I have a few questions. I figured I would combine them all into one topic.
1. First I was curious if you could make normal animals as full biomorphs. I know they can be pods, and there are a number of examples of that. But for a full biomorph, I am not sure if their brains are developed enough to be reconstructed to house a ego. But I might be wrong, could the nanomachines reconstruct a well known brain structure to house it.
2. Building on the last question. A number of animals have a number most if not all the requirements of a transhuman. Things like primates obviously have all the requirements that transhumanity requires. But so do other creatures to various degrees. Such as say squirrel, chipmunks, raccoons, and other mammals. Are these possible use as biomorphs or pods in EP. Though I understand the limited amount of DNA data moved off planet before the Fall, so many will not be possible.
If so what would be the social stigmas on these deviants.
3. What about the AGI/Informoph as a muse. I see it mentioned briefly in the books. But as I understand a Muse does a great deal of menial work that might bore your average AGI/Infomorph. Filtering, searching, and many other things. I was wondering how this comes into play. Does a Muse just start a bunch of very minor programs to do this and is idle most the time or does it do active constant work.
4. On the note of Muses, is it possible to put a muse in a morph. It's normal functions won't be usable obviously. But could such a thing be useful, could there be social stigma against that? AS a simple AI would the Muse even be able to cope.
5. On that note how about some other generic AI in a morph. Some are made for it, maintence robots. But how about biomorphs. Could a normal AI be put into a Biomorph, how about a Muse? Very likely would not be taken well by most (especially infogees, considering the limited number of morphs as it is).
6. Even more on that topic. An AGI in a biomorph, how noticable is it that that AGI is a.. well.. an AGI to a normal transhuman? Again social stigma against these AGI for having a Biomorph. Would it be more extreme then just an AGI in a Synth or as an Infomorph.
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Questions about Muses, AGIs, AIs, and Morphs.
Thu, 2012-12-13 01:26
#1
Chase-san
Questions about Muses, AGIs, AIs, and Morphs.
Thu, 2012-12-13 02:29
#2
Fion Ravenwater
1. I'm pretty sure this isn't
1. I'm pretty sure this isn't possible. I can't give you a straight answer on why at the moment, though.
3. This is possible, but you'd have to find yourself an AGI or infomorph that wouldn't rather do their own thing instead of helping you do what you could do with a simple muse.
4. No. AGI are specially programmed to correspond with transhuman brain states and this allows them to sleeve into a biomorph the same way a transhuman would, and muses are built in a different, simpler fashion. You might be able to stick one in a morph with a cyberbrain, but unlike an AGI (which has the sensory and motion packages for interacting with a physical body), muses aren't expected to have to use a physical body and as such have no infrastructure for that sort of thing.
5. I'd imagine most AI would run into the same problems as a muse would.
Thu, 2012-12-13 03:17
#3
Chase-san
My guess from your answering
My guess from your answering is that an AI/Muse would not be able to operate even a synthmorph if not designed for it, and would likely just run on the cyberbrain as if it was a computer. That is, doing nothing with the morph.
This is me speculating now. I would think the brain of a biomorph would have to be both complex enough to hold whatever infomorph wishes to sleeve into it (human,uplift,agi,seed delta,etc). While at the same time the mind has to be complex enough to survive sleeving into the given morph.
Probably being too different from a human makes biomorph sleeving difficult. Either for transhumans/AGI/uplifts into a strange biomorph or an alien mind into a transhuman/uplift biomorph.
If I was running I would allow sleeving into strange biomorphs. But throw another alienation test to see how badly damaged their ego becomes as a result.
Critical Success- Sleeve as normal
Success- as Beta Fork
Failure- as Delta Fork
Critical Failure- as Gamma Fork (vapor)
----
7. That brings me to another question, what if you try to sleeve into a morph with a preexisting ego? Would it be like merging, or would it just completely erase the existing ego. I could see it being either, even in the case of a synthmorph. But the leftover would at best be a vapor (unless you are trying to merge with it).
8. Speaking of merging egos and stuff like that. It is never gone into detail in the book(s) that I can recall. Is there any further resource on that kind of thing. Ego Mixing and so forth.
Thu, 2012-12-13 03:32
#4
DivineWrath
1. Normal animals, as in cats
1. Normal animals, as in cats and dogs that walk on all 4s? Should be possible with a ghost rider module and a puppet sock augmentations. Actually, there was this instance in one of the books where it describes a type of fish used as a prison, keeping the individual stored in a ghost rider module with a cortical stack backup. The individual imprisoned had no control over the creature, and the individual could sense everything the creature did (many experiences being unpleasant).
Without opposable thumbs or the ability to speak, you might not get much use out of such morphs though.
2. In theory yes, nearly any animal could be made into a morph if given the right augmentations. In fact, a number of creatures discovered through the gates have been turned into pod morphs (one of which was a plant that could move around). Full biomorphs of these creatures are under development still.
However, in the setting a significant number of people find it really odd (especially in the inner system) when a human sleeves into an ape uplift morph. Some even question their mental stability. Some of the setting lore even suggests that people who have a history of sleeving into uplift morphs brings out a whole bunch of red take "to keep the public safe" and other stuff like that. Intentionally going with something weirder tends to increase the intensity of this response and others like it.
4. A muse is an limited AI. Most AIs you can find are limited AIs. As a limited AI, a muse can do anything that a limited AI can do, such as being sleeved in a synthmorph (and I think podmorphs as well because of their cyberbrains but I'm not sure). However, limited AIs do suffer from some problems such as not being able to default actions (if they weren't programed to do something, they are not going to be able to do it). Such limitations were designed in place to prevent AIs from going rouge (like the TITANs did). Since muses are programed to be infolife servants, and not robots, they are probably going to have difficulty doing a number of physical actions (until they get reprogrammed or updated).
5. A muse is an limited AI, one designed for a very specific function. Since limited AIs can't be sleeved in a biomorph, neither can muses. However, AGIs can be sleeved in biomorphs (with some difficulty).
6. I don't recall that AGIs suffer any special penalties unless they have certain negative traits. The infolife background does list "Real World Naivete" and "Social Stigma (AGI)" as negative traits, so they might suffer from some problems. Not having proper knowledge about the real world can be fixed over time as you learn about the real world, but being created as an AGI is something you may need to hide forever.
Thu, 2012-12-13 03:41
#5
Chase-san
DivineWrath wrote:1. Normal
I was generally referring to a full biomorph. I know cats, dogs, birds and fish can be pods or prisons. I was curious about full biomorph viability. It doesn't make a huge difference between bio and pod for these, but I was curious none the less.
Thu, 2012-12-13 03:53
#6
DivineWrath
7. I imagine that they erase
7. I imagine that they erase the old ego as part of the sleeving process. The sleeving process rearranges all the brain cells in the brain to form the ego. The old ego would disappear as the brain cells used to form it are separated and rearranged to form the new ego. Its like taking apart a lego house into the individual bricks and building a new lego house. Any resemblances between the new and old egos would be mere coincidences.
Psychosugery might be an option though. Its not uncommon for certain people to want to edit their personality. If you wanted to resemble the old person, you could see a psychosurgen to fix you up.
I think it is a good habit to keep unused biomorphs erased. You don't want to accidentally create a fork by waking it up from cold storage.
Thu, 2012-12-13 04:01
#7
DivineWrath
Chase-san wrote:DivineWrath
You mean uplifts then. Uplifts are animals that are improved to human like functionality. Usually this means giving a creature hands, speech, and a better brain. The current variety had the shortest evolutionary leap to become uplifted. Cats, dogs, and other creatures still have much research to be done before they become viable.
Thu, 2012-12-13 05:21
#8
Chase-san
Actually I didn't mean
Actually I didn't mean uplifts. I know uplifts can be sleeved into as any other biomorph by any transhuman or uplift mind. Dodging around the question a bit.
Normal non-uplift animals and/or smart-animal biomorph viability. It is only hinted at in Nine Lives criminal entry in the core rulebook. In v3 it doesn't seem to mention it, but I think in an earlier version it mentioned the combinations possibly quite insane (but I am not entirely certain).
They could be pods, certainly. But I was interested in animal bodies as biomorphs for that particular question. I am not really `that` into the question, just trying to get some opinions on it then my own.
Thu, 2012-12-13 12:30
#9
nezumi.hebereke
(None of these are documented
(None of these are documented in the rules, it's just common sense. Take it or leave it.)
I think the issue is primarily one of space (especially the brain:mass ratio). There's probably space for tweaking with many of these critters. A shark has enough space for an expanded brain-case, to host a consciousness (although the issue there is its slow metabolism). But a hamster almost certainly doesn't. You could probably 'cheat', and host most of the ego in the mesh as an infomorph, with only part of it sleeved in the hamster, but that's, well, cheating.
I suppose it's hypothetically possible to create a biomorph swarm, like say a swarm of scarab beetles, each hosting a tiny portion of the consciousness, but it may be 'cutting edge', and relying on enough cyber tweaks for it not to count.
Overall, if a PC said he's wearing a labrador morph, I wouldn't have an issue (although it'll be pricey). Anything below large housecat I'd probably rule out.
This is a rather vague question. Are you asking if you can take a squirrel ego and resleeve it in a new morph? If so, I'd say the answer is yes, but the equipment isn't made for it, so you'd have to tweak (or design) it yourself.
Socially it's like animal testing, and carries the same stigma. Are you doing an experiment where you put your beloved pet in a superior body? Or are you just playing Dr. Moreau and mixing and matching for fun?
Obviously a squirrel isn't going to be able to engage in the basic social grooming and exercises a transhuman could, so the squirrel will suffer pretty significant social stigma.
Sure, assuming that ego consents. You can also use forks of yourself. Would you enjoy a job where all day you surf email and newsgroups?
Depends on the individual setup. Most people probably own the minimum necessary processing power to host their muse, and it draws all additional processing power from the mesh, so it works like a metered cloud service. You need 2 teraflops for 5 minutes? You get 2 teraflops for 5 minutes. Any "idle" is absorbed by the infrastructure, it isn't yours.
For other people, including Firewall agents, you'll take the time to own and configure your own, private processing space, which means you own that idle time. In which case this is just like idle time on your home PC. If you're a programmer, your muse may usually be compiling or optimizing code, and your other activities like checking email come out of that, so there is no "idle" time. Or maybe it's like my home PC, which runs BOINC in the background, so I donate my idle time to another needy cause. Or perhaps you leave it mining bitcoins, so you turn some profit.
As with two. I'd argue yes, it's like putting in a delta fork. You can, but it's not very useful. They can "cope" in that they're not going to have a mental breakdown. But don't expect them to be cooking you dinner or anything. Muses aren't usually programmed with things like "movement", and if they were, they don't have things like "motivations". At best, you can get a smart-robo-butler.
My assumption is yes (in most cases). Synthbrains are modeled after our natural brains, and everything in EP is basically plug-and-play. So pull an ego (limited or not) from one place, you can fit it in another. Sometimes the combination is weird enough that you need to make some adjustments (or find some other brainhacker to do it for you), but it's always possible. If it's reasonable that it's already been done, it probably has been, and there's a good chance the instructions and code are even available online for free, or for a reasonable price.
Not (barring obvious special cases, such as "this is a killbot AGI, and will kill everyone with its laser arms".)
