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Pre-Fall Religons in EP

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TheWanderingJewels TheWanderingJewels's picture
Pre-Fall Religons in EP
I can across the entry for Pre-Fall religions in Eclipse Phase, I had to roll my eyes a bit at the declaration that most of the Pre-Fall Abrahamic Religions would lose followers or would become ghosts of their former selves. It would be more accurate to say that certain sects of said religions would fall to near nothing or disappear completely, (the more escatological sects, with a rather Definitve Apocalypse having come and gone), but the non apocalyptic sects would more than likely adapt and move on. for a fairly large list of sects For Christianity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations For Jewish Sects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism For Islamic Sects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_schools_and_branches A a mild thought on each religion's Sects (I'm not going to get into an argument on theology), those that are based on pligrimage to certain areas on Earth are going to have a VERY big problem adapting as Earth is a No Go Zone (tho might make for some lucrative runs for nabbing cultural artifacts), but the non-'place' based sects will probably add a few lines about moving out to the stars and the nature of the soul with Body swapping technology. I'm about to make a few generalizations and I am not intend to step on anyone else's toes but here area few observations on some of the Abrhamic Branches I see as being likely: Christianity: Roman Catholicism will survive from sheer inertia if nothing else as Apocalypse tends to bind people closer together to have SOMETHING to cling too. I imagine the First Space Pope Arising in the Jovian Belt and Encyclicals on Transhumanism (for the negative) being issued. There is also the possibility of a second Pope within system issuing counter encyclicals, making for interesting denomination conflict. The Eastern Orthodox Church will still be around in it's varied forms, tho I'm given to wonder if they may go back to a more spartan look given the evacuation from earth. The Oriental Othordox Church may not survive simply due to the relative lack of membership nations that might have easy access to spaceflight tech during the fall. Anglicanism will more than likely survive as it is not as Apocalyptic based and due to it's rather wide spread nature. Protestantism will also survive, if nothing else to Resist the authority of the Space Pope(s). Lutheranism I can actually see making a strong come back after the Fall, with a emphasis on community and looking out for each other, as well as fighting corruption on the metaphorical level (with the HyperCorps), and physical metaphysical level with TITANS viron suferers. Baptists are going to have a bit of a problem due to a lack of rivers or other places of baptism.....thought I suppose the common dunking ones head in a station "Shower" might work. I am not too familiar with this particular sect, so bear with me. Calvinism might sink it's claws into the Jovians as it is a rather strict and 'puritan' sect, and neo-Calvinist (Read: very old school, very humorless) zealots preaching against Transhumanity in all it's variations would not be surprising. The Later Day Saints Sect might be in a decent enough position to Challenge the new Space Pope if they are able to get enough people off planet. Given that Polygamy was a suppressed (but accepted) practice could give the LDS a edge in the Long Game. As to other sects of Christianity, I fear I have little familiarity with them, and will chose not to comment. Judaism: as Judaism by in large is not based on the concept of the End Times, it will probably whether The Fall better than most, as Judaism has had to deal with metaphorical and literal apocalypses in it's history more than once. Orthodox Judaism will likely adapt better than expected, but will have some problems with body swapping technologies (the medical advances, not so much), as downloading brings the question of the soul being copied. Expect a rather intense Rabbinical argument over the matter across all sects. The Segregation of Male and Females is also going to be thrown for a loop, but as this is the most traditionalist sect of Judaism (within reason, only recently were Hasidic Orthodox allowed to shave due to the electric razor), expect them to being on the somewhat lower tech end of encounters. Conservative Judaism is the middle ground of Judaism in that keep many of the aspects of Orthodox Judaism, with a note that Judaic law is flexible due to the times, but will try to conserve as much of the original intent as possible. Also they do not consider the Torah as the literal word of God. Given this flexability, this sect will be around after the fall in relatively (all things being equal) respectable numbers. Reform Judaism is what could be called 'progressive' and is more interested in following the moral laws provided by Torah as opposed to ritual. Given the relative lack of space provided for rituals on space stations, this sect should do rather well. As a Footnote, I would expect a holiday commemorating "Terra Diaspora" to be added to the Holy Days in the Jewish Calender after the Fall. Will expound on the Islamic sects after getting some rest Conservative Judaism
A brave little theory, and actually quite coherent for a system of five or seven dimensions--if only we lived in one. Academician Prokhor Zakharov "Now We Are Alone"
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Pre-Fall Religons in EP
TheWanderingJewels wrote:
I can across the entry for Pre-Fall religions in Eclipse Phase, I had to roll my eyes a bit at the declaration that most of the Pre-Fall Abrahamic Religions would lose followers or would become ghosts of their former selves. It would be more accurate to say that certain sects of said religions would fall to near nothing or disappear completely, (the more escatological sects, with a rather Definitve Apocalypse having come and gone), but the non apocalyptic sects would more than likely adapt and move on. for a fairly large list of sects For Christianity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations For Jewish Sects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism For Islamic Sects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_schools_and_branches A a mild thought on each religion's Sects (I'm not going to get into an argument on theology), those that are based on pligrimage to certain areas on Earth are going to have a VERY big problem adapting as Earth is a No Go Zone (tho might make for some lucrative runs for nabbing cultural artifacts), but the non-'place' based sects will probably add a few lines about moving out to the stars and the nature of the soul with Body swapping technology.
