The Republic vs Hyoden- how would it go?

Sun, 2015-03-15 19:30

#2

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

That depends on how

That depends on how successful the Jovian plan to infiltrate commandos into Hyoden are, and whether the citizenry of Hyoden have counter-contingencies in place. It also depends on whether an overt attack on Hyoden galvanizes Gerðr and the other Callistan city-states against the Junta, or not. Either way, though, the Junta will win a Phyrric victory. No single city-state, or even confederation of them, has the firepower to resist the Jovian navy indefinitely, and the Jovians can simply bombard them from orbit. The subsurface cities would be trickier. I think the most likely outcome is that the Jovians will have to re-learn the lesson of Hydrogen's Promise. They'll try to take the city, old-school, get-more-boots-on-the-ground-than-they-have-and-we-own-it warfare, their marines will continually be shredded by the Hyoden natives' full embrace of transhuman technologies, but thanks to orbital supremacy and their manufacturing capability, they'll eventually start to push in, despite the locals making the place an absolute death-trap. And then, boom. The city is gone, replaced by a radioactive crater. The folks who lived there turn up on Mars, or Titan, or flung to the four fucking winds, and will say that they preferred to literally nuke their home than to let it be taken from them by force or accept the yoke of the Junta. The Jovians will be completely fucking embarrassed, not to mention they'll have lost a great many precious egos, while their reinstantiated victims exhort everyone to be ready to do the same when the Junta comes calling.

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Mon, 2015-03-16 17:56

#3

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture

Direct War? It's just the 17

Direct War? It's just the 17 minute war all over again but with more gravity wells. There's not much point in taking Hyoden by force, the whole population is military trained, and with abundant natural resources the Jovians wouldn't need a lot of time to rebuild a new city there. They vaporize the city from space, after all, it's what the frankensteins would do if they were invaded. Taking territory only makes sense if there is a biosphere which can be preserved through the fighting, or there won't be anything left if you blow it up (space habs), so absolutely destroying Hyoden is the best way to take it. Hydrogen's promise doesn't properly apply, because there is no need to save the hab. That said, there's a decent chance that Hyoden could hit back pretty hard while it died, as they have their own strategic scale weapons, which makes an attack like that dangerously close to MAD. There probably won't ever be a hot war between Hyoden and the JR. The Jovians might use commando teams to disrupt Hyoden C4I long enough for the strategic strike to hit unopposed, they'd be vaporized as well, but the JR military backs up its troops so thats no real loss. Still chancy though, so probably a bad idea when the stakes are that high. The best way to win a war with the EP tech base is with memetic warfare, basically just run a long grassroots infowar campaign which convinces enough of the population that the current Hyoden leadership is repressive and tyrannical (it would help if they became repressive and tyrannical in an attempt to stop the infowar movement). And that a relationship to the JR more like Europa's would be better than an insane military standoff which eats up local resources by the kilocred and leaves everyone worrying that today is the day the war goes hot. This is by far the best option available to the Jovians imo. A boots on the ground traditional war is very unlikely to happen, as the Jovian's aren't interested in another Hydrogen's promise like battle, but Hyoden seems pretty hell-bent on physically defending the city (as the omnipresent military training and morphs like the Fenrir attest) which means that it might be possible for the Jovians to actually take the city if they can make the battle happen in such a way that Hyoden never decides to blow itself up before the battle ends. One thing to keep in mind is that while the Jovian people are generally very bioconservative, the same cannot be said for the military leadership of the Republic, which means that the the Jovian military, particularly elite or front line units (units kind of similar to the Syrian Republican Guard for example) probably have more in common with the Rorties than any modern military. At the least, even RE parts of the JR military are very much more transhumanist than the civilian republic, with backups being omnipresent and stacks being fairly common (but probably pretty rare in a battlefield) and all kinds of banned technologies becoming common. It's a weird split between the civilian population which wants to remain very human and the military, which knows that it needs to embrace every advantage in order to remain on top of the situation in the solar system.

Tue, 2015-03-17 16:06

#4

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

Opening their conflict by

Opening their conflict by nuking Hyoden would go very, very poorly for the Jovians, because it would be an open invitation for literally everyone who doesn't like them to start booting nukes, antimatter, and kinetic kill vehicles straight at them. They would have, after all, proved to have zero hesitation in nuking civilian habitation centers. Imagine if Pyongyang suffered a fit of retardation and decided to start reunifying the Koreas by nuking the South. The Chinese would drop them like a radioactive hot potato, and the U.S. would retaliate in kind. [e]And that's not even taking into account the fact that Firewall would get involved. With the status quo in place, the Junta remains a viable reserve of transhumanity, albeit very low on the trans scale. If they're just going to nuke transhuman habitats wholesale when they want to take their resources, they're going to be acting like the nuttiest of squirrel-shit rogue states, and would themselves then constitute an existential risk to transhumanity. At that point, Firewall has avested interest in seeing them either wiped out or going through some severe regime change at least.

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Thu, 2015-03-19 13:12

#5

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture

ShadowDragon8685 wrote

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Opening their conflict by nuking Hyoden would go very, very poorly for the Jovians, because it would be an open invitation for literally everyone who doesn't like them to start booting nukes, antimatter, and kinetic kill vehicles straight at them. They would have, after all, proved to have zero hesitation in nuking civilian habitation centers. If they're just going to nuke transhuman habitats wholesale when they want to take their resources, they're going to be acting like the nuttiest of squirrel-shit rogue states, and would themselves then constitute an existential risk to transhumanity. At that point, Firewall has avested interest in seeing them either wiped out or going through some severe regime change at least.

This whole conflict is really hypothetical, as if the Jovians really wanted to fight Hyoden, they would have been much better off doing it a long time ago. Excluding really unlikely regime changes on either side, the Jovian-Hyoden War will probably never happen. This makes any kind of conflict between them an inherently contrived and implausible scenario, which is where stuff like a nuclear exchange comes from. The Jovians have already launched pretty much unprovoked nuclear strikes on population centers, that was the 17 minute war. That makes it pretty unlikely that everyone else will lose it and launch as well, or that exchange would already have happened. Unless the JR uses RKKVs or something else which is really threatening to neighbors outside of Jupiter's gravity well (missile strikes aren't so threatening when you have literal weeks to stop them) it'll remain a local war. No one is going to launch WMDs at the Jovians besides Hyoden, as they'd largely be ineffectual at that range, and the Jovians would shoot back, which no one wants. If they wanted Hyoden gone, escalating tensions until they have something which looks enough like a justification to launch strategic weapons in self defense against a probable strike from Hyoden. With their superior forces, they can put enough pressure on Hyoden that they either need to surrender, or attempt to launch a strategic strike they can't win or capitulate to the Jovians. The JR won't open with a strategic strike, because that looks bad, and is riskier than other options. If nothing else, escalating tensions by putting a fleet nearby makes them safer by increasing the chances of intercepting weapon strikes from Hyoden itself. Hyoden isn't really a civilian target anyway, as it is impossible to obtain citizenship without being either active or reserve military, which makes it easier to justify use of force against them. If nothing else, throwing expendable bodies at them until they decide to blow themselves up or surrender would be a viable option, if probably not the most efficient. Wars using the EP tech base require WMDs to win, as between backups and the incredible ease by which a wartime industry can be created, the only physical victory condition is to make the "land" the enemy is on completely uninhabitable. Every battle ends with atomic hellfire, either because that is the only way to uproot the defenders, or because the defenders will blow themselves up before being extirpated. This has probably been true for some time with the EP tech base, so between smarter weapons, and their use in the past, the stigmas against WMD use on the battlefield are much smaller. EP wars probably end up weirdly similar to a 50s era cold war gone hot, as extremely powerful weapons dominate the battlefield on a tactical level, and strategic strikes can be stopped. You're correct that they shouldn't open with that kind of weapon, but it will definitely be used before long.

Thu, 2015-03-19 16:16

#6

Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
Excluding really unlikely regime changes on either side, the Jovian-Hyoden War will probably never happen. This makes any kind of conflict between them an inherently contrived and implausible scenario, which is where stuff like a nuclear exchange comes from.

If it was so unlikely then why on Earth did the writers set up the conflict in the first place? I get the whole "cold war intrigue" deal but then if there's no real threat beyond hyperbole then what's the point of even using it as a plot point?

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Fri, 2015-03-20 09:26

#7

Redroverone Redroverone's picture

People have something to gain from conflict, it's universal.

Imagine a third party who, say, wants to kill all transhumanity for following in the steps of the TITANs. The Jovians make an easy scapegoat for an extinction level event, likely involving the use of TITAN tech. Maybe the leaders of the Republic or the leaders of Hyoden make a miscalculation about just how far they can push their point. Maybe they want something to unify their factions around a central leadership, and a good one is always a small war with some enemy, especially one close by. Maybe someone enhances that chance by spreading false info that can't be easily dismissed or verified. Perhaps the hypercorps use the Republic as a bogeyman to try and scare Hyoden into a bad agreement. Cold wars provide lots of story seeds.

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Fri, 2015-03-20 12:14

#8

UnitOmega

One thing to consider is that

One thing to consider is that the Cold War is a thing that happened, and while Hyoden is not a superpower by any means, they do punch out of their weight class plenty, as most transhuman societies do. MAD and other factors managed to keep the USSR and the US from punching each other's tickets for several decades, the Republic's conflict with Hyoden has been going on less than one. Open Conflict would probably do little side a huge load of good (besides displaying metaphorical penis size) But like Redrover says, there are a lot of plot hooks one can use and build on in a heavily espionage-influenced game.

