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Question for a Neurologist

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Baalbamoth Baalbamoth's picture
Question for a Neurologist
ok, I have a player in my game who is an Ultimate genefixer, he wants to create a genetic alteration or new organ that allows a child to inherrit the skills of its progenitors. IE great grandpa was a boxer, grandpa was an electrician, dad is a surgon, son is born with the skills and knowledge of all three. I looked into a few websites where they talk about cellular memory/cellular conciousness but primarily it seems that IF it is a real occurance, the recievers of organs (from a transplant) may develop some likes and dislikes of the donors but it does not confer any type of knowedge or learning. This is sometimes attributed to neuropeptide transfer. can you, oh great neurologist... think of any sci fi genetic development where this could happen logically? if so how?
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
I'm no neurologist, but I don
I'm no neurologist, but I don't think that learned skills would be easy to transfer through conventional reproduction. A somewhat expanded set of useful instincts might be a good start, but I'm not sure that you could automatically code arbitrary learned skills into instincts and insert them into your offspring's DNA. That is pretty much how you would do it, but that sounds beyond tranhuman technology and the attempt will likely go wrong in a plot-hook-worthy manner. A skill soft would or the skill artifact morph trait also lets a neophyte have a leg up on the competition, but neither sounds like what you're talking about.
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
in eclipse phase memory is
in eclipse phase memory is defiantly an artefact of the brain and not the reproductive organs. Note that if you have only a brain you can perform an upload after death (if your quick) but if you have just the testis your out of luck. That said I do see a way it could be done. I am putting it in spoiler tags because it is not for the week of stomach.
Spoiler: Highlight to view
Take a fork of each parent duplicate each many times, engage in psycho surgery to remove as much baggage as possible without interfering with the skills too much (will probably make them beta forks, max skill 60) merge these using the rules in transhumant (you know the ones that are incapable of turning a willing ego insane because you had to be insane to be willing). Perform intensive time accelerated therapy and psycho surgery in an attempt to have a sain ego with the skills of the parent but the clean slate psyche of an infant. Because the above procedure is nigh imposable have AIs perform it hundreds of times in parallel using time accelerated simulspace. Mercilessly destroy any resulting mind that is less than perfect. While preparing the mind grow a baby in an exo womb and put it on an ego bridge. Destroy the mind of the newborn infant to over write it with the mind you culled from thousands of failed experiments. You now have a baby with the skills of its parents. If it uses the same procedure its young will start life with 2 generations of skills. On the + side your child will know you loved it more than the thousands of other potential children you deleted.
Baalbamoth Baalbamoth's picture
well,
your spoiler answer works but it isnt what the character is looking for, he wants something like the 40k space marine gene seed. but your mentioning of ego in testis and gave me an idea so I'm thinking of another possiblity... ok so you can get distributed intellegence in a swarm morph, why not distributed intellegence in a sperm swarm or eggs? and if the sperm/egg are just too tiny, just alter the size of the reproductive organs sperm/ovum so that your insect sized sperm now carry your forked ego/skills and when these meet the egg its works as a kind of a fork merger where the resulting offspring has all the skills and memories of both parrents but a personality that is a combination of the two. It would mean likely large sized morphs and even at that tremendously huge sexual organs (is that really a downside?) it would also mean the player's new ultimate race couldent breed with non-giantwenis transhumans keeping his genetics pure. lol maybe you could even set the insecto-sperm to become bio-dissasemmblers if used on a non-new ultimate... "your error in judgement has led to your transhuman girlfriend being turned into this plile of goo, perhaps next time you will choose a more viable mate." I know I'm being goofy but does the distributed ego sperm idea sound at all plausable?
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
Baalbamoth wrote:your spoiler
Baalbamoth wrote:
your spoiler answer works but it isnt what the character is looking for, he wants something like the 40k space marine gene seed. but your mentioning of ego in testis and gave me an idea so I'm thinking of another possiblity... ok so you can get distributed intellegence in a swarm morph, why not distributed intellegence in a sperm swarm or eggs? and if the sperm/egg are just too tiny, just alter the size of the reproductive organs sperm/ovum so that your insect sized sperm now carry your forked ego/skills and when these meet the egg its works as a kind of a fork merger where the resulting offspring has all the skills and memories of both parrents but a personality that is a combination of the two. It would mean likely large sized morphs and even at that tremendously huge sexual organs (is that really a downside?) it would also mean the player's new ultimate race couldent breed with non-giantwenis transhumans keeping his genetics pure. lol maybe you could even set the insecto-sperm to become bio-dissasemmblers if used on a non-new ultimate... "your error in judgement has led to your transhuman girlfriend being turned into this plile of goo, perhaps next time you will choose a more viable mate." I know I'm being goofy but does the distributed ego sperm idea sound at all plausable?
The egg and sperm are each single cells (the egg being a particularly large cell to aid in development and the sperm being a dna packet with propulsion) and, barring a specific anomaly only one of each form the resulting offspring (there is a sort of reverse twin thing where two fertilized eggs stick together to make one individual with two sets of DNA that sometimes happens as well). Either way, distributing an ego between multiple sperm or eggs wouldn't help even if it were possible unless the mechanisms of reproduction were radically changed. Maybe we are going about this all wrong though. Perhaps it would be easier to have the memories transfer during development. If you go with a more traditional pregnancy (or a modified exo-womb) you could have the developing fetus's brain download skills/knowledge from the mother by use of new organs designed for such a purpose. I don't know how having the knowledge of how to kill a man with only his thumbs would effect a new-born, but I doubt it would be good. This is a difficult task and there will be LOTS of failures before any successes. You may get crazy babies, brain-dead babies, psychotic babies, and more.
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
Baalbamoth wrote:your spoiler
Baalbamoth wrote:
your spoiler answer works but it isnt what the character is looking for, he wants something like the 40k space marine gene seed. but your mentioning of ego in testis and gave me an idea so I'm thinking of another possiblity... ok so you can get distributed intellegence in a swarm morph, why not distributed intellegence in a sperm swarm or eggs? and if the sperm/egg are just too tiny, just alter the size of the reproductive organs sperm/ovum so that your insect sized sperm now carry your forked ego/skills and when these meet the egg its works as a kind of a fork merger where the resulting offspring has all the skills and memories of both parrents but a personality that is a combination of the two. It would mean likely large sized morphs and even at that tremendously huge sexual organs (is that really a downside?) it would also mean the player's new ultimate race couldent breed with non-giantwenis transhumans keeping his genetics pure. lol maybe you could even set the insecto-sperm to become bio-dissasemmblers if used on a non-new ultimate... "your error in judgement has led to your transhuman girlfriend being turned into this plile of goo, perhaps next time you will choose a more viable mate." I know I'm being goofy but does the distributed ego sperm idea sound at all plausable?
Character background scumborn faction ultimats, nobody else could conceive of that
godmoney godmoney's picture
no kwisatz haderach for you!
no kwisatz haderach for you! :P I would work it like edited memories in conjunction with zombiekat neonatal medicine. so that as the morph develops and matures certain skills will blossom into memory in trigger events.
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi!?!
Baalbamoth Baalbamoth's picture
problems
yeah, that works if just the mother's skills were downloaded to the child, and essentially your doing psychosurgy on the fetus, probably using nanites... but of course thats not what he wants. ok, so radical reproductive change. how would that work?
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
You want it as a biological
You want it as a biological system. I have an idea but it is a truly radical change not just to the reproductive system but to the basic layout of a person. This is the kind of radical structural changes that only exhumans and meathab would perform. The typical ultimate philosophy is to become enhanced perfected humans, but still using the basic human body plan. That’s ok this is an unusual ultimate and for the advantages others may go for it. The first major structural change is to put the brain right beside the reproductive organs. The primary brain is roughly the size of a transhumant brain and handles all the tasks of a transhumant brain, memory, reasoning, body regulation. Adjacent to the brain there is a bundle of stem cells that grow a specialised auxiliary brain that only handles memory and mirrors the memories of the primary brain. For reproduction the male transfers his secondary brain into the female along with the genetic information (or both parents transfer their secondary brains into the exowomb or maybe they make a biological egg like exowomb) as the foetus develops its new genetic tissue infiltrates its parents secondary brains while the body grows around them the newborn’s primary brain would be chimeric with some cells containing its own genetics while others contain exclusively paternal or maternal DNA. The child now has all the memories and skills of both parents. The reproductive cycle of this new species would be restricted, you can’t mate again until you have grown a new secondary brain, This could take a long time so stillbirths are an even larger tragedy than among transhumans, even a full mating when the females egg is faulty means you can’t try again for probably 6 months. The entire reproductive system must work first time, every time. Having worked out the reproductive system you build a body with mobility and manipulative appendages any shape you can make work around that reproductive system. It will however be obviously alian. The other problem is the scope of the project. You are going to need an understanding of neurology, psychology and genetics that is not available in the setting your designing an new species with entirely novel gross structures (which has never been done before) relating to the brain and mind (which is only understood at a level which makes comparable procedures produce severe psychological damage when successful) your probably talking a decades long project with a reasonably large project staff to get it working with sufishant reliability and stability for an ultimat to accept (an ex-human could get it done in a half the time but the offspring would be as nuts as they are)
Baalbamoth Baalbamoth's picture
there are other issues as well.
child seems like it would come out with DID not knowing which personality/memory set it is and alternating between the two, there would need to be some kind of ego merging, which I think could be just as destructive to the infants sanity. but all good hooks any way ya go. as far as the science capable... could a non-malign exsurgent virus, or a specific strain of it cut back on the time necessary for completion?
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
If you got the system right
If you got the system right the child would either have access to both, while still developing its own personality, or would fully integrate both sets in the first few years of life. because the memories where stored deliberately in a way that makes merging easy, and the merging is being performed over a couple of years rather than weeks it will not result in any insanities, if the system works. A very specific non malign strain of exurgent could help but remember the closest so far is Watts-MacLeod which still causes mental instabilities. Short of finding a gift from god strain you’re going to have to modify it yourself, and before that you need to understand how it works. Use one that isn’t perfect and you get ex-human style mental problems.
nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
You are shoving two life
You are shoving two life-times worth of knowledge (or more for subsequent generations) into a developing brain through experimental biological processes! I don't see how you would ever result in a well-adjusted, sane kid with that. We have an Ultimate who finds that his project promises to rob himself and his progeny of their humanity. If he goes forward, he will be taking the first steps into exhumanism. The exurgent virus is basically Clark's Law magic. I would not think it too far to have an exsurgent code memories into DNA passing skills along as instincts. It isn't like you can't pass along some fairly complex abilities with DNA, but automatically coding learned skills into DNA is far beyond the wildest dreams of transhumanity. TITAN nanotech and the exurgent virus need not be so limited. Of course, it is extremely rare to find a strain of the virus without serious side effects. Do you really want to find out the side effects for a strain that modifies the development of a child's brain?
Baalbamoth Baalbamoth's picture
hehe hehe
well what the members of this firewall team dont know... is they are all carrying a strain of the exsurgent, (the strain that allows possession, forgot what its called) and it was weird how this character's desires for the creation of a new race of ultimates (yes bordering on exhuman) might actually benifit from his contact with it... at least in the short term... I actually think the dude will figure it out this week or next... if you want more info go to the homebrew section and read my post about "damaged goods, character backgrounds" its about 20 pages of emailed background info on the characters...
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."