Alice is a very talented (COG 25) student of Jovian Politics (she has 35 CP in it, for a final score of 60) at TAU. She egocasts to Jupiter to complete her PhD thesis with some hands-on-experience, spending four months sleeved in a local flat. During this period she spends 4 Rez points in Jovian Politics, before egocasting back into her sylph morph at TAU. What's her Jovian Politics score now?
By a strict reading of the rules, while sleeved in the flat, her COG suffered a -5 penalty, bringing it down to 20 - thus her initial skill score was 55 (i.e. 20+35) and 4 Rez points netted her a 4 point increase to 59. Removing the COG penalty brings the score up to 64.
Now, some people might object that this is "cheating". Had Alice spent the same effort while sleeved in a splicer, she would have raised her score by only 2 points from 60 to 62, and her score back in the Sylph morph would still be a 62.
A quick and natural fix is to say that, in order to calculate one's skill advancement as a function of Rez points invested, one should look at the "naked infomoprh" without bonuses or limitations. In this case, the infomorph initially had a skill score of 60, and 4 Rez points bring the skill to 62. However, this fix creates its own inconsistencies.
Suppose Alice traveled to Jupiter with Bob, another student having spent exactly the same amount of effort on Jovian politics (35 CP before the trip, 4 Rez points during the trip). However, Bob is slightly less talented than Alice - his COG is "only" a 20. His final score in Jovian politics is then a 59. Alice and Bob both get faculty positions at TAU, and swap their morphs for Mentons. Bob's COG is boosted to 30 by the morph - boosting his effective Jovian politics score to 69. Alice also gets get COG boosted to 30 (25+10=35, but Mentons have an aptitude cap of 30); however, this is only a +5 bonus for her, so her Jovian politics score is only a 67 (i.e. 62+5). This means that Alice, despite being brighter than Bob and having spent the same effort in Jovian politics, now has a lower score!
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Skill advancement inconsistency
Mon, 2010-10-11 06:13
#1
babayaga
Skill advancement inconsistency
Mon, 2010-10-11 16:45
#2
Eos
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
I would rule that it would be your ego's aptitude plus skill not counting any morph restrictions or bonuses.
(Note: Ego traits such as hyper linguist and fast learner would always apply.)
Edit: It also follows character creation, you buy your skills and aptitudes first, then your morph.
Mon, 2010-10-11 18:03
#3
babayaga
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
If you mean that advancing your skill costs 1 RP if (ego aptitude + skill)<60 and 2 RP otherwise, you incur in the second problem I outlined, namely:
there are some circumstances when A ends up having a strictly lower skill score than B, even if A has a higher aptitude than B, has the same morph, and has spent the same number of RP/CP on that skill.
I think this is an inconsistency in the mechanics.
Tue, 2010-10-12 03:27
#4
Andinel
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
You raise skills as if you weren't sleeved in anything. Morph limits for aptitudes or bonuses don't affect the Rez cost, just the final target number.
Since your skill is 60, it would cost 4 RP, and your skill would be raised to 62. While you were in the flat, your skill would have been 60, with a -5 modifier because of the morph's aptitude max.
And in your example, Bob is somewhat more trained in the skill than Alice. Alice's skill comes from natural aptitude and intelligence. Therefore, it makes sense that Bob has a higher skill while in the Menton morph.
Tue, 2010-10-12 05:37
#5
babayaga
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
No, he is not. In the example both have invested exactly the same amount of RP/CP in the skill, namely 35+4. In fact, Bob would still have a higher skill even if he had invested LESS RP/CP - with only 35+3, he would still have a final skill of 68 in the Menton, vs. Alice's 67 (in the same Menton).
And Alice has a better aptitude and the same morph. I would not complain if they ended up with the *same* skill, but I find it very wrong that Alice should have a strictly lower skill despite having a better starting aptitude, the same morph, and the same investment (or higher) of RP/CP.