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Tue, 2015-03-24 09:02

#9

kowalzcky

I dont see open war, but a

I dont see open war, but a long cover ops and memetic campainfs conflict. On the other hand, I think most of the rulers of the JR will probably see all the Hyoden population as a lost cause, so they propably will not mind to kill them all. Said that, if you wanna go full-villian with the JR, the best move, in my opinion, is to infiltrate "Agent Provocateurs" that push Hyoden politics the more transhuman the better, then let them start a subtle campaing against the more conservative elements of the population to marginalize them and spread borderline ex-human propaganda as if the Hyoden rulers backed this, push harder on the anti-Jovian meme. Put your people in the research centers and make lobby for pushing the limists, all of this in the name of security against the JR. Then take advantage of your highrank infintrators and spread a exurgent infection among them and onto the general population, maybe through a nice new augmentation free for all the population. then you have your casus velli, and most of the sistem is not going to mind much if you nuke them from orbit and take care of the rest of the moon for "security reasons" as I said...Full-Villian mode

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Thu, 2015-03-26 01:00

#10

Wayfinder

In my campaign, Hyoden was

In my campaign, Hyoden was taken by the Jovians without a single shot fired. Subversion works, especially on a society receptive to it. But, if it came down to outright warfare, the Jovians are not stupid. They know they're in a precarious situation; they're the last bastion of Humanity. They're not going to up and strike without prevarication, and they're not going to do it in the open for all to see. Militaries plan on any kind of scenario, years in advance, conducting numerous simulations and studies, making plans upon plans, to undertake almost any kind of operation. It might begin with a siege. First, before hostilities broke out, there is a blackout. The Jovian Mesh has been nearly completely shut down, in favor of a new protocol (in my campaigns, it's completely impossible to penetrate anyway, not without a major intelligence operation). This disrupts all enemy intelligence right there. Radio jamming would intensify. Special electronic warfare spacecraft would completely disrupt all communications and farcasting into and out of Hyoden. They can even jam neutrino transmissions. Now this becomes a waiting game. If the Hyodens do not surrender, then it's bombs away. The bombs won't strike Hyoden directly, but they don't have to. Enough EMP and Neutron bombs will mess that place up in short order. Jovian Space Force would have complete space supremacy over the moon and take their time wiping out any defenses over the city. Prior to all this, Jovian commandos have done their work, sabotaging communications, power centers, and other vital targets. But, as I said, this is rather extreme, and unnecessary. Subversion works; it takes longer, but it works. In Hyoden's case, it's like sandblasting a soup-cracker.

Thu, 2015-03-26 01:28

#11

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

Uh...

Uh... If you can jam [i]neutrinos[/i], then that means you're not playing with Eclipse Phase levels of technology, you're playing with Schlock Mercenary levels of technology, because blocking neutrinos means either erecting a physical shield of neutronium, or a gravitic gradient so steep that they can't get past at all. If you have gravitic manipulation technology that powerful, and nobody else does, you win. You can just scrape Hyoden off the surface of the moon it's on, and nobody can touch you because even antimatter missiles can't get past your ability to just change the course they're on for them.

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Thu, 2015-03-26 09:29

#12

LatwPIAT

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:Uh...

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Uh... If you can jam [i]neutrinos[/i], then that means you're not playing with Eclipse Phase levels of technology, you're playing with Schlock Mercenary levels of technology, because blocking neutrinos means either erecting a physical shield of neutronium, or a gravitic gradient so steep that they can't get past at all.

Or you could just create enough neutrino noise to drown out the signal. Jamming is rarely done by blocking out the signal with physical walls.

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Thu, 2015-03-26 16:08

#13

Wayfinder

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:Uh...

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Uh... If you can jam [i]neutrinos[/i], then that means you're not playing with Eclipse Phase levels of technology, you're playing with Schlock Mercenary levels of technology, because blocking neutrinos means either erecting a physical shield of neutronium, or a gravitic gradient so steep that they can't get past at all. If you have gravitic manipulation technology that powerful, and nobody else does, you win. You can just scrape Hyoden off the surface of the moon it's on, and nobody can touch you because even antimatter missiles can't get past your ability to just change the course they're on for them.

All jamming is is the flooding of an area with intense radiations in order to confuse the signal. Sending out a bunch of neutrinos would do that. Easy. If you can transmit, it can be jammed. Any signal can, even lasers, although lasers would be the hardest to jam, but not block or reflect, or diffuse (Traveller uses sandcasters to diffuse laser weapons targeted at ships, which is a rather simply countermeasure for even us, today, to deploy in space).

Thu, 2015-03-26 17:38

#14

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

LatwPIAT wrote

LatwPIAT wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Uh... If you can jam [i]neutrinos[/i], then that means you're not playing with Eclipse Phase levels of technology, you're playing with Schlock Mercenary levels of technology, because blocking neutrinos means either erecting a physical shield of neutronium, or a gravitic gradient so steep that they can't get past at all.
Or you could just create enough neutrino noise to drown out the signal. Jamming is rarely done by blocking out the signal with physical walls.

That would mean you'd need enough neutrino comms to aim one at [b]everybody[/b] Hyoden might point a neutrino farcaster at for help, or even just for a paid comms relay. Everyone from the Solarians to the Ultimates. In the words of Sio Bibble, "A communications disruption can mean only one thing -- invasion." That, or that hyoden is being bombarded with a constant stream of antimatter. Basically, it's impossible from a practical point of view, because you can't fire omnidirectional neutrinos sufficiently enough to jam a neutrino farcaster. Lest you forget, the sun is bombarding the entire solar system with fuckloads more neutrinos than anyone can generate, and it doesn't appreciably jam a farcaster. You'd need to place your jamming devices 0 in this case, neutrino farcasters - on a direct line between the farcasters of Hyoden and everyone they want to jam, and you'd need an implausibly large number of them. And it's going to be [i]really[/i] fucking obvious what you're doing, so don't be surprised when the Titanian Navy shows up anyway.

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Thu, 2015-03-26 18:32

#15

Wayfinder

Neutrinos can also be easily

Neutrinos can also be easily intercepted. A blockade could easily do it. No farcasting for you, unless you want to be deleted. Why would the Titanian Navy want to help? What do they care? Besides, its far too risky to venture all the way out to Jupiter, and by the time they manage to come into the cyclotron it'll be over and done with. Especially when you get philosophical. Nobody will actually die, even if the entire habitat is obliterated. Besides, Titan would easily be subverted long before a conflict with them and the Republic could even begin. One thing about transhumans; they're just so open-minded. :)

Thu, 2015-03-26 18:48

#16

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

Wayfinder wrote:Neutrinos can

Wayfinder wrote:
Neutrinos can also be easily intercepted. A blockade could easily do it. No farcasting for you, unless you want to be deleted.

Do you understand how neutrinos work? They interact with so little matter that the mind boggles trying to comprehend how little matter they interact with. 30% of the radiation emitted by an antimatter explosion is emitted as neutrinos, which means that you discount 30% of the yield, as not going to be doing any destructive work for you. If you had a farcaster in [i]direct[/i] line of sight between someone's emitter and their intended receiver, you could try to tap their neutrino comms. Intercept them? Not likely. That's why it would take extraordinary - and [i]bloody obvious[/i] - effort to jam neutrino comms. It's not like jamming a radio farcaster, where any number of natural phenomena might be at work.

Quote:
Why would the Titanian Navy want to help Locus? What do they care? Besides, its far too risky to venture all the way out to the Main Belt, and by the time they manage to come into the fray it'll be over and done with. Especially when you get philosophical. Nobody will actually die, even if the entire habitat is obliterated. Besides, Titan would easily be subverted long before a conflict with them and the Consortium could even begin. One thing about transhumans; they're just so open-minded. :)

Yeaaah... And yet, they do care. Because you're talking about naked aggression against people who have offered no physical aggression back. Because Hyoden is largely Autonomist-leaning, and Autonomists need to stick together, especially in the face of naked aggression by other parties. The Jovians won't risk an all-out war with Titan, because that just guarantees a corporatacry future where everybody who's poor gets sleeved into a cheap lemon robot. (Though it's debatable whether or not that's preferable to a cancer body.)

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Thu, 2015-03-26 19:31

#17

Wayfinder

Quote:Do you understand how

Quote:
Do you understand how neutrinos work? They interact with so little matter that the mind boggles trying to comprehend how little matter they interact with. 30% of the radiation emitted by an antimatter explosion is emitted as neutrinos, which means that you discount 30% of the yield, as not going to be doing any destructive work for you. If you had a farcaster in direct line of sight between someone's emitter and their intended receiver, you could try to tap their neutrino comms. Intercept them? Not likely. That's why it would take extraordinary - and bloody obvious - effort to jam neutrino comms. It's not like jamming a radio farcaster, where any number of natural phenomena might be at work.

Obviously, you didn't read the book. Kindly turn to page 314 of the core book, to the section under Neutrino Communications. Also, pay attention to the fact that they broadcast in all directions.

Quote:
Yeaaah... And yet, they do care. Because you're talking about naked aggression against people who have offered no physical aggression back. Because Hyoden is largely Autonomist-leaning, and Autonomists need to stick together, especially in the face of naked aggression by other parties. The Jovians won't risk an all-out war with Titan, because that just guarantees a corporatacry future where everybody who's poor gets sleeved into a cheap lemon robot. (Though it's debatable whether or not that's preferable to a cancer body.)

There's naked aggression all over the place, and yet the Titans do little to nothing about it. Why would they? They're fat, dumb, and happy in their little neck of the woods; why would they care about some hapless people on a rock next to the Jovians? You seem to think that these people are philanthropists, kindly coming to the aid of whoever, because it fits within your own highly biased view of the game (yes, I've read that hilariously bigoted questionnaire of yours). But nations do not work like that. They operate, usually, in their vested self-interest, no matter what their politics may be. There is also the internal politics of the Titanians that would make such an action highly risky politically. Have you read the Rimward book? Did you count the political parties at play here? Shall I refer you to page number? And, who's to say that the Hyodens aren't aggressive? I'd say that they are very aggressive to a group of people struggling to maintain their humanity, seeing the Hyodens as a major threat to their habitats and their way of life, chock full of people with the same sentiments toward the people of the Jovian Republic as yourself. Don't give me this garbage that they're not aggressive. There's lots of forms of aggression; that's what Eclipse Phase is all about, buddy. But, they're easily destroyable, without it being necessary to fire a single shot, anyway.

Thu, 2015-03-26 20:00

#18

LatwPIAT

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:Do you

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Do you understand how neutrinos work? They interact with so little matter that the mind boggles trying to comprehend how little matter they interact with. 30% of the radiation emitted by an antimatter explosion is emitted as neutrinos, which means that you discount 30% of the yield, as not going to be doing any destructive work for you. If you had a farcaster in [i]direct[/i] line of sight between someone's emitter and their intended receiver, you could try to tap their neutrino comms. Intercept them? Not likely. That's why it would take extraordinary - and [i]bloody obvious[/i] - effort to jam neutrino comms. It's not like jamming a radio farcaster, where any number of natural phenomena might be at work.

Reading the original situation, it's never stated that the jamming has to be covert - just that it jams. It could just as well be a communications-embargo, in which jamming the neutrino coms would be detectable, but not interfere with the Republic's plans.

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Thu, 2015-03-26 20:23

#19

Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture

I don't think the Titanians

I don't think the Titanians would support Hyoden out of altruism or any silliness like that, but military intervention very well be possible depending on who started the war (or more importantly, which side other people believe started the war). I can see it now: the Commonwealth Fleet knows very well that sending their ships all the way to Jupiter is very risky and they know damn well that the Jovian Space Force is not to be fucked with. Cue the government still sending them over anyway and regularly bombarding Titanians with war footage, showing how the Jovians are mercilessly bombarding Hyoden. The popular opinion in Titan is that the Jovians are a bunch of backwards, cancer-ridden, paranoid xenophobes, ergo their military is laughably weak. Pity, not genuine concern, is what people feel. With their modern, sophisticated [i]trans[/i]human navy sent to help prop up Hyoden, victory will be theirs by space Christmas! We beat the Consortium, what will a bunch of [i]flats[/i] do to us?(cough WWI reference cough) Enthusiasm for the war runs high except for many in the Commonwealth fleet and Titanians who know way better just how dangerous the Jovians are. Who as it turns out are bringing out all their guns against Hyoden (and thus causing massive casualties) not because they're evil space fascists and hate transhumans but out of a chilling report that a TITAN nanovirus had integrated itself in Hyoden and threatens to spread to Jovian space. And [i]then[/i], as the player characters will soon find out, that report was fed to Jovian spies by government officials in Hyoden itself, who wanted to instigate a war for reasons unknown. And [b][i]then[/b][/i], it turns out these officials are Ozma/actually exsurgents...and that's when the Commonwealth fleet shows up, perhaps about to meet its doom, perhaps not. Aw man I'm totally stealing this idea from myself for a game idea now.

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Thu, 2015-03-26 21:21

#20

Wayfinder

When I read about the

When I read about the Titanians, I really don't see any reason either for their government or their people to support military action against the Jovians, especially if it seems they're going alone. The sheer cost and time it takes to even mobilize a navy would make such intervention pointless if the goal is to save Hyoden. By the time it would take to assemble a task force, Hyoden is gone or captured, and then what? If Hyoden is gone, what, the Titanians are going to "get revenge?" It would be one thing if Titan had something to lose over the loss of Hyoden as an independent community, but they don't. Quite the opposite. They'd have more to gain if the Jovians took it over, especially if they did it peaceably. Heck, there's more to gain if the Titans actually help the Jovians! They could cut a major trade deal with them, maybe a reduction in the slingshot toll?

Thu, 2015-03-26 21:57

#21

branford

I think one of the major

I think one of the major issues concerning possible Titanian assistance to Hyoden is that the Commonwealth would need to enter Jovian space. The political impact of such an act is not to be underestimated. Such a move would be unlike their prior support for the Anarchists in the Battle of Locus which involved actual members of the Autonomous Alliance defending their territory against aggression from forces from the far-off PC. In that matter, the Titanians incurred little risk to their own territory or people. However, entering the clear Jovian sphere of influence to engage Jovian forces in support of a polity that was not a member of the AA would undoubtedly be considered by the Jovians to be a casus belli that would require direct and overwhelming retaliation. The Titanians are not stupid. They apparently are aware of how dangerous the Jovians could be, including the training of their forces and size and lethality of their space fleet, no less in defense of their own territory. In addition to risking an all out war with the Jovians which could prove catastrophic for both sides, although logistical concerns would initially favor the Jovian home forces against Commonwealth assistance, it would provide an easy opportunity for other major powers like the PC to attack other AA polities like Locus while Titanian forces are otherwise engaged, or worse, encouraging an alliance between the PC and Jovians, which could have serious detrimental long-term negative effects for the entire AA. In the event of actual, naked and brutal aggression by the Jovians against Hydon, I would expect the Titanians to complain bitterly, recall their Jovian ambassador, offer humanitarian assistance, and possibly offer to act as a mediator. Behind the scenes, I would expect the upper levels of Commonwealth to pray the Hyoden action slakes any Jovian bloodlust for the foreseeable future while they desperately fortify their defenses to act as a deterrent to further Jovian expansion.

