can cope.
—
[url=http://eclipsephase.com/homebrew-exhuman-clade]Homebrew Exhuman Clade - The Stewards[/url]
[url=http://eclipsephase.com/homebrew-titan-traps]Homebrew TITAN Traps[/url]
Sun, 2016-07-17 04:01
#3
I always thought the low SOM
I always thought the low SOM bonus for Flexbots was reflective of their fundamental fragility as essentially really complex legos.
The new rules aren't overwriting the ones in the core rules, they're expanding, and when they disagree, Transhuman supercedes. The rule limiting shell aptitudes in still present from the core book.
I don't see any problem with your 3rd point.
I don't think this argument makes much sense, except as an argument against all aptitude caps.
Sun, 2016-07-17 13:04
#4
I feel that aptitudes are raw
I feel that aptitudes are raw cognitive abilities. To have a cap for one aptitude to be less than other aptitudes seems to imply that there is problem with the brain or CPU of the morph. SOM is not raw physical strength but rather the ability to use the strength you've got. For it to be a mix of physical and mental qualities, I would expect that larger morphs to suffer impairments to COO and REF traits to reflect that bigger morphs are not so dexterous as smaller morphs. Try getting a large morph to pick up a coin or something. I think it would feel more coherent if COO and REF got impaired by size as well. It feels like that SOM is the only stat to be so unlucky. Or it might be that I'm applying DnD sensibilities.
I was under the impression that the jamming rules in transhuman was a total rewrite. If aptitude caps continued to apply, it should have been mentioned. It is not doing the best job at clarification if it missing some rules. In fact, it does mention aptitude caps for direct remote control, but not for jamming, so I don't think this was some oversight.
I brought up infomorphs because they easily show the full aptitudes of the ego. Using the rules from transhuman, an infomorph can have their aptitudes impaired by the device their running on. 20 for personal computers, 30 for servers, 35 or 40 for high end servers. SOM is never singled out as the impaired stat.
Further more, eidolons like the hot shot or wirehead are purpose built for remote control and jamming. I would question why bothering to give them bonuses to REF if they could not use it to improve how well they can control other bots. You could make the case that REF boosts INIT, but so does INT. And if INIT boost was your goal, you would be better off getting the mental speed augment first (its cheaper and gives a nice +3 bonus).
Sun, 2016-07-17 16:01
#5
Larger morphs get higher SOM
Larger morphs get higher SOM maxes than smaller morphs, as an example, the Daitya has caps of 30 (40 SOM). Large morphs do have limits on how they can interact with small things, from the penalties given by the trait. I suspect that the SOM cap exists thanks to the several raw toughness checks represented by SOM, which don't really have dextrous equivalents.
The Transhuman rules change DRC aptitudes from from being limited to the caps, to not being able to claim any bonuses, even from your own morph, that's why there's a change in Transhuman. There's no mention of aptitude caps for jamming in Transhuman, so that rule wasn't changed. (The core rules limit jamming to the caps).
I still don't see the importance of the infomorph example, as infomorphs aren't getting lowered caps because they're small.
You can claim your own morphs aptitude bonuses when jamming bots. This isn't super useful for jamming low-end stuff with caps of 20, but becomes a lot more useful with a higher end morph. The bonuses are not useful for DRC.
Sun, 2016-07-17 23:42
#6
DivineWrath wrote:I feel that
Aptitudes are raw cognitive abilities, you're right, but they don't exist in a void.
As for how you're weighing aptitudes, I think it's worth thinking of what each x3 check constitutes as well:
COG x3 is used for memory recall as well as general non-specific knowledge
INT x3 is basically a common sense check/gut instinct check
SAV x3 is kind of a raw charisma check, think the kinds of rolls that'd use 'presence' in World of Darkness
WIL x3 checks are the reason you grab the stat
REF x3 is used for stuff like: catching the grenade out of the air to throw it back.
COO x3 would come into play for things like trying to cross a chasm by walking over a beam thinner than your own foot.
SOM x3 is most commonly used in stun/knockdown checks, rolling for unconsciousness, etc. It's also used in determining carry weights and strain when moving massive loads.
While this seems to overlap with DUR x2 checks, DUR x2 comes into play when sheer force of will [i]cannot[/i] influence the outcome, such as when determining if something's amputated or how badly you got Tased.