Tue, 2010-10-12 06:12
#6
garyplaysbass
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
The way I'm reading this is:
Alice COG 25 + Skill 35 (From creation) + 4 (RP) + 5 (Menton bonus capped) = 69
Bob COG 20 + Skill 35 + 4 + 10 (Menton bonus uncapped) = 69
I'm not coming up with a difference in scores.
Tue, 2010-10-12 07:53
#7
babayaga
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
No, because Alice COG 25 + 35CP -> skill 60.
At that point 4RP bring the skill to 62, not to 64.
So with the Menton bonus Alice gets to 67.
Tue, 2010-10-12 13:30
#8
kindalas
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
When you increase a skill, you pay 1 rez point when the ego's skill value is under 60 and 2 rez per point when over 60.
The bonus aptitudes that come from the morph and gear are applied afterwards.
So Jim's ego has a REF of 15 and a Fray of 55 (for 40 cp) and he is sleeved in a reaper morph. Which hives a +10 to REF and has a reflex booster implanted (as standard) for an aditional +10 in REF.
Jim sleeved in his morph has a FRAY of 75, and he can boost it up to 80 (for 5 REZ) before starting to pat 2 REZ per point.
But Jim whose FRAY is 80 (after spending 5 REZ) looses his reaper and has to sleeve in a Synth. His fray drops back down to 60.
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Tue, 2010-10-12 14:54
#9
babayaga
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
And - as I keep pointing out - this leads to a situation where a character A, with a higher natural aptitude and more Rez spent on a skill than character B, ends up with a LOWER skill score than B even when sleeved in the same morph.
Alice has COG 25, and spends 39 RP/CP on her Interest:Jovian politics.
Bob has COG 20, and spends 38 RP/CP on his Interest:Jovian politics.
Both are sleeved in Mentons.
Alice (including the Menton bonus) has an Interest: Jovian politics score of 67.
Bob (including the Menton bonus) has an Interest: Jovian politics score of 68.
Alice has higher "natural" COG, spent more RP/CP, but gets a LOWER skill score.
This feels very wrong to me, but the math is correct.
The first 35 RP/CP of Alice bring her "naked ego" skill to 60. At that point her advancement slows down and the remaining 4 RP/CP bring her skill score to 62. The menton offers +10 COG, but it boosts her COG by only 5 points, from 25 to 30, because its aptitude limit is 30. This yields Alice's final score of 67. On the other hand Bob can convert each of his 38 RP/CP into an extra skill point - his "naked ego" skill score is 20+38=58. Sleeved in the Menton, he gets a +10 boost to COG, from 20 to 30. His final score is then 68, higher than Alice's. Even though he is less gifted, spent less effort, and is sleeved in the same morph.
Tue, 2010-10-12 16:18
#10
Eos
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
This still fits with the game, this setting is filled with inequalities. If they were sleeved in any other morph besides menton she would have the advantage. Morphs are equipment, imposing bonuses and limitations as such.
Tue, 2010-10-12 16:01
#11
kindalas
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
Thats why Egos need to be matched to their morphs.
In your Example Alice is being punished because her morph can't fully take advantage of her Ego. She should purchase a Remade, then she'll have an effective COF of 35 to Bob's COG of 30
It's like driving a car, sure a Civic or Focus can his 100 mph but a Porsche can do it faster and safer. So even if the Stig is in the focus, James May will still be faster in the Porsche.
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Wed, 2010-10-13 12:29
#12
babayaga
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
Hmm, I may see your point, but here it's not so much an issue of unfairness, as one of logical inconsistency. It makes no sense that a character with better natural talent AND who has spent more effort on a skill, should end up WORSE than someone with less natural talent AND who has spent less effort.
This is not true. Any flat or case would produce the same inconsistency, as would any splicer, ruster or hibernoid with a +5 bonus to COG.
Thu, 2010-10-14 13:26
#13
Rapier
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
Assuming that both Bob and Alice start as Ego Morphs:
Alice is 25 Cog + 35 cp in Jovian Politics for a total of 60.
BoB is 20 Cog + 35 CP in Jovian Politics for a total for 55.