Okay, let's get one thing clear. The book never says that these religions lost followers in the sense that they left the religion. It says that they were wiped out by the wrath of the TITANs, which killed most, if not all, followers of such religions. This is primarily because very few made it off of Earth with their bodies, and most of those who follow an Abrahamic faith simply would not consent to using egocasting, which was the key technology that saved most of those who fled Earth. That's what it comes down to. This isn't the developers trying to eliminate groups they dislike, but trying to create a scenario which really makes you believe the devastation that ravaged the human race. We lost so much in such a short time. That said, these groups aren't necessarily extinct per se. However, you can hardly consider a group of a couple dozen surviving Catholics to be an entire religion. Hell, by modern classifications we'd probably consider that a cult. To that end, many people cryogenically froze themselves on Earth, and reviving a group may be as simple as finding their remains and uploading their consciences from their popsicle-bodies.
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evapor8 evapor8's picture
Re: Pre-Fall Religons in EP
TheWanderingJewels wrote:
Religion's Sects ... based on pilgrimage to certain areas on Earth are going to have a VERY big problem adapting as Earth is a No Go Zone (tho might make for some lucrative runs for nabbing cultural artifacts).
That is such a good MacGuffin for an escort quest back to earth... Thinking of pre-fall religions, The Jon Courtney Grimwood book redRobe has a great habitat floating out in space for (in his world) the refugee Buddhists: the Samsara, Wheel of Life.
Quote:
Out beyond Luna, out even beyond the Arc, the Wheel of God spun in space, telling off endless prayers. Around the 1500 or so miles of its outer rim were attached three million scraps of calligraphy, each gummed in place at the top right corner. They were the prayers of the faithful, written in Sanskrit, the ancient language of India, and woodblocked onto rice fabric by Buddhist monks. Each tiny script had been fixed in place by a hired gang of Deacon Blues, space dwelling salvage rats subcontracted by the Dalai Lama.
It could fit with/massaged into the neo-Buddhist sects of Eclipse Phase. You'd have to get your hands on the book for a more detailed idea of how the hab is run by the Dalai llama, with parts leased out to tourist operators and certain theme park franchises etc. But the notion that the pre-fall Tibetans are exiled from earth and are using an O'neill cylinder (rather than pre-fall India) could be quite compelling(that is of course if any of the blighters survived the Titans).
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Pre-Fall Religons in EP
TheWanderingJewels wrote:
Baptists are going to have a bit of a problem due to a lack of rivers or other places of baptism.....thought I suppose the common dunking ones head in a station "Shower" might work. I am not too familiar with this particular sect, so bear with me.
Modern Baptists just use what amounts to a special bath tub behind the altar. I'm guessing you've never been to a church in America, huh? They're one of the largest forms of Protestantism there.
Quote:
The Later Day Saints Sect might be in a decent enough position to Challenge the new Space Pope if they are able to get enough people off planet. Given that Polygamy was a suppressed (but accepted) practice could give the LDS a edge in the Long Game.
LDS aren't polygamists any more. They believe their leaders have divine revