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Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your children?

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Skimble Skimble's picture
Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your children?
Snigger if you will, but my group has been doing some thinking about reproduction in the Eclipse Phase universe. While some consider the Solar System to be overcrowded with infugees awaiting sleeves and consider the creation of new egos the 'old fashioned way' as irresponsible, the human urge to create progeny is a strong one. I believe there must therefore be infants and kids in the Eclipse Phase universe, not including neotenic morphs. Which leads us to the question of the mechanics of reproduction when people occupy expensive bodies that were designed and copyrighted (or patented) by hypercorporations, and which also often have built-in obsolescence. Then there's the idea of pure ego reproduction. Finally, what is it like to grow up in the Eclipse Phase universe? Physical Reproduction Between two Flat morphs or two Splicers reproduction is simple enough. I presume that the gene therapies used to turn a Flat into a Splicer are in the public domain by now, so it's reasonable to assume that Splicers breed true. It also seems like a logical step to make the modified genes that confer bonuses on a Splicer dominant, meaning that the product of a Splicer and a Flat is, in fact, a Splicer. Things get a bit trickier when you consider reproduction involving any other biomorph types, however. Given the range of genetic control exercised by morph designers it could vary by specific model, but there are three possible outcomes: 1) No Offpsring The morph is infertile. This could be a result of a deliberate choice on the part of the morph designers, or it could be a consequence of trying to breed, say, a Ghost Morph with a Ruster. 2) Offspring are Splicers This is one of the options I consider to be most likely. The morph designers have designed the genome of their product(s) such that all of the unique traits that make it what it is are recessive, meaning that they do not breed true. The offpsring of any union between two morphs where this option is chosen are therefore Splicers. Making the morph traits recessive however would lead to the possibility of gene therapy to 'turn on' the traits later, a possible copyright violation. Perhaps it's even more likely therefore that the morph creators utilise non-germline genetic techniques to create their morphs, meaning that none of the unique DNA is transmitted sexually. 3) Offspring Breed True I consider this to be the least likely option for most morph designers. First and foremost it would allow two people inhabiting the same morph type to reproduce without having to pay an expensive fee to buy the resulting morph. This might be considered a good thing where frequent purchases of maintenance packs are required, however, so the situation isn't as clear cut as it initially appears. If two Rusters breed together it's true that the company making Rusters hasn't been paid for the new morph, but on the other hand they didn't have to pay to build it, and it's an additional consumer of maintenance packs. Perhaps companies do require a fee to be paid in order for a 'reproduction license' to be purchased before a couple can reproduce with their morphs. I can't see that being a popular move, however, and in most circumstances it's rather difficult to enforce. If morphs breed true, we have to wonder about chimerae. Imagine a cross between a Ruster and an Olympian; what does it look like? That would depend on the dominance and location of the various genes involved in the respective phenotypes of this morph. The potential for strange deformities and new and horrible genetic diseases and the copyright nightmare that would result make it seem to me that, in most cases, morph designers would choose to make their morphs infertile except with their own kind. Ego Reproduction Can egos reproduce? It's easy enough to imagine that a 'blank' ego template could be created in a state of high plasticity that resembles a human infant's brain state. The question then is one of nature or nurture. Would the two egos need to subtly manipulate the infant brain such that it is predisposed to certain forms of behaviour that are a blend of its parents' traits? Or is it enough for the egos to raise the baby as its parents for it to become their child? I suspect as always that the answer will be a mix of the two. As a matter of practicality, I can imagine that parents might well wish to choose a hybrid ego/physical reproduction method, with a few possible ways they could do it. The first is a little bit disturbing, but in a setting like Eclipse Phase it seems eminently viable. They reproduce, and the baby is carried to term either inside the mother or in an exowomb. At birth the baby is uploaded via an ego bridge and run as an infomorph in a simulspace. What happens to its meat body is irrelevant from that point; perhaps it gets blanked and sold for anyone who wants to experience real infantilism? Or perhaps it would be useful for parents who wish to undertake pure ego reproduction but want to raise the child 'normally'? Anyway, once the baby is in simulspace, the parents can either fork or dedicate their originals' time to raising the child inside that simulspace. Using accelerated time, the baby could be grown to 16 'mental' years old in 97 days - just over 3 months! Of course, they could stop at any time and have their child decanted into a morph. Presumably there's a market for child morphs for real children that age and grow normally, otherwise they could use a neotenic morph for a while and then change to an 'adult' morph when ready. The same would work for a child of the mind - an ego that's the product of two egos as mentioned in the first paragraph under this entry. An interesting question of semantics, though. If a child is designed from a blank template and then developed in simulspace, does that make the child an infolife AGI? If they go the route of growing a real physical baby and then uploading it to develop in a simulspace is *that* an AGI? I suspect the answers to these questions will vary immensely from polity to polity and corp to corp. I daresay there are open source morphs out there that support and encourage chimerical mixing and matching of traits to make new and unique morphs. I'm curious if any of the designers or the rest of you have a take on any of this, or can see options for reproduction that I've missed. Be fruitful and multiply!