SOM is the only one that cares about how hardy the shell is. You do have a point about some of the larger shells and manual dexterity, but when COO and REF x3 checks come into play, it's generally more binary - Either its possible for you to succeed, or its not. You can't catch that knife thrown at your face if you don't have fingers to grasp with, a lot of larger shells lack fine manipulators.
Nah, it was an easy to miss section in the Transhuman book that spelt out that nothing was a complete rewrite, but it did assume errata rules and changes. Anything in Transhuman that relied upon them superseded what was in the core book.
Because unless they're jamming SOM is fundamentally useless to an infomorph? The kinds of checks SOM would cover for a shell, an infomorph would rely on WIL as they're fundamentally different processes when you think about the contexts.
The REF boost allows characters with low REF scores to actually jam effectively. Also: high end shells that would call for those eidolons to be used would probably be morph grade apt max - the book does explicitly mention that in many habs, Reapers, Rovers, Kites, Nautiluses and the like are often teleoperated rather than sleeved into.
Also, maybe I've got the wrong augment in mind, but I thought the increased speed implant didn't effect INIT? SPD and INIT are completely different things...
—
[url=http://eclipsephase.com/homebrew-exhuman-clade]Homebrew Exhuman Clade - The Stewards[/url]
[url=http://eclipsephase.com/homebrew-titan-traps]Homebrew TITAN Traps[/url]
Mon, 2016-07-18 01:26
#7
Increased speed and mental
Increased speed and mental speed are 2 different augments. Mental speed is nanoware (core rulebook p. 308) that gives +3 INIT and 2 additional mental actions per action phase. Transhuman says that infomorphs can get a digital equivalent. Increased speed is a new augment for infomorphs that gives a +1 increase to speed.
Mon, 2016-07-18 01:38
#8
Ah, forgot that mental speed
Ah, forgot that mental speed did the +3 INIT, probably because the extra mental actions on their own are powerful enough to justify the implant.
—
[url=http://eclipsephase.com/homebrew-exhuman-clade]Homebrew Exhuman Clade - The Stewards[/url]
[url=http://eclipsephase.com/homebrew-titan-traps]Homebrew TITAN Traps[/url]
Tue, 2016-07-19 09:16
#9
New X-Threat: Little Old Man with Broom.
I'm completely fine with a SOM (or any attribute) cap, because it's "sort of" realistic - once you get to a certain point, being stronger doesn't actually give you any benefit because you're restricted by your leverage and anchor points, as well as the durability of the morph itself.
A small morph may be "strong" enough to lift a 100 Tonne shipping crate, but all it'll do is drive it's feet into the floor.
—
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Tue, 2016-07-19 10:39
#10
That's a really concise way
That's a really concise way of putting it.
Also, love the subject line
—
[url=http://eclipsephase.com/homebrew-exhuman-clade]Homebrew Exhuman Clade - The Stewards[/url]
[url=http://eclipsephase.com/homebrew-titan-traps]Homebrew TITAN Traps[/url]
Tue, 2016-07-19 11:21
#11
Power vs Technique
I think what really makes it fuzzy is how you have SOM as an infomorph, and how your SOM carries over with you from morph to morph, subject only to the morph's caps.
This seems to suggest that SOM, your raw SOM stat at least, isn't *really* strength, it's the ability to make effective use of the strength you have. It's things like knowing to lift with your legs and not your back. The morph's inherent strength is reflected in its cap and bonus, if any. Your effective SOM (ie what you get after applying caps and mods) then is a blend of both your strength *and* your competence in applying it.
This would imply that technically every morph is as strong as its SOM cap and most people just don't know how to push it to the limit. Technically the relationship between SOM and morph strength should be a little more complex (ie there's a difference in what would be difficult for a strong character in a weak morph, or a weak character in a strong morph), but it's easy to see how those details would need to be handwaved for the sake of simplicity. Morph and mod bonuses to SOM of course represent the fact that being physically strong has its benefits even if you don't know how to use it.
The GM can color it up and highlight that mental-physical duality that SOM has if they like though, by adjusting descriptions and difficulty levels based on where the character gets their SOM from.
