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Reputation curve

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Tue, 2011-06-07 22:05

mickykitsune mickykitsune's picture

Reputation curve

I've been fiddling with the notion of something that I've kinda been doing on the fly during my game. The players have worked out that they want to keep their rep scores as high as possible, and it kinda seems to me that it's a little too easy - or perhaps, easier than it ought to be - for the players to keep their rep levels at the highest point. The way i see it, 90-100 reputation in a given network should represent.. I don't know.... system-wide fame and popularity, rather than an exploitable game mechanic. I tried to summarise some of these feelings using the chart below. Where I think that the higher you raise your reputation, the harder it should be to increase and maintain at that level. What do you guys think?

Attachment	Size
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Tue, 2011-06-07 23:02

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Reputation curve

I certainly agree that it's trivial (to the point of being mandatory) to get your rep in 3 networks into the 5th tier at chargen. An increasing curve seems like the obvious solution.

Wed, 2011-06-08 04:51

The Demon Code The Demon Code's picture

Re: Reputation curve

I disagree. I view the mechanical rep scores (the 0-99 of the game system) as a measure of trustworthiness and ability to repay favors instead of fame and popularity. Sort of like a modified credit rating system. When people want to do you favors they check the rep systems to see if you're on the up and up, not to see if you're super popular.

Wed, 2011-06-08 06:03

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Reputation curve

I would handle it by increasing the demands. A high rep means: People pay attention to what you do - a small misstep that wouldn't matter much at a lower rep will be magnified. A racist remark, apparent support for the Barsoomians, being held up in customs for some illegal software, and you are suddenly in trouble. People will report on what you do - they will blog that you passed by ("OMG! You won't believe who I saw in the elevator right now!!!"), there will be paparazzi, sousveilance people and reporters from The Economist trying to get an interview ("Sir, do you have any comment on the Plurality vote?"). Even going incognito can be tough (a PC had a false identity, but couldn't hide all personality quirks, so soon the wrong people correctly deduced which hypercorp scion was gracing their den of iniquity). People come to you for help, and you are expected to do great things - can you intimidate the DeLagos Triad, would you speak for the network at the Consortium Debate, would you join the review board inspecting the Etemananki debacle, could you design a dragon for me... pleeeese? Turning them down will start reducing your rep. In short, having a high rep is a *job*. It combines the issues of fame with maintaining a big social network and time management. Some rep might be more like enduring fame for doing a particular thing, but the everyday rep is tightly tied to social interaction and trade. My own preferred solution is to discuss this with the PCs, and ask them what kind of game they want.

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Wed, 2011-06-08 07:32

The Demon Code The Demon Code's picture

Re: Reputation curve

Arenamontanus wrote:
People will report on what you do - they will blog that you passed by ("OMG! You won't believe who I saw in the elevator right now!!!"), there will be paparazzi, sousveilance people and reporters from The Economist trying to get an interview ("Sir, do you have any comment on the Plurality vote?"). Even going incognito can be tough (a PC had a false identity, but couldn't hide all personality quirks, so soon the wrong people correctly deduced which hypercorp scion was gracing their den of iniquity). People come to you for help, and you are expected to do great things - can you intimidate the DeLagos Triad, would you speak for the network at the Consortium Debate, would you join the review board inspecting the Etemananki debacle, could you design a dragon for me... pleeeese? Turning them down will start reducing your rep.

This is why I dislike the high rep = celebrity view (except for possibly f-Rep). Imagine a superbly skilled assassin. This assassin is so good that all his victims appear to have died in tragic accidents and, for one reason or another, couldn't be restored from backup. All investigations into the deaths haven't uncovered a shred of evidence suggesting foul play. Only those with stellar g-Reps even know that he exists. Naturally, he is stalked by paparazzi, gets random e-mail from people asking him to kill their in-laws, and gets his picture taken by gawkers every time he rides an elevator. The assassin has an extremely valuable skill, which he should be highly compensated for (high rep), but under the high rep = celebrity system, he can't be because then he would end up being a celebrity with his face all over the tabloids (or future equivalent).