azrael azrael's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
As one of the players of this game that is regularly discussing the issue of reproduction, I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of other players and the developers. Just to add to what Skimble has written, even if morphs were produced and sold as sterile, I can easily imagine a market for germ cell implants and all other equipment required for successful reproduction. I could imagine even that if two people with Ghost morphs wanted to breed a Ghost child, they could purchase a Ghost-ovum/sperm combo which would mature into a Ghost morph. There'd be no loss of income for the Ghost copyright holder - as they could charge similar fees for a matured Ghost morph as they do for a Ghost breeding pack. To be honest, I can't see much benefit in anyone caring specifically about breeding a specific morph type, so reproduction resulting in a generic 'body' makes sense. You can also decant your child into a suitable morph at a later date. I could see however that a Generic baby morph/body being designed as the output of the reproductive process. Imagine if you could 'design' the ideal baby, what would it be like? Let's forget the whole concept of what you want your baby to grow up like, as that is irrelevant when the child can switch morphs. You don't design 'tall' into your baby, just give them a tall morph when they are growing up. A baby would obviously have to have a built in immune system, special baby medichines. Parents may be concerned about keeping their baby well fed, at the correct temperature, etc. So imagine built-in sensors constantly broadcasting to the parents all sorts of status information on their child. And when the baby cries ... as a parent I'd clearly want an off-switch ... perhaps remotely trigger something that drops the baby into a simulspace and lets them cry their hearts out there instead of in reality ;) What would you build in to your baby to make things easier?
Skimble Skimble's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
"MotherCare Industries presents: Child-Net. Using cutting edge research into tac-net software, MotherCare Industries has developed a unique solution to the problem of keeping track of your child or children. The Child-Net app tracks core temperature, medichine activity, location, mental wellbeing, blood chemistry, respiration, heart rate and 512 other unique items of data about your child so that you can stop worrying." I can imagine having a kid fitted with a GhostRider module in which a fork of a parent is installed, allowing him to never be without his mom or dad. I suppose it might be a moot point given changing attitudes and the lack of privacy in general in the setting, but can you imagine having your first sexual encounter with mom or dad watching silently from the GhostRider module? AI plush toys almost certainly exist, allowing some of the more menial tasks of looking after baby to be delegated to machines. Teddies made of smart material, perhaps, to keep them clean. The only problem I can see with selling 'breeding packs' containing morph germ cells would be the ease with which these could be knocked off and then sold on the black market. Charles Stross's Accelerando portrays childhood to be filled with violence and fighting, as kids can be restored from backup and have their memories edited to dull the more traumatic experiences. Why stop kids from knife fighting if they can be restored in the event that they die? Which brings us to psychosurgery. As Azrael says, it's easy to give your child a specific morph whenever you want, but what about editing their mind? As a parent in the EP universe, wouldn't you be tempted to reinforce good behaviours and positive personality traits? I find that far creepier than the idea of engineering perfect baby bodies, but really the same principles are at play. If the child's life will be better for the psychosurgery, is it wrong to do it? But then, why not apply the same to adults? If all adults would be happier without negative behaviours, why not enforce mandatory psychosurgery to delete bad traits and instill good ones? Sounds like a good chance for a Stepford Wives plot, to me... What about child reputation? I like to imagine a Parent-Net (P-net?) where kids who are well behaved and who do chores can get favours from not just their own parent, but anyone's (with a successful Networking test), as a sort of distributed pocket money/allowance system. Likewise I presume there are Kid-Nets (K-Net?) where children can measure each other's reputations and get favours from one another. That could be quite a fun adventure seed, actually... Though one might assume that kids give each other rep for different things than adults, and there might be an element of 'popularity contest'. None of which is to say that kids shouldn't also be able to gain rep for the larger networks as a whole. Performing small routine maintenance tasks is as worthy of rep to a kid as to an adult.
azrael azrael's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
Bob-a-job week where your kids can earn rep on P-net!
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
Gregory Stock described in his book "Redesigning Humans" a neat way of making enhanced people able to interbreed (originally due to Mario Capecchi, I think). Basically, you put most of the enhancements on one or more extra artificial chromosomes. Splicers have just the normal genome in the other chromosmes, with bad alleles replaced with good ones; this scheme is for the more advanced morphs. You also add genes encoding a cre-lox recombination that gets expressed in the sex-cells to these chromosomes. There it produces an enzyme that snips apart DNA at a certain sequence near the centromere, making the sex cells remove their artificial chromosomes. Now they just encode vanilla splicers, and if mating happens the child will be a splicer. I can imagine that while this scheme is popular, some morphs are deliberately incompatible. If you use an artificial genetic code that is non-standard, normal viruses cannot harm you. As for having mind children, I am somewhat uncertain how good the neuroscience of EP is in simulating brain maturation. The mess with the Lost suggests it exists but not perfect, and I would hence suspect most parents would stay away. Then there are AGIs growing up. The first chapter of Greg Egan's "Diaspora" describes the process in wonderful detail: http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/DIASPORA/01/Orphanogenesis.html
Extropian
Skimble Skimble's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
You're right about the Lost, I'd forgotten that they were force-grown in VR. Still, that failure was due (we know OOCly) to the Watts MacLeood Virus rather than due to their lack of socialisation. Mind you people in the setting don't know that, so I think you're right that development of children in crunched time is probably taboo given the example of The Lost. Looks like most kids get to grow up 'normally', then! I'd like to know a bit more about how AGIs are 'born', too. I know it's said that they're socialised and developed like normal humans, but we don't have much information on AGI lifecycles.
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
I would not put the blame for failure of the Futura project solely on the Watts-McLeod virus. Transhumanities knowledge of neuroscience in Eclipse Phase is quite broad, but it is not really all that deep yet. It is still a fairly immature science, evident by the plethora of possible problems that arise whenever someone wants to fiddle with their own brain state. The researchers who began the project might not have even had the requisite technology to run the experiment at the time dilation used, they had to resort to pillaged tech from recaptured TITAN facilities (Which was probably the entry vector for the virus). They were breaking unstable ground with the experiment, mistakes were bound to happen. Other failures of the project are also evident in the game mechanics. Lost characters suffer from an extra disorder that they obtain solely because they are from the Futura project, not because of their Psi abilities. Something about the project caused enough stress on the emergent egos of the Lost that it broke some, and killed many. While I am sure the Watts-McLeod helped, I am unsure it's the sole cause.