A strong character capped by a weak morph would still be highly competent, and you could give them a bonus to tasks that are more about correct application of strength rather than raw strength itself (for example, many grapples in martial arts are more about technique than power). But for a raw feat of strength such as a dead lift, technique will only allow the competent character to push his morph to its physical limit, not beyond.
A weak character in a strong morph on the other hand would still be sitting on a mountain of raw power, but they would not be able to handle it competently. They'd be a klutz. You could probably give them a bonus to simple tasks like smashing and crushing things, because they can just brute-force it. But in applications where technique is important, they may find the morph's strength doesn't do any good when they don't know how to use it right.
Those are entirely judgement calls of course, and a GM could just as easily say "let's just stick to the rules as written and try not to think about it too much."
—
End of line.
Tue, 2016-07-19 15:05
#12
SOM is used to figure out how
SOM is used to figure out how well a morph fits on you, how you integrate into it. It is an ego stat and they explicitly say that it isn't raw strength but a measure of your ability to leverage the morph's strength and limbs. Infomorphs, being nominally morphless, have no use for physical strength so their SOM stat is less useful, an info-lifestyle person has little need for SOM, just like an isolated brinker who never wants to talk to people has little need for SAV but they still have the ability to do so.
—
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Sat, 2016-07-30 09:45
#13
Laskeutua wrote:In flexbots,
Ok, explain this to me. I might have missed something. I get that you can have multiple egos in a flexbot, but how does the teamwork bonuses factor in? Only one ego pilots the machine at a time, so all the other egos have to do mental only actions, or control articulated weapon and gear mounts.
Sat, 2016-07-30 10:31
#14
Let me try this argument
Let me try this argument again.
First I tried including Eidolons in this conversation, not because I thought they were small morphs, but because they lack a body altogether. No size at all. Instead of having a SOM score, one could argue that they shouldn't have a SOM score at all. On the grounds that small morphs have a SOM cap of 25 for being small and puny, digital morphs lacking a body completely therefore wouldn't have any kind of SOM value. I found that kind of thinking doesn't work well, so I was suggesting different kinds of perks/penalties for different kinds of sizes or lack of physical body altogether.
While some morphs like the Daitya might seem like a good example of a larger morph being stronger, I can see flaws in it. Many smaller morphs have aptitude caps of 40 for SOM, such as the Remade or Reaper. The Daitya may have a +15 bonus to SOM, but that is because of a Hardened Skeleton augment. Without it, it would be +10, just like the Remade and Reaper. On top of that, some flexbots have the trait Exceptional Aptitude (SOM), which pushes the limit from 25 to 35 (just 5 points shy of 40). If you throw in some augments, you can easily push the bonus to SOM aptitude to +15 or more.
I suppose the more I think about it, more the current system seems to break for me.
I'm still trying to re-evaluate jamming and aptitude caps.
I did find something I remember seeing at one point. See Transhuman, p. 96 (Its not well bookmarked or indexed). It seems to be alternative rules for durability, size, and strength. In these alternative rules, durability plays a more pivot-able role in many strength demanding situations. Unfortunately it does not offer a suggestion of what to do about aptitude caps for small morphs.
Sat, 2016-07-30 14:56
#15
DivineWrath wrote:Laskeutua
Well there's the +10 to appropriate tests when teamwork bonus is factored in and that's before you start to get creative. Considering that you're linked together on what is essentially a hard-linked tacnet, mental actions start to benefit from those same teamwork bonuses.
Frankly, flexbots are a munchkin's wet dream if they can spend enough time sussing out sufficient bullshittery, the SOM loss is a very small price to pay.
The SOM debate on infomorphs is moot regardless as it rarely comes up. It does however come up when the Eidolon is in a vehicle of some kind (like what the hotshot/wirehead's for with fighters), or the Eidolon is in charge of a whole hab - neither are traditional sleeves and neither function like one and are quite divorced from the rules that govern traditional morphs.
How are any of these flaws? You give the examples as if they're self evident and yet I fail to see the point you're making.
The Remade is a special case, the fluff really strongly emphasises that notion. The whole point of it is, this is human 2.0, this is better than human in every conceivable way. It was designed to test, and break, the limits of what morph design can be.