While leaved as flats:
Alice is 25 Cog + 35 Cp in Jovian Politics + 4 res spent = 62 (2 for 1). However the Morph limits her with a -5. Morph bonus are applied after not before (and aren't factored in for buying skills as far as I read it). So her final as a flat is 62 - 5 = 57.
Bob is 20 COG + 35 cp In Joavian Politics + 4 res spent = 59.
Now as Mentons:
Alice is 25 Cog + 35 Cp in Jovian Politics + 4 res spent = 62 (2 for 1). The Morph then gives her + 10 for Cog. So; 35 + 35 Cp in Jovian Politics + 4 res spent = 72 (2 for 1), Then - 5 because her aptitude max is actually 30 in this morph. So 67.
Bob is 20 COG + 35 cp In Joavian Politics + 4 res spent = 59. + 10 From the Menton Morph, giving him Cog 30, with no other changes he just gets to 69.
What makes this even less sensible is that to have 5 more Cog Alice invested 50 more DP to be better in this field.
Personally I think the problem lies in morphs setting maximum aptitudes and giving bonuses, the aptitude maximums reflect limitations of the Morph, but the bonuses are meant to reflect areas where they enhance you, however if you ever sleeve into a body where some of the stats you bought extra are wasted you end up with oddities like this - actually to the point where in EP I think if you expect to move bodies a lot buying stats directly is a bad idea.
A fluff rational for it incidentally, is that Alice is actually harmed by the limitation (I.e. she gets 25 + 10 Cog and then loses 5 from straining the menton morph), I do however think it's a flaw in the system.
Also, You should have given Alice Cog 30 and spending 30 res points for your example since that's the worst implication, both in Mentons Bob would effectively overtake her by 10%
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Thu, 2010-10-14 13:57
#14
Eos
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
Maybe house rule that the morph aptitude max applies only to natural aptitude and any bonuses from the morph itself stack.
Thu, 2010-10-14 14:19
#15
Rapier
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
I actually tried looking that up while writing my post (and avoiding other obligations :P) and couldn't find a definitive answer in the time I devoted too it.
It may be that it does work that way - as in, the morph bonus really is added as the final step.
If you don't add the +10 Cog on until the end of the equation you can end up with
Alice is 25 + 35 + 4 = 62 (2 for 1) her aptitude isn't above 30 so none is wasted, then you add 10 for morph bonus and are allowed to go to 72
Actually doing that resolves the entire skill issue, but it may well lead to issues with other areas. It would allow you to be 30 Cog, and get an "effective" + 10 to 40 cog in a Menton. That level of specialisation from the +10 morph bodies may not be balanced. (Ghosts with effective 40 COO, Remades with effective 50 in SOM and COG).
The way I understood it, those characters with those bonuses and levels would be too good, but actually it could well be intended that that is the case, I'll have to look into it more.
Edit: Having said it may not be balanced, it may be better balanced than the example before where Alice is down 50 dp/res points while doing something that should be in keeping with her character concept. If you were to make a Remade with effective 50 stats he has to buy up to 40 in those stats, and is then at risk of wasting a lot if he ever re-sleves into anything else, in practice it might mean a particularly hard Fury in Melee or a particularly good Ghost Sniper but not too much else (and actually it would please me if those morphs were a little more specialised, the way my group has done it with the + added in before attribute modifiers means high level ghosts and furies end up being almost exactly the same).
The more I think about it, the more I think it really should be that way and not the way I intuited it.
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Tue, 2010-10-26 18:03
#16
bblonski
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
You could also house rule that you just use your skill rating instead of skill + aptitude to determine the cost doubling point. You would have to lower the doubling point to 40 or so, but this should solve the problem and also help limit min/maxing by keeping the aptitude maximums (which should apply to the morph bonuses according to this post). For example, if Alice and Bob have both spent 35 CP on Jovian Politics, they would both only spend 1 CP per skill point until they reached 40 CP regardless of their aptitude or morph bonus.
Tue, 2010-10-26 23:43
#17
Decivre
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
Yet the inconsistency would not exist if they went with a Reaper, Infomorph or Remade, or got a morph that had the exceptional aptitude physical trait. That is the point: a person is expected to get a morph tailored to their abilities. If you do not, then there will be the ever-present risk that your current morph will hold you back. The same is true with other skills and talents: if you are an async, then you will have wasted points if you decide to start off with a synthmorph... you cannot use any async abilities. If you take the flight skill, you will have wasted points if you start off with a morph that can't fly.
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Wed, 2010-10-27 10:32
#18
Nychuus
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
For the sake of argument and clarification, lets say you have a certain player resleeving into his training-wheels morph:
an unfit (the trait, as ridiculous as that sounds) Case with the -5 in whatever aptitude is linked to his skill of the month.
After the "learning" he resleeves back into his custom munchkinned Remade. Does he:
A) gain and keep the skill points to rez points ratio of 1:1
or
B) gain and keep the skill points to rez points ratio of 1:2
I say neither. You have to recalculate skill point gains as in character generation following the same rules.
So in the above example:
In a Flat in the Jovian Jun..err.. Republic:
Alice: COG 20 + 35CP = 55 + 4RP = 59 total
Bob: COG 20 + 35CP = 55 + 4RP = 59 total
Re sleeved in Splicers (or whatever else you want that can give you +COG, it doesn't really matter.)
Alice: COG 25 + 35CP = 60 + 4RP (2 skill points) = 62 + Morph bonus to COG
Bob: COG 20 + 35CP = 55 + 4RP (4 skill points) = 59 + Morph bonus to COG
I'm posting this because I find it extremely silly that an unfit Flat can learn Unarmed Combat faster than someone else with an actual somatics attribute.
Wed, 2010-10-27 11:42
#19
Decivre
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
I don't see how someone in an unfit flat is going to learn unarmed combat faster. For one thing, the amount of Rez or CP that a skill costs is based on your actual aptitude score, sans morph and implant bonuses. If you have a 30 in SOM, it doesn't matter if you are in a flat or remade morph... you have a 30 for purposes of training a skill.
Ego SOM aptitude 30 + 30 skill points = 60 skill
In flat: SOM aptitude capped at 20 + 30 skill points = 50 skill
In remade: SOM aptitude capped at 40 with +10 morph bonus + 30 skill points = 70 skill
If it makes it easier, assume for all training purposes that you are working with an infomorph. No bonuses, no caps. Calculate all skill based on raw aptitudes when training and expending CP/Rez, then add all bonuses and limitations afterwards. Morph really doesn't affect that (though there is some debate whether the Hyper Linguist implant and trait affect this for language skills).
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Thu, 2010-10-28 08:30
#20
Nychuus
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
That was just a joke for me to mention that based on the above arguments on how you can flip-flop through inferior morphs to keep your 4 RP spent at an equivalent 4 skill points gain. Because, TBH, I know someone who may try that.
It also gives me an idea for an NPC...
I totally agree that RP spending should be as you describe. I just said it differently and in more confusing words... I think...
Thu, 2010-10-28 19:04
#21
babayaga
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
This looks to me the best solution, by far.
Mon, 2010-11-01 01:24
#22
Teryn
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
Shouldn't the bonus from the morph be counted in after spending points? Just like in character creation? That would make a lot more sense, at least to me.
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Mon, 2010-11-01 01:26
#23
Decivre
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
Exactly. I'm pretty sure this is what the developers intended. So far as I can tell, I have seen nothing that is really vague enough to have any other interpretation.
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Mon, 2010-11-01 12:45
#24
babayaga
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
Decivre, I think there's a fundamental point that may be unclear. The same morph, more natural aptitude, more skill - I agree this may lead to no better performance (if the morph is "holding you back"), but should not lead to *strictly*worse* performance.
A knows flight and B doesn't, both in a morph without wings - same performance, they can't fly. That's ok. What's not ok is that B can fly and A can't. A is an async and is not, both in a synth - neither can use psi abilities. That's ok. What's not ok is that B can use psi and A can't.
Instead, with the current rules, putting extra effort into your natural aptitude AND extra effort into your skill, can WORSEN your performance (not just leave it unchanged). That's a serious defect of the game's mechanics in my opinion.