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
CodeBreaker wrote:
I would not put the blame for failure of the Futura project solely on the Watts-McLeod virus. Transhumanities knowledge of neuroscience in Eclipse Phase is quite broad, but it is not really all that deep yet. It is still a fairly immature science, evident by the plethora of possible problems that arise whenever someone wants to fiddle with their own brain state. The researchers who began the project might not have even had the requisite technology to run the experiment at the time dilation used, they had to resort to pillaged tech from recaptured TITAN facilities (Which was probably the entry vector for the virus). They were breaking unstable ground with the experiment, mistakes were bound to happen. Other failures of the project are also evident in the game mechanics. Lost characters suffer from an extra disorder that they obtain solely because they are from the Futura project, not because of their Psi abilities. Something about the project caused enough stress on the emergent egos of the Lost that it broke some, and killed many. While I am sure the Watts-McLeod helped, I am unsure it's the sole cause.
I think that the extra trauma might be largely a byproduct of having so many asyncs in relative vicinity at the same time. Some have argued that insanity may be memetically contagious (in that being around the insane tests your sanity such that you yourself may go insane)... and having so many people with so many mental disorders in such close proximity may have exacerbated the mental issues they already had. I should also like it noted that the acceleration rate of the Futura project is nowhere near the current maximums as presented in the book. Time acceleration was only necessary to ensure that the Futura egos would mature at the same rate as their body... so a time acceleration rate less than x10 was necessary for the task at hand. I don't believe this was a factor. The method used to mass teach an army of children may have been a factor, however.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
x60 is what we are capable of now. The Futura project started 7 years ago. If time dilation technology is indeed based of TITAN technology and concepts it isn't to much of a reach to believe that since then trans-humanities best and brightest have been working on that technology to get it closer to the kind of things that the TITANs are capable of. But I agree, there is a good chance that the actual methods used might have been flawed. The book says that the number of actual employees dedicated to the project was around 2500 or so, plus some AI to help along. It says nothing about parents, familial connections or any other form of community other than that created (at an extremely rapid pace) by the Lost themselves. While I am far from an expert in the topic of child development, I do believe that in such an environment (one lacking clear parental icons, loving care, etc.) is a breeding grounds antisocial behavior. And in an environment which is basically a playground (I am not sure, but can Egos die in Simulspace? The Lost description says that a large percentage had commited premeditated murder by the age of 13, so I imagine they can), when one Lost acts out, the others are just going to take it as a challenge to see what they can do. Whee, Death Spiral!
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nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
Physical breeding ... Splicers will not necessarily breed true. In fact, I'd be surprised if they did. It would take a good deal of extra work to work around a disease caused by a dominant gene somewhere. It's easier just to fix it when you're making the new morph. Assuming you actually wanted to make a baby the old fashioned away, rather than using something similar to Gattaca (zygote selection) or something even more invasive, I'm sure you could design a device which would correct genetic issues at that point of conception. Specialty morphs almost certainly will not breed true. Firstly, they are designed for specific features. It would be a lot of work to make a ghost and ensure that ghost can produce offspring, so you should expect the price for that to go up significantly. Simply said, when there is no pressure to ensure ongoing reproduction, it's less likely that feature will still be maintained. This is even more true when mixing wildly different morphs, such as a ghost and a ruster. What's worse is when you do get a viable infant, but the mixing of wildly different genomes has resulted in genetic anomalies and completely novel and untreatable diseases. Thanks, dad. Secondly, equally important to the genetic make-up of the embryo is the environment the embryo is raised in. The human womb maintains a particular temperature and shape, and introduces a particular cocktail of oxygen, food, hormones and other chemicals, which shifts at different stages of development. It is quite likely the developers of a specialty morph have taken advantage of this tool to encourage the growth of particular traits. The introduction of hormone X at week 10 creates a thicker skin necessary for vac-sealing, for instance. If you don't have this recipe, again, you won't get the desired features, and you may cause novel and untreatable diseases. The recipe for one morph type is likely different from the recipe for another morph type. Thirdly, these morphs are not designed to maintain a human consciousness during growth. A ghost is specifically programmed to avoid neural programming, so there are no ethical concerns about putting a new mind into it. It grows at a specific, accelerated rate, so it can go to market faster. If you tried to grow your own child using a ghost morph, it would probably come out a vegetable. So don't do it, okay? To create a child between two morphs (of any sort), there are a few things we'd require: 1) A genome. I'm sure these sex cells can be installed, optionally as part of a sex change/modification operation. Even a synthmorph can support these. We can design them to only produce a single DNA set, so all sperm and eggs are identical. You may use the genome that comes with your morph, if you have one, or your original, natural genome, if you still have a copy (or have recreated it from other sources). 