The Reaper is a highly optimised combat morph and the reaper isn't a 'smaller' morph - a standard Reaper is bigger than a transhuman.
So in saying, I'm going to just change tack:
Taking only human sized, non uplift morphs into account, here's a list of the ones that deviate from a standard global 30 apt max (excluding Remade because I already made that point this post):
Dvergr which have a global apt max of 35 and a SOM max of 40.
Freeman, Hibernoid, Ruster, Splicer, Jenkin, Basic Pod, Case, Martian Alpiner and Flats are all less than 30.
Grey, SOM max 20.
Hyperbright and Savant, INT and COG max 40
Interesting Note: Kites are small sized but are not further penalised on SOM for it, their global apt max is just 25.
What this tells me is that while Size certainly is a factor in determining SOM apt max, it's not the only one. The Morph's design and purpose matters just as much.
But what else could be changed with just a change in size and scale? COO doesn't make sense when you really sit down and think about it: traits like 'No Manipulators' comes in to fill that void really if the morph lacks the capacity for fine dexterity - Like I've said before, many COO actions are very binary in that 'either you're capable of doing it in your morph, or you're not'. None of the mental skills make sense if we're just talking about physical space, which leaves REF, and I don't see how REF could be affected by size itself because that's handled as a modifier to the opponent's ability to hit you.
SOM's the only one that makes sense, because it represents your ability to make the most of any given body: some aren't as well optimised as others. SOM effects push/pull/carry weights, damage from melee weaponry and skills that require strength and speed, all things where your physical size can play a role in determining the outcome.
—
[url=http://eclipsephase.com/homebrew-exhuman-clade]Homebrew Exhuman Clade - The Stewards[/url]
[url=http://eclipsephase.com/homebrew-titan-traps]Homebrew TITAN Traps[/url]
Sat, 2016-07-30 17:09
#16
DivineWrath wrote:First I
Infomorphs and Eidolons essentially never make SOM checks, as they don't get wounded the same way. They also have trouble using SOM derived skills without jamming or DRC. Infomorphs have a body, its just virtualized in code. IIRC they're full-body simulations, so SOM could be connected to the code-body, even if infomorphs don't typically need to use their virtual muscles.
I don't really see the problem with a Daitya missing its heavy hydraulics not having a higher SOM cap than ultra-high end human bodies or smart matter attack helicopters. Its not like a Reaper is a small morph. Remades are also a decent amount larger than a normal human.
Most importantly, SOM isn't a direct measure of strength (SOM bonuses probably are though), as SOM is basically a mixture of technique and neural-recruitment. Sort of a basic measure of how well an ego knows how to use a body; like putting your weight behind a blow properly, or having the grit to make it through a few GSWs. Awkwardly, there isn't a brute strength stat for morphs, so it isn't always clear what's exceptionally strong.
However, there's only so much weight and leverage an ego can throw around in a smaller morph, which I think is the logic behind reduced caps for solid morphs (The Swarmanoid effectively has huge SOM penalties, but that's reflected in the rules differently).
I personally use (SOM+DUR)/10 for determining melee weapon damage. I don't find the extra damage to be a problem.
Fri, 2016-08-12 00:29
#17
Laskeutua wrote:DivineWrath
Explain this more. I still don't follow. I don't recall that you can get teamwork bonuses through a tacnet. Tacnets seemed to be useful for managing lots of data, not teamwork bonuses. Also, what kind of skills are you teamworking. I don't think it would help skills like freerunning. Only one person is controlling a flexbot at a time.
Also this seems like the sort of bullshit you can pull off with a few ghost rider modules and ectos. Ghost rider modules ectos are far cheaper than adding anther flexbot to the mix.
Fri, 2016-08-12 10:32
#18
Being an infomorph doesn't mean physical incompetency.
The places where Infomorphs would use SOM is when they're interacting with hardware – if an infomorph wanted to get a hydraulic door to crush someone, then they'd roll SOM or a SOM based skill.
Trying to interact with hardware in ways that aren't pre-programmed would also apply – manipulating which processor cores/physical memory handles your runtime would be SOM imo.
Any penalties or bonuses to a specific SOM-Task are dependent on whether the specific device employed is designed for that function. The fact that the operator is an Infomorph shouldn't have an implicit effect on rolls made.
—
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?