Wed, 2011-06-08 08:38

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Reputation curve

Yes, I can see why assassin rep shouldn't be like celebrity rep. And the famous scientist doesn't get hounded by paparazzi, she gets hounded by lesser researchers who want her comments on their latest papers. High rep produces different reactions, but they do take time and effort - the assassin needs to maintain anonymity and likely have a bunch of smart people looking carefully for her, the top reclaimer will be targeted by Planetary Consortium subversion projects from time to time.

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Wed, 2011-06-08 18:51

mickykitsune mickykitsune's picture

Re: Reputation curve

A high rep doesnt necessarily reflect universal fame or popularity.. it represents different things for each particular social group. [list] [*]If you're high on the @-list, it might represent being an important and respected free thinker and innovator (real world example... maybe Steve Wozniak or Kevin Rose?) [*]If you're high on the f-list, well that's like being one of the glitterati today - fame, popularity, Biebermania.. [*]If you're high on the c-list, that's like being well known as one of the top executives or troubleshooters in industry - businesses might seek you out, try to recruit you, even start bidding wars over your signature. [*]If you're high on the e-list, you're a very popular and outspoken and passionate ecologist, a rallying point for everyone who believes in a greener future. [*]If you're high on the g-list, you're not famous. You're infamous. You're not known by name, but you're known by reputation - i'm thinking Day of the Jackal here. People don't know you, but they know how to get in touch if they need something major done. [*]If you're high on the r-list, you might be one of the most senior and respected scientists and researchers going around - everyone wants to read your paper, and you'll be constantly hit up with research proposals and invitations to sit on scholarship councils. You're probably also in the running for a seat on the Nobel Prize committee. [*]If you're high on the i-list... that means you're probably the go-to guy for Firewall. You've earned the respect and support of your peers, and you've shown that you're trustworthy. You're probably going to work your way deeper into the organisation. [/list] Each different social network would have different levels of weighting and associated behaviour, I'm sure, and in some ways it would be tempered by what kind of person you are, what kinds of work and actions you perform, and what kinds of networks you court. I just dont think it should be reputation ala. most MMO games, where you just have to grind to raise it and it doesnt matter what you do or who you work for.

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Wed, 2011-06-08 22:27

Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture

Re: Reputation curve

The Demon Code wrote:
This is why I dislike the high rep = celebrity view (except for possibly f-Rep). Imagine a superbly skilled assassin. This assassin is so good that all his victims appear to have died in tragic accidents and, for one reason or another, couldn't be restored from backup. All investigations into the deaths haven't uncovered a shred of evidence suggesting foul play. Only those with stellar g-Reps even know that he exists. Naturally, he is stalked by paparazzi, gets random e-mail from people asking him to kill their in-laws, and gets his picture taken by gawkers every time he rides an elevator. The assassin has an extremely valuable skill, which he should be highly compensated for (high rep), but under the high rep = celebrity system, he can't be because then he would end up being a celebrity with his face all over the tabloids (or future equivalent).

Have you seen the movie The Mechanic, with Jason Statham? the Mechanics, in this movie, are highly skilled killers for hire working for a "corporation" that issues them this or that contract, with the intel and demands about it. I think that a high G-rep would provided employees of a specialized hypercorps the juiciest, but also the most dangerous, difficult jobs. lower rep freelancers would come to him or her [i]them[/i] for training before they're accepted. that alone provides great storyhooks and a way to welcome new coming character and/or players in a group already playing in a campaign. A give veteran player (and/or character) is giving the side job show the ropes (iC with tactics, info about the world, and OoC with the game system quite rotes, and stuff like that. As a reward the player get Rez point and the character either win some Rep or doesn't loose it if he's high profile that's something we've done in my gaming crew when a new player joined in either for a one-shot or for the long run. in vampire the Masquerade, about ten years ago, one of the player character sired a new player character from kine to kindred and learned her the ropes of the game. Now, in our current game, set in 17th century Venice, she plays an influencial courtisanes home matron as well as an espionage network for a cell of Hunters. I dare not (yet) imagine what characters they'll come up with in the EP verse. We'll have to wait for at least the french version of the quickstart to start.

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Wed, 2011-06-08 23:24

The Demon Code The Demon Code's picture

Re: Reputation curve

I totally agree that each rep network is going to have different characteristics and require a certain amount of maintenance to keep the rep up. It's just a pet-peeve of mine that people automatically assume that High Rep = Popularity/Fame/Celebrity, when this only really makes sense for certain characters with high f-Rep. However, the game doesn't bother to mechanically simulate finances (inflation, interest rates, stock market options, etc.) and I see no reason to simulate the detailed working of rep scores. Especially as maintaining a higher rep score would not necessarily be harder than maintaining a lower score: people with more resources (high scores) may be better able to grow and protect their resources (depending on the characteristics of the network in question, of course). As an analogy using the current economic system: consider the net worth of a person who works three jobs just to get by (equivalent to low rep) and one who makes a thousand dollars a second (equivalent to high rep). The first person is going to have a much harder time of maintaining their net worth than the second. Also, from a game play perspective, I don't find high-rep scores to be that game breaking. They mainly just reduce the time needed to obtain a favor (which is mainly why I interpret the games 0-99 score rating as sort of a credit score/trustworthiness index), and I don't see that as enough to justify a lot of effort fussing with them. YMMV of course. Note that I am not saying that the rep scores can't provide characterization/plot hooks, just that the details can be glossed over. Finally, no I haven't seen the Mechanic. Trailer looks interesting though, so I will add it to my list.

Wed, 2011-06-08 23:37

#10

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Reputation curve

And for those people who do want more detailed rep systems, have a look using search through the home brew section. There are quite a few modifications (some written by me) that can help you along.

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Thu, 2011-06-09 00:15

#11

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Reputation curve

I don't think it matters what you think rep *is*, it matters that it's trivial from a mechanical perspective to get it as high as is useful. The other aspects are certainly important for roleplay and setting, but the game balance issue is that.

Thu, 2011-06-09 11:17

#12

Janusfaced Janusfaced's picture

Re: Reputation curve

I agree "rep is credit rating" view for a few reasons. 1: Some sample characters in Sunward don't fit with "rep is social status" view. Examples; Direct Action Mercenary: their c-rep is 85. I feel they is a soldier(not a general) from description, but 85 is too high, even for an elite small-unit leader with many military medals. Oligarch: they has very high reps, but "rarely step into the spotlight, preferring to remain behind the scenes as an enigmatic éminence grise"(from description). Oversight Auditor: like Direct Action Mercenary, they has high c-rep(80) and not-so-high status(I feel they is a government agent). Triad Soldier: has high g-rep(85) and not-so-high status("power in the organization is still limited", from description). 2: high rep is affordable by rule. While it makes sense high credit rating is affordable, it doesn't make sense high status is affordable as high credit rating. 3: if high rep bring social bother like job or fame, it makes diffcult to work as a secret agent(ie, Firewall Sentinel). And if high rep does bring them, it would require rules about how high rep bother secret activities.

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Thu, 2011-06-09 14:17

#13

root

Re: Reputation curve

root@Rep curve [hr] Maybe rep could stand more as a confidence interval than a status symbol? As opposed to a c-rep of 90 meaning that you are a CEO with resources to topple the world (that should be represented through resources, contacts, and skills), it represents how confident others in the c-rep community are that you can do what you claim. A security guard who has performed well for the last fifty years may have a very high c-rep, so if some Firewall people sneak past her, people will assume the agents were very good rather than the security guard is bad. Likewise and the young, unblooded CEO may have power but the market will react very negatively if she screws up, whereas an old, high-rep CEO can probably lose half the companies worth before the market starts getting on their case.

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[ @-rep +1 | c-rep +1 | g-rep +1 | r-rep +1 ]