2) A map. Your genome and gestational information must be thoroughly documented, so it can be run through computer simulations to determine compatibility and so on. 3) Modifications. A professional will need to update your and your partner(s) genetic information to eliminate any incompatibilities, and design your gestational plan. This step may be taken before or after conception, but it's cheaper if done before. 4) Conception. Do it the old fashioned way, or in a lab. In a lab is cheaper. 5) Gestation. If done actually in someone's body (brute!) you'll need to constantly monitor and alter chemical levels to provide the proper environment. The womb may need to be a dedicated implant, since it's unlikely specialty morphs would let that sort of space go to waste on an organ you're not supposed to ever use. An exowomb is cheaper and safer. The zygote can be extracted following a natural conception and planted in the exowomb, if so desired. Regarding Egos... Raising a child solely in simulspace is a question for child psychologists. My inclination is to say it would both be unfashionable, and of questionable safety. Maybe something for the anarchists to try, but not for any self-respecting socialite. You dump your kids on someone else, just like every other self-respecting parent. As a parent, I can say that time acceleration is a terrible idea, and not one most parents are likely to pursue. You raised a child for a reason, and it's to have a child. However, kids are real attention hogs. So I imagine most parents would have their kids 'on' for maybe 8 hours a day, and in hibernation for the rest, so parents can still pursue adult activities. That's what I'd do, anyway. Kids are probably still considered kids until around 30, by their personal clocks. I would agree with your concepts of template egos, imprinted with desired traits and inclinations prior to being uploaded to a factory infantile morph. Alternatively, people can fork themselves, shave those forks down to basically betas, combine them, and use that, for an actual 'child'. As for the question of hypercorp copyright - most likely they do. I mean come on, what would the RIAA do if the US government were replaced with an economic union? They'd probably sue you for donating blood, if they could. I wonder how many parents decide to move off-world for a while to raise kids.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
I like this overview. The short of it: breeding is no longer anything that "just happens" - it is a technological, medical and legal process where people have a lot of deliberate choices. Expect the Jovians to make a big deal of how it has become unnatural elsewhere (although the majority of their citizens are born after at least IVF and often exowombs). I think making splicers breed true is doable. Just giving people healthy genomes one way or another will weed out bad dominant genes and malfunctioning genes. A kid would have a mix of the parent's good alleles, and the only errors would be due to 1) individual mutations (rather rare, around 150 in the whole genome per person) and 2) if parents are heterozygous for some allele that is bad when you have two copies (like some of the possibly intelligence-enhancing alleles that give you illnesses when you have two copies of the allele). It is likely that splicers have built-in contraception that needs to be turned off. I agree that speciality morphs do not breed true. They have not just designer genomes but designer development. They are not just grown, but elements are likely micro-built (nanomachines present in the tissues direct growth in certain ways, add various non-biological features). An interesting thing is that a morph could (as an add-on) have whatever sex cells the owner wanted. So if you want to have kids the traditional way with compatible partners, you could order a morph with any genome. This might even allow trans-species mating if you are into that. Another interesting enhancement: a built in biotech hive that can manufacture sex cells with a desired genome "on the fly". Sample a genome and you can now produce offspring genetically descended from that genome (with a partner who is compatible). Maybe you could even download enhancements and updates into the genome as it is being compiled and put into the gametes. While most people likely go for a more technical approach to having children, maybe some like to temporarily sleeve in Carnival of the Goat studpods and literally make their children through an act of love... Copyrighting genomes is tricky. Copyrighting and patenting development processes not found in nature is however much easier. However, it is likely hard for any legal system descended from the current western one's to reach the conclusion that somebody doesn't have the right to their own body because it is a copyright infringement *as long as the person is tied to the body*. With resleeving, this goes out of the window. Repossessing bodies is ethically OK since it doesn't stop the lifepath of the ego, even if it now has to make do with being an infomorph. There is still a difference between being held responsible for what parents/designers have done and what you have done, though - if you have a knock-off body it is unlikely that you could easily be sued, but whoever originated it could be sued (and if you bought it knowingly, maybe you too). However, the real nastiness is the EULAs of bodies. The fine print might very well state that any offspring of the morph is to be regarded as property of the licencing company. Hmm, do people own their morphs or licence them? I think the scary part is that that a lot of it is licensing. And before we all start to smirk at those evil hypercorps, consider the outer system solution: your body belongs to the local community.
Extropian
fafromnice fafromnice's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
somewhere all of this is a little bit scary at the light of all of this why the hypercorp don't "breed" a work force out of thier lab ? Hey ! Hi ! Steve 224 Hi ! Juliet 867 How you doing ? Not well I have to finish this reports for the bord of Bob

What do you mean a butterfly cause this ? How a butterfly can cause an enviromental system overload on the other side of a 10 000 egos habitat ?

King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
[i]"Ah I hear you have children! Got any photos of them" "Well no, -private photos of their morphs are somewhat restricted due to copyright reasons" "Really?" "Yes, really -my shy kids have subscribed to a service that censor any unauthorized depictions of them, especially from family"[/i]
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
fafromnice wrote:
at the light of all of this why the hypercorp don't "breed" a work force out of thier lab ?
Because it is cheaper to hire people or buy AIs. (Think about it: rearing children and educating them takes a lot of time and money. The only benefit might be that you can indoctrinate them, but by the time they are finished your demands may have changed.)
Extropian
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
That and the ethical reasons. The PC might be a bunch of slaver bastards who don't recognise the rights of Uplifts and AGI, but they still follow some ethical morality. People still have some rights as sentient beings, and if it was ever leaked to the public that a hypercorp was literally breeding slaves (instead of buying them like the rest of us) there would be a PR crises on the scale of the Lost, which Cognite is still reeling from.
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fafromnice fafromnice's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
So how the population of the solar system expand ? if morph can't have babies and no ones wants a bunch of AGI ... who is doing it the old way the Jovian ? Ho ! we are scrud ! the Barsoomian ? I'm sure some shitty hypercorp try to reduce the natality of this population ... so who's making babies ?

What do you mean a butterfly cause this ? How a butterfly can cause an enviromental system overload on the other side of a 10 000 egos habitat ?

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
Indentures and Infugees. Even ten years after the fall there are still millions of people stuck in cold storage. Physical manpower is not something people are goin to run out of anytime soon. Plus, what would be the point of expanding the population? Unless you live on Mars you are probably paying fairly high taxes already just to keep the air flowing. Biological urge? That can be modified out with a quick visit to a psychosurgery. Aiming for genetic immortality? Your child probably won't even have your original genetic code. Legacy? You are already immortal. The Core rulebook actually very briefy touches on this. During the sidebar on the lost there is an offhand comment about how system growth is stagnant. And that makes sense. Look at the current population growths of many western nations. Education, contraception and womens rights have brought it right down, in fact in some countries (I believe Scotland is such an example) birth rates are below native death rates, the only thing keeping them growing is immigration. And the people of EP are just as educated and prepared to counter pregnancy as anyone in the most developed countries. Much more so in many cases.
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nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
Not to mention forking. You can create 'children' instantly, with no carrying, genetic manipulation, or college fund, and he'll never run off with that Brazillian scummer to Extropia.
fafromnice fafromnice's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
for the forking I think people don't see it like a good option ... somewhere in the core book so with half a billion people in the solar system and in ten years we will have ... half a billion people, it's depressing

What do you mean a butterfly cause this ? How a butterfly can cause an enviromental system overload on the other side of a 10 000 egos habitat ?

