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Shell Collision, and why gnats are OP

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Fenrir Fenrir's picture
Shell Collision, and why gnats are OP
I have sone credits to blow, so I buy 6 gnats for 1,500 credits. I get into a fight, so I remote operate two gnats to fly at max speed into the other guy (2 simple actions). Shell collision rules: do 1d10+ceiling(DUR/10) at walking speed, x2 for running, or x(Velocity/10) at chase speeds. Given the gnat has DUR of 25 and is moving at a maximum velocity of 60, tjat means that each gnat does (1d10+3)x6 damage, or an average of 48 damage!!! And I just "fired" two with one action! If I have mental speed, I can fire all 6! Sure, that means the gnat is dead too, but still. I can get more without any real hassle. Now, this IS still more expensive than just buying a pistol, and per shor I'm paying a lot more. But I need way fewer shots per kill. And it IS cheaper and more damaging than grenades (unless you get your enemies to all bunch together, anyway) For extra fun, saucers are still low, but have a max speed of 200, for (1d10+3)×20=approx 160 DV!?! Please someone explain to me why teleoperated frisbees are not a sentinel's primary weapon of choice?
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
Max velocity is in kilometers
Max velocity is in kilometers per hour, while shell damage in a crash is calculated from meters per turn (roughly 3 seconds) A gnat at max safe velocity is actually moving at 16.6 m/s, (~49 m/3s) so the multiplier should be x5 not x6, though that doesn't make much of a difference. As for why a sentinel wouldn't use a drone as a weapon there's a simple reason: Max velocity and chase speeds aren't allowed in combat. Traveling faster than the shells run speed takes the shell out of combat, and prevents it from interacting with people using stuff like the combat rules. GM discretion can override this, but RAW, you can't go that fast and attempt to ram. This means that max damage for both a Gnat and Saucer is actually 2d10+6, with 0 AP, making it weaker than a half-credit rifle bullet.
Fenrir Fenrir's picture
So what you're saying is...If
So what you're saying is...If a direct action merc pulls a plasma rifle on me...I can just run around him as fast as I can and he can't shoot at me? (Because I'm moving as fast as I can, its at the shell's max apeed, which is outside run soeed, which pulls me out of combat and the merc can't affect me with combat rules)???
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
No, you can't go that fast.
No, you can't go that fast. Walking/Running speeds are used in combat.
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Fenrir wrote:So what you're
Fenrir wrote:
So what you're saying is...If a direct action merc pulls a plasma rifle on me...I can just run around him as fast as I can and he can't shoot at me? (Because I'm moving as fast as I can, its at the shell's max apeed, which is outside run soeed, which pulls me out of combat and the merc can't affect me with combat rules)???
No. As you attempt to sprint out of combat, the merc will shoot you in the back and wonder what the hell that was all about. There's always a level of realism breakdown in combat rules, but not being able to reach your max straight-line run speed [i]while fighting for your life[/i] isn't one of them.
Fenrir Fenrir's picture
I was half-way joking, but it
I was half-way joking, but it still doesn't sit well with me that the presence or absence of combat controls how fast things can move. Should it take multiple turns, during which your complex action is "moving fast"? Yeah. But it shouldn't be "You can't." Otherwise the difference of whether or not you can use frisbees as death-dealers is whether or not the guy knows it's coming. If this were because he can DODGE that would make sense. But the rules say the difference is the frisbee can't get fast because there's this meta-state called combat going on. I'd totally accept that you lose speed for making fray checks though, because then it makes sense that you'd lose speed because you're trying to dodge attacks. But not just because the guy you want to hit happens to be fighting your buddy right now. EDIT: Though you REALLY don't want to fumble that check... >_>"
MrWigggles MrWigggles's picture
So this is a question of
So this is a question of acceleration. In which case, unless you're like a professional sprinter, like 2 combat turns. And thats what you're doing. So you'd get shot. And that probably stop you from running. UNless you can think of Usian Bolts who then also tumble while gaining speed.
eaton eaton's picture
Quote: Should it take
Quote:
Should it take multiple turns, during which your complex action is "moving fast"? Yeah. But it shouldn't be "You can't."
Concur. The rule I've used is that reaching max cruising speed requires one action turn for each increment of your running speed. So, for example, a nutso tricked out rocket morph with 4 / 20 / 200 would be able to reach 20 in a single action turn, but it'd take 10 turns moving in one direction continuously to reach its cruising speed. If you're fighting thugs with melee weapons and no ranged gear, and you just want to get away, that's fine. However, in order to use a small bot as a weapon, you'd need to burn up so many action turns getting distance, then turning around and accelerating again, that you'd probably be dead before the plan worked. Could be fun if you're at long range and have the element of surprise, though at that point it's worth asking why a homing HEAP Seeker isn't simpler and easier. Because that's what you're talking about making — a gnat-shaped seeker weapon.
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Thank you MrWigggles, you
Thank you MrWigggles, you have it exactly. And I wouldn't let you fray or dodge either, because those involve A) Seeing where the fire is coming from and B) moving in directions other than straight ahead. So 99.9% of the time, you will be shot in the back and fall down.
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Just do what my players did:
Just do what my players did: equip the saucer drones with plasma grenades. The collision damage is negligible unless you're ramming them into newborn kittens. The ground-zero contact-burst plasma grenade damage is anything but negligible.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
MrWigggles MrWigggles's picture
^^^^ Legit.
^^^^ Legit.
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Suicide Drones are basically
Suicide Drones are basically Smart Mines.
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
UnitOmega wrote:Suicide
UnitOmega wrote:
Suicide Drones are basically Smart Mines.
The funny thing is that they were two steps [i]ahead[/i] of the obvious countermeasure to suicide drones, too. They programmed the drones for all the world to look like some rando cheap-shot amateur hour crap that may take someone by surprise once, but will then be spoofed to attack their owners in a glorious orgy of plasmatic irony. The drones were all running a very sophisticated set of passive-sensor IFF routines to distinguish friends. They [i]could[/i] be given legit commands to attack allies/the drone rigger (in case of, say, exsurgent infestation)... But not solely by radio. If they were given [i]illegitimate[/i] commands to attack friends, they auto-attacked the transmitter that sent the command unless it was within burst radius of a friendly, and flagged it hostile on the team tacnet under the presumption that it was spoofing legitimate commands. If an illegitimate attack order came from an otherwise-legitimate source, they screamed out an infosec failure alert that sends [i]everybody's[/i] meshes into failsafe modes that crash out and ignore radio comms entirely and switch to alternative communication protocols, under the presumption that the tacnet had been compromised and a hostile was routing illegitimate commands through an otherwise-trusted transponder.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
I'm not really sure what
I'm not really sure what suicide drones do better than a seeker minimissile.
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Trappedinwikipedia wrote:I'm
Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
I'm not really sure what suicide drones do better than a seeker minimissile.
They probably don't trip anti-Seeker detection/countermeasures. Unless they also have Thrust Vector.
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Trappedinwikipedia wrote:I'm
Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
I'm not really sure what suicide drones do better than a seeker minimissile.
Sooooo many things. You can't set a seeker minimissile to stay behind and torpedo the first person to chase you around a corner. You can't send a seeker minimissile to navigate doglegged air ducts and use a multi-tool attachment to cut its way out of the duct in order to detonate its warhead directly against the containment bottle of a fusion reactor. You can't set a dozen seeker minimissiles to act as a Very Dangerous Array which identifies hostiles and, if appropriate conditions are met, engage without requiring further orders. You can't use a seeker minimissile for everything a Saucer drone is good for doing.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Justice rains from the skies.
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
You can't set a seeker minimissile to stay behind and torpedo the first person to chase you around a corner. You can't send a seeker minimissile to navigate doglegged air ducts and use a multi-tool attachment to cut its way out of the duct in order to detonate its warhead directly against the containment bottle of a fusion reactor. You can't set a dozen seeker minimissiles to act as a Very Dangerous Array which identifies hostiles and, if appropriate conditions are met, engage without requiring further orders.
Maybe you can't :P ... Okay, the multitool bit is a stretch, but that's what 'two' seekers are for :) Otherwise, I'd personally be okay with a character reprogramming seekers to do tasks like that. Worst case I'd make it an upgrade that can be added to seeker launchers.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
You can't set a seeker minimissile to stay behind and torpedo the first person to chase you around a corner. You can't send a seeker minimissile to navigate doglegged air ducts and use a multi-tool attachment to cut its way out of the duct in order to detonate its warhead directly against the containment bottle of a fusion reactor. You can't set a dozen seeker minimissiles to act as a Very Dangerous Array which identifies hostiles and, if appropriate conditions are met, engage without requiring further orders.
Maybe you can't :P ... Okay, the multitool bit is a stretch, but that's what 'two' seekers are for :) Otherwise, I'd personally be okay with a character reprogramming seekers to do tasks like that. Worst case I'd make it an upgrade that can be added to seeker launchers.
Seekers are scramjet missiles with guidance packages. They have four speeds only: not-yet-fired, full boost, coasting, and collided. They can't loiter, they can't do fine navigation like making hairpin turns or taking a corridor slow.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]