Probably still pretty high. I imagine this being similar to miscenegation in the 1950s. Some people think the AGIs are dangerous and should just go back to their own kind. Some people are more liberal and are fine with AGIs, but think AGIs permanently taking expensive biomorphs when there are homo sapien sapiens who still need morphs is unethical, others think it's fine as long as it's not THEIR morph, some just don't care. When it comes to sheer population numbers, only a small percentage of homo sapien sapiens are going to be happy about it.
Thu, 2012-12-13 23:31
#10
Chase-san
Sorry about how unclear my
Sorry about how unclear my original questions are. I was very likely tired when I wrote them.
You actually answered #2 with #1. Your answer for #2 is useful, but, yes, obvious. Let me see if I got this.
Based on the size of full grown Koi. Anything that has at least an cubic inch or two to spare can be a pod (Koi are about 5 cubic inches in volume, but the shadowrider module is likely not as big as the fish as it can hardly be noticed as mentioned in the book). Though you may not be able to get the cyberbrain in the 'head' of the animal in some cases, due to size limits.
Actual full on biomorphs require at least a certain size of creature and a decent understanding of its Brain Structure. Sentient creatures are cheaper, since they require less work to make into a biomorph (unless they are alien of course, which is a different can of worms).
As for #3, I was referring to how the muse delegates its work. Does the muse handle all the work internally, or is it just a daemon. That is to say fires up other specialized programs as needed to do said work. I would have to say as an actual `computer programmer` I would likely have it be the daemon. (Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler).
As for processing power I don't really agree with that. Not one bit. Since this is the far future, a normal ecto/inserts probably have plenty of processing power, and it is only pulled from meshed when massive processing power is required. After all how would you do anything if your stuck on earth, or a strange exo planet without a mesh?
The rest more or less answers my questions. I especially like your answers for #6. I also enjoyed #5 a bit.
Fri, 2012-12-14 08:15
#11
Lorsa
I am going to give my view on
I am going to give my view on things without reading too much of what others have written (I'll get into that later).
1. Only animals that have successfully been "uplifted" would be able to house a transhuman ego. Your average housecat, while it can be smarter, is probably not able to house a full ego.
2. As you stated, you can have these morphs with cyberbrains as a sort of pod or even remote control them through a puppet sock but as real biomorphs? No, probably not.
3. Yes, you could have an infomorph as a muse. In fact, you could even be your own muse! A muse is a helper and "almost" a necessity but not really. I am sure some basic "spamfilter" for annoying AR could be run as simple programs or at least much simpler AI than a muse is. All the rest, searching stuff for you, checking news, keeping track of your daily schedule etc could be done either by you (especially if you have a multitasking implant) or an infomorph in a ghostrider module. Would it be boring? Probably yes. Muses are basic AI's, I don't think they have the programming to be "bored" whereas a true transhuman mind (AGI or not) would.
4. I don't think you can put a muse in a morph. Or maybe you could but it doesn't have the programming to control it. You need either a specialized AI programmed to control a morph or an AGI. Most AI's, like muses, I imagine have some limits and while they can learn things there are still things that are out of their reach.
5. Again, I believe you need an AI programmed specifically to be able to control a biomorph in order to put them into one. It can be done but most basic AI's aren't made for it.
6. Social stigma is a weird trait and I find it odd that it exist and is hardcoded into some backgrounds / morphs. Some people are more accepting than others and what is social stigma at a scum barge is hardly the same thing as in New Shanghai. I imagine though that in some places, an AGI in a biomorph is worse than an AGI in a case. That is, unless they hate AGI's altogether in which case it doesn't matter what form they come in. As for noticing it all depends on how good social skills the AGI has or how old it is. The only thing you will really 'notice' I suppose is the "real world naivité" an AGI comes with. So either it is good at hiding it or it is old enough that it has lost the trait entirely in which case a brainscan is required. Even so I imagine it is possible to program an AGI so that it is undetectable and they are made to be humanlike so is it possible to pretend to be a "real human" - yes of course. In fact, what IS "a real human" these days anyway...
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