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
fafromnice wrote:
for the forking I think people don't see it like a good option ... somewhere in the core book so with half a billion people in the solar system and in ten years we will have ... half a billion people, it's depressing
The forking resistance is a cultural thing, a remnant of the idea that identities are indivisible and unique. In ten years time there will he half a billion people who didn't fork, and a trillion descendants of the people who were OK with forking. Copyrations, banyans and fork-clades have plenty of economic advantages and may be very hard to resist. Sure, you can ban the practice, but what do you do when some outer system polity consistently outbids you in the service sector thanks to its wild forking? Or out-creates your creative industry by having millions of copies of a few productive individuals who are now bouncing ideas off each other in various constellations? As I see it, the EP universe is rushing headlong towards a new singularity. Firewall is desperately trying to make sure this one goes better than the last one. And other forces are pushing things in sinister directions...
Extropian
root root's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
root@Reproduction [hr] I think there will still be some natural reproduction, for legal reasons. The oligarchs escaped the Fall with their first bodies (those still living in them), which they have sole and unquestionable ownership of due to grandfather clauses. It becomes a very powerful method of controlling the populace if the oligarchs and their lineage are the only people other than the Jovian poor who have full ownership of their bodies. They could pass laws in the Planetary Consortium that end up benefiting them immensely (update packages are a cost only the poor have to pay), and most people would miss the fact that one of the sources of political control is a blanket exception from morph laws. For building bodies, I'm not sure if they have to be grown in Eclipse Phase, or if they can be directly printed out. If they have to be grown, then they could have "placeholder" AI stuck inside of the morph while in gestation to keep them from growing a personality to avoid issues of autonomy and a natural right to your own body. If you really want to grow a bunch of people with their own bodies (Anarchists who have "clean" morph data to work with), just lay eggs. A medvat can be designed as an exowomb that grows mesh inserts along with the body from the moment of gestation, and the best part is that the parents don't have to give a shit about them. The muses for the children can come preloaded with a knowledge of proper socialization, and with a knowledge of dangers the child will face (don't step into the vacuum. It sucks out there), so the muses can keep the little bastards out of trouble. In this case, the children would not want to have their natural bodies killed, as they are now subjected to morph copyright laws, and become much more exploitable. As for making new egos, I can't see how that would be difficult. Or at least, I can't see how that would be difficult except for that whole "sanity" thing. A random merging of two ego forks to create a blended ego will likely not turn out well, but hopefully knowledge of psychosurgery can allow egos to build sustainable egos with a sense of self and not glaring mental problems. And now here is a question for you: Start with a full AGI infolife, an artificial being that is the sum of its programmed personality and its earned memories. Place it inside of a gestating body at the earliest moment that the body's developing neurons can handle an imprint, and delete its memories. What is it? What will it grow into?
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theshadow99 theshadow99's picture
Re: Reproduction - Do Hypercorps own the copyright to your ...
"A medvat can be designed as an exowomb that grows mesh inserts along with the body from the moment of gestation, and the best part is that the parents don't have to give a shit about them. The muses for the children can come preloaded with a knowledge of proper socialization, and with a knowledge of dangers the child will face (don't step into the vacuum. It sucks out there), so the muses can keep the little bastards out of trouble. In this case, the children would not want to have their natural bodies killed, as they are now subjected to morph copyright laws, and become much more exploitable." Their is actually a GURPS book for what I believe is for their transhuman space line that deals with raising kids in a transhuman world and the companion/babysitter AI's that will 'raise' them. TS though doesn't 'require' 'muses' like EP does, so some of these are more physical robotic forms in classic shapes (robotic dog, android nanny, etc) and others are pure data. It's an interesting read, I'll see if I can find the particular book in my collection...