Mon, 2010-11-01 14:07
#25
Decivre
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
No, it doesn't. Morphs have an apex point in aptitudes at which further improvement does nothing. To move beyond that apex means no improvement, not a worsening of performance. Every point you raise an aptitude beyond 20 while you're in a flat is wasted. You don't suddenly get treated as if you have a 19 in the skill by moving to 21... that would be worsening the effect.
However, this is the point, and why choosing a body is integral to playing the character. If your skillset is such that your body isn't capable of handling your ego at full capacity, you should probably thinking about getting a different body. Much like how you wouldn't use a non-flying morph when you are skilled at flying, or a synthmorph when you're an async, you shouldn't have body that has a 20-point cap on aptitudes when your aptitudes reach up to 30. It's going to hold you back, and that's that.
As an example, one of my characters is an async with 35 raw willpower for an ego trait. However, he is one of the Lost, and started off with a futura. In that futura, only the first 20 points of willpower do anything: the futura has a cap of 30, but a +10 bonus in willpower, making the last 15 points completely useless... until my character switches to a different body.
That's really the point. You really have to think about your character's body as more akin to a piece of equipment than your actual character. If you are going to think of your character's body as a component of your character, then you have to build your character accordingly... don't raise your character's aptitudes above 20 if you have a flat, and make note of any morph bonuses you have in an aptitude so you know to keep that aptitude lower. It's not a problem with the game, but rather a game element that differs from similar games and equally requires a different outlook.
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Mon, 2010-11-01 15:33
#26
mds
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
Consider three possibilities:
Alice and Bob sleeved in Flats, sleeved in Splicer, and sleeved in Mentons.
Alice's base stats are 25 COG, 35 CP at chargen placed into Jovian Politics, and 4 RP spent during play. Since her ego hit a skill of 60 with the aptitude and CP, the 4 RP only buy 2 points. In an Splicer (or any morph with an aptitude maximum of 25+, and no bonuses or maluses to COG or politics), Alice's skill total is 25 + 35 + 4/2 = 62. In a Flat, it's only 20 + 35 + 4/2 = 57. In a Menton, it's 30 (capped from 35) + 35 + 4/2 = 67.
Bob's base stats are 20 COG, 35 CP at chargen place into Jovian Politics, and 4 RP spent during play. Since before the RP were spent, his skill total was just 55, the 4 RP buy points 1:1. In a Splicer (or any morph with an aptitude maximum of 20+, and no bonuses or maluses to COG or politics), Bob's skill total is 20 + 35 + 4 = 59. In a Flat, his skill is the same. In a Menton, it's 30 + 35 + 4 = 69.
The result is that in any situation where Alice's COG is being capped, she will lose to Bob, in spite of the fact that Alice has spent *more* points on COG, and as many points on improving the skill itself. I don't have any objection to Alice and Bob tying in these circumstances, but Bob shouldn't be [b]doing better[/b] for having lower base aptitudes.
My proposed fix would be to allow the points spent on boosting a skill over 60 to "decompress" by one point for every point being capped, giving Alice and Bob equal skills again, by boosting Alice to Bob's levels.
Alternatively, calculate pre-morph bonus scores as before, but hold off applying points boosting the score above 60. Apply all bonuses, caps, etc. and then spend the remaining points, with points boosting the score above 60 counting for half. This would give both Alice and Bob lower (but equal) scores. I think the former solution is easier, and more fun for the players.
In both cases, unlike the current situation, in any morph where Alice can fully flex her mind, she'll come out ahead, but she'll never suffer more from what should be an equal handicap.
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Mon, 2010-11-01 15:51
#27
Decivre
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
Why shouldn't Alice be handicapped in such a situation? Having higher aptitudes likely means that she is more accustomed to, or better situationed for, a more advanced morph. When placed in a morph that isn't capable of keeping up with her ego, why wouldn't it hold her back and handicap her?
Let's get outside the framework of the mechanics for a second. Let's take Alice and Bob and presume they are martial artists. Both are going to train for an equal period of their lives. The difference? Bob was born blind, and is therefore learning how to fight as a blind person. In a toe-to-toe fight against Alice, Bob is clearly disadvantaged despite spending just as long training, simply because he is naturally blind, which is itself a handicap.
But what if Alice is blinded? According to your logic, she should now fight equally-well as Bob, despite the fact that Bob has spent all of his time practicing blind already. According to my theory, Alice would now be at a disadvantage, and Bob would have a clear advantage.
This is the way I feel the framework of the game works. A person with aptitudes above a given morph's caps will be not just limited, but hobbled by being placed in a morph clearly incapable of handling the full potential of the ego. This helps enforce the idea that selection of morph is just as integral and important a selection as your chosen equipment for a specific job.
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Mon, 2010-11-01 16:48
#28
mds
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
That logic will apply for when both are sleeved in Flats, but when both are sleeved in the Mentons, it would be akin to saying that if we give Bob sight, and extend both people's range of vision, Bob should still do better, even though Alice is far more accustomed to using sight when fighting (or in the Menton case, more used to taking advantage of the extra COG).
In addition, it doesn't explain why this handicap for Alice only starts showing up once her training has gotten good enough, rather than showing up in case where her COG is capped. In the blind fighting analogy, if Alice and Bob were a bit less skilled, Alice wouldn't be handicapped when both were blind, or when both were sighted and augmented, but in spite of being equal after years of training, the last few months gave Alice a 2 point handicap to Bob, even though they might have been training under identical circumstances (both blind, or both sighted & augmented/both in Flat, or both in Menton).
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Mon, 2010-11-01 17:34
#29
bblonski
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
I agree this is a weird phenomenon. The problem is that the cost of skills doubles sooner for the more naturally talented character than it does for the artificially boosted character. I like to think of this as the more naturally talented you become, the more effort you have to spend to keep yourself sharp (remember that aptitudes can be trained as well and aren't necessarily determined from birth), kinda like how someone who is physically fit has to spend more effort exercising to say fit than someone who is unfit.
Alice has to spend more effort because she has to keep her ego sharp. Bob doesn't have to spend this extra effort since he's relying on the morph's bonus, but Alice knows that her current morph is holding her back and she has to spend more effort to train her ego's maximum ability even though her current ability suffers.
If she really feels disadvantaged, she can request a morph with an exceptional aptitude in COG to reach her full potential since her maximum ability is still higher than Bob's.
Mon, 2010-11-01 19:56
#30
Decivre
Re: Skill advancement inconsistency
Again, why wouldn't Bob fight better? Granting him sight doesn't give him any disadvantage, nor hobble him in any way. You are giving him a brand new advantage, atop whatever he is already used to. There might be a period of time as he is getting used to the effects (which would be represented by the penalties that are incurred when someone is first sleeved into a new morph), but otherwise he is in a better off position, with an equal amount of combat experience.
While this might seem unfair that a person who trains in a skill while not raising the aptitude has an advantage in this particular scenario, do note that the same person is at a disadvantage in all other elements of their aptitude. Someone with SOM 20 and Freerunning 40 is equally skilled as someone with SOM 10 and Freerunning 40, but also has an advantage in every other SOM skill in which they are both not trained because of sheer natural talent. The only place where both are equals are where their experience equates... for which the one with higher aptitude had to spend less points to get there.
There are other innate disadvantages for the character with lower aptitudes. In the previous example, the character with the lower SOM score also deals less damage in melee. If you have two asyncs, one of which has lower WIL aptitude while both have equal skill in psi skills, the one with higher WIL is more resilient to mental stress as well. Furthermore, a character with high aptitude requires a smaller point investment to become competent in brand new skills, something that could become quite useful as a character diversifies. Lastly, skillware brings any given skill up to 40 points, regardless of aptitude... but the limitations to how many skills may be loaded up is based on the difference between the aptitude value and 40. The higher the aptitude, the more skillware a character can load up on. To say that there is no inherent advantage to a higher aptitude is incorrect, and using a morph with a lower aptitude cap is the single scenario in which such a character might be at a disadvantage.
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