Thu, 2015-03-26 22:12

#22

Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture

Maybe right around the time

Maybe right around the time this theoretical TITAN nanovirus report hit desks in the JR, Hyden so happened to be in the midst of negotiations for becoming part of the Autonomist Alliance (that Titan so happens to be in), which would make that nanovirus report the straw that broke the camel's back in tensions. Because Titan views the Jovians as minor irritants, and to show the rest of the AA that they mean business in upholding the points of unity (and maybe to sent a message to the rest of the AA that "hey [i]we're[/i] the only ones who have been able to effectively help people against imperialist aggression. Remember Locus? Maybe we oughta make the AA more of a formal organization you silly anarchists") they send a fleet out to help Hyoden, where they expect to make short work of the Jovians and celebrate Hyoden's official entrance into the AA. so basically, for the commonwealth a military intervention would: -send a message to both the inner system powers and the AA that they're more than capable of handling their stuff. If the Second Battle of Locus didn't prove that, then their inevitable triumph over the Jovians will -Plop an ally right smack in the middle of Jovian space in the form of Hyoden, while Jovian influence is curtailed. Maybe leads to the liberation of Gerdr or other habitats that exist as a Jovian protectorate That of course assumes the Titan fleet isn't annihilated (or at least forced to retreat) in Jovian space.

branford wrote:
post

I see that as a scenario that would be equally interesting to explore, I think, in the context of a campaign, particularly a Firewall one. Although according to Rimward the Titanians don't see the Jovians as much of a threat at all, at least it's implied that Titan's government and/or many of its people see it that way. I'm sure the Fleet is quite aware of the danger they pose though.

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Thu, 2015-03-26 22:40

#23

Wayfinder

Noble Pigeon wrote:Maybe

Noble Pigeon wrote:
Maybe right around the time this theoretical TITAN nanovirus report hit desks in the JR, Hyden so happened to be in the midst of negotiations for becoming part of the Autonomist Alliance (that Titan so happens to be in), which would make that nanovirus report the straw that broke the camel's back in tensions. Because Titan views the Jovians as minor irritants, and to show the rest of the AA that they mean business in upholding the points of unity (and maybe to sent a message to the rest of the AA that "hey [i]we're[/i] the only ones who have been able to effectively help people against imperialist aggression. Remember Locus? Maybe we oughta make the AA more of a formal organization you silly anarchists") they send a fleet out to help Hyoden, where they expect to make short work of the Jovians and celebrate Hyoden's official entrance into the AA. so basically, for the commonwealth a military intervention would: -send a message to both the inner system powers and the AA that they're more than capable of handling their stuff. If the Second Battle of Locus didn't prove that, then their inevitable triumph over the Jovians will -Plop an ally right smack in the middle of Jovian space in the form of Hyoden, while Jovian influence is curtailed. Maybe leads to the liberation of Gerdr or other habitats that exist as a Jovian protectorate That of course assumes the Titan fleet isn't annihilated (or at least forced to retreat) in Jovian space.
branford wrote:
post
I see that as a scenario that would be equally interesting to explore, I think, in the context of a campaign, particularly a Firewall one. Although according to Rimward the Titanians don't see the Jovians as much of a threat at all, at least it's implied that Titan's government and/or many of its people see it that way. I'm sure the Fleet is quite aware of the danger they pose though.

What would it take for the AA to admit a new member? Further, does the AA require military support from everyone within its organization? Mutual defense pacts can be very touchy subjects, especially to nations that probably enjoy their autonomy more than they enjoy their alliance. Alliance doesn't mean Friend. Look at how the US treats Israel lately? Getting NATO to do anything militarily is always like pulling teeth. If the Titanians have anything to say about Hyoden entering into the AA, expect a huge debate in their populace and their government. Going to war to defend someone where there are no clear military or financial gains are always problematic, especially if the population isn't morally up to it. Such things take time. And be certain that the Jovians wouldn't sit by and let that happen if they could help it either. Maybe, as Branford wrote, that the Jovians, in response, join the PC? I have a few issues with that, but it's possible. In my Jovian campaign, the situation is markedly different than all-out conflict with the transhumans. They employ their agents to subvert other foreign habitats around them and then, at the same time, the Security Council makes lots of conciliatory gestures, notably reducing the Slingshot Toll to various people on a case-by-case basis, allowing more exploration of Europa, and even allowing some dissidents to leave the Republic permanently. All the while, they enjoy better and better relations with other nations, like Mars and Titan itself. Jovian agents even participate in Firewall operations for the protection of the species, though it's kind of hard, given that most of the PCs can't resleeve and wouldn't want to if they were offered the choice. Hyoden is now a Jovian protectorate, all without firing a single shot.

Thu, 2015-03-26 23:03

#24

Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture

Wayfinder wrote:

Wayfinder wrote:
What would it take for the AA to admit a new member? Further, does the AA require military support from everyone within its organization? Mutual defense pacts can be very touchy subjects, especially to nations that probably enjoy their autonomy more than they enjoy their alliance.

I'd say that because the AA is just so...loose with everything except for its Four Points of Unity, I do agree that there would be lots of discussion and debate about how to even admit a new member. These negotiations would have been going on for years, almost immediately after the Battle of Locus I'd think. I'm still trying to flesh out this idea so I gotta do some thinking about it for a while, but I do very much like the idea of a war going hot, the Titanians being militarily involved, and the PCs thrown right in the middle of a conspiracy while the missiles are flying. How and why are the big things I oughta tackle, I think, which might involve butchering the canon, something I have absolutely no qualms doing.

—

"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address

Thu, 2015-03-26 23:57

#25

branford

@Wayfinder: I cannot imagine

@Wayfinder: I cannot imagine any scenario where the Jovians would actually join the PC. However, a convenient military alliance against a common enemy represented by the Commonwealth would certainly be a possibility, particularly since the Jovians and the PC have much more in common culturally and economically that either polity does with the Commonwealth. The great distance between them also renders territorial conflicts less of a concern. I would note that a combined war by the PC and Jovians against the AA is the stuff of Firewall nightmares. Openly admitting a new member to the AA, a military alliance, within the Jovian sphere of influence, such as Hyoden, would be a significant provocation with unforeseen and potentially deadly results. By way of example, think about the Cuban Missile Crisis between the USA and USSR, or how Russia is now acting towards some eastern European countries, including some who've recently joined the NATO Alliance, no less countries like Ukraine. In fact, if open hostilities has not yet begun with Hyoden, negotiations to join the AA could easily serve as a trigger. In any event, in any conflict between the Jovians and any socialist or anarchist polity within the EP universe, the Jovians must lose. The socialists and anarchists have plot armor as the preferred ideologies of the game authors. As indicated in the books, the Jovians are intended as space Space Nazis, and we all how what happens to Space Nazis . . . :)

Fri, 2015-03-27 04:43

#26

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

I think you guys are

I think you guys are misunderstanding the Autonomist Alliance. It isn't something like NATO, where you apply to join. You want to be part of the AA? You declare adhesion to the Points of Unity. That's it, you're in. Whether or not the other members will lift a finger to help you pretty much depends on whether you pay the Points of Unity lip service, or whether you really do hold to them. (Autonomist support for Extropia, for example, would be questionable at best. Support for a true anarchist holdfast like Locus? Not so questionable, the only question is "how much" and "how long will it take to get there." Also, the Autonomist Alliance isn't governed by realpolitik. It's governed by the will of its members, and that's something the Jovians and Consortium need to take into account. It's not like the way Putin can just overtly have a war with the Ukraine, safe in the knowledge that NATO isn't going to militarily intervene. Imagine if you polled everybody in every NATO member country, showed them what was going on in the Ukraine (especially the pro-russian guys bringing down that jet-liner,) and asked if they wanted to go to war to kick the Russians the hell out. No politicians get a say, they can only talk, and cast their one-person, one vote, but at the end of the day, it's an up-down, one-person, one-vote decision on "do we go to war to kick Russian behind until it's back up above its border." There's a good chance we'd be embroiled in WWIII right now if that were the case. That [b]is[/b] the case with the Autonomist Alliance. If you do something big enough and aggressive enough to some kind of anarchist holdfast, there's a very good chance there will be a huge fleet heading your way, regardless of the fact that it's politically suicidal. They may very well even know that they can't get there in time to stop you, and their mission may be purely punitive, to inflict as much damage on your military and industrial infrastructure as possible! And nobody wants that, because no matter which two of the big three go to war, a proper, full, knock-down, drag-out war with each other, the third side wins. If the Jovians and the Alliance have a throw-down, the Consortium sweeps up whatever's left and installs the corporate lash on the survivors. If the Consortium and the Jovians throw-down, the Autonomists will move in and clean house, and if the Consortium and the Alliance have the big throw-down, the Junta will move in and expand their military dictatorship to everybody.

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Fri, 2015-03-27 10:22

#27

branford

@ShadowDragon8685: I would

@ShadowDragon8685: I would dispute your claims that the Commonwealth is not governed, at least in part, on some level of realpolitik. They are a large, statist polity with a professional military and experienced foreign policy and diplomatic corps, that is both responsive to its people, but also persuasive concerning larger policies. The Commonwealth is organized to be far more deliberative concerning actions with life or death consequences like engaging in a conflict with a major power outside their sphere of influence with uncertain and likely deadly results. The Commonwealth is the only only member of the AA with a large, organized military force that could realistically project power outside their sphere of influence other than limited guerrilla type actions. If the AA were to be compared to NATO (a comparison I assume they would find insulting :P ), the Commonwealth would constitute the combines forces of the USA, Britain and France, while the Anarchists would be akin to the Scandinavian countries. No large scale, offensive, foreign could be conducted without the active involvement of the Commonwealth. Accordingly, as I opined earlier, I would nevertheless expect the Commonwealth to actively offer aid and "solidarity" with Hyoden in the event of a hot conflict with the Jovians. However, such aid would likely be humanitarian and diplomatic, with a stern warning that Commonwealth forces will act to protect Commonwealth and major AA territory if the Jovian's expansionist inclinations extended to Saturn and beyond. I assume they would also readily admit Hyoden refugees. Additionally, the anarchist groups are not all stupid. They, like anyone else, are able to assess that their actions will result in brutal retaliatory measures and political repercussions. Besides bringing the Jovian fleet to their homes, forcing the Commonwealth, as a member of the AA, to engage in an all out war against the Jovians, where Commonwealth citizens would be harshly impacted in their own territory, because of unilateral Anarchist action in solidarity with Hyoden, is also quite likely a quick way to turn the opinions of the citizens of of the Commonwealth against the Anarchists and AA. It's one thing to support allies and ideological brethren in the abstract or with peaceful means, and quite another to do so knowing that it will result in your habitat being bombed by the largest space fleet in the system, possible irreparable damage to your life and culture, and your society weakened before other equally unforgiving and powerful enemies with a grudge, such as the PC.

Mon, 2015-03-30 16:18

#28

templariomaster templariomaster's picture

Well in my games I took the

Well in my games I took the idea from NPC file prime that all assault jovian soldiers have combat exosqueletons to make them equal hand to hand to a common transhuman, so from the start we're talking about soldiers that can use rifles of 20mm without having weight impairment, on the other hand it means that they will have to go throught war in a very quick way avoiding an economic war that they will definely loose. In fact every soldier they loose its a big problem, not because their have to wait 18 years to replenish their files, the transhumans also have to wait for newborns to get into transhumanity. Its because all the jovian units are constantly training and have constructed a certain moral mindset during such training that war would be like another training exercise, but the new ones that join the army won't learn in time. I also give Jovians a space advantage, their ship are the only ones that can resist damage using a secretive technology, not too much maybe an impact or two but the problem in space combat is hitting your target, if that target can resist an impact from your weapons means that you have to double your efforts to kill it. In that way the jovian navy is even stronger, in that way I promote guerrilla warfare over more convetional methods, and the longer the war the more jovian ships will look ruined making it more aesthetically appealling. Combat in hyoden would be made throught extermination and conquest, the local population will always reject them so the tactics would be oriented in that way even when that only would increase the reasons to fight them, when the army is so strong as the jovian army is, it wouldn't really matter. Once they clean everything, even tech that could hold hyodinites egos they can move colonist inside that fully support the jovian republic. About how the first assault would be made, well I understand that they first need to hold areas, orbital deployment becomes stupid when the enemy is waiting for you and they can see your forces coming, first they would need to secure a certain point in the planet. Politically it could be made in a maquiavelesque way, promoting inner hyodinite factions that oppose the goverment and would do the dirty job for you of securing small zones in the same way the Earth has countries. Militarily, it would be the same, but instead infiltrating forces inside that would coordinate with a total assault later so the attack could be done from the outside and the inside. In that way when the moment comes, they can attack specific defense points by surprise and sabotage them in a way that the enemy cant repair them in time for when the full attack comes, forcing them to change their defense plan in a way you actually desire, need or are specially equiped for that. Once you have a head, hyoden forces would try to wage a defensive war claiming for allies to come, half the solar system could come in their help if jovians don't have anything prepared diplomatically or politically to justify the attack or at least something that would keep everyone out of this. The argument of Hitler(I only want austria, I only want Checoslovaquia, I only want Poland, I only want this small french territory worked)(Or putting firewall by their side by presenting proofs of general exurgent infection in hyoden could be a breakpoint to influence everybody). Once they're alone with hyoden(because we have actually discarded any allies, maybe the PC?) they will have to be decisive, most of hyodinite forces would be underground to avoid their destruction from orbit while they still try to gain their defensive war reuniting proof that the jovian republic is torturing and exterminating hyodinite people to push allies in, but I don't really think they have much time, as I said eariler the Jovian republic can't take long wars so they would be decisive and fast putting a lot of effort into their conquest. The thing is, what after hyoden? Everybody would hate the Jovians even more wether the Jovians had good diplomatic moves or not, so the next step the Jovians take should be oriented into a final assault or desestabilize the solar system, but I don't really think they could actually repeat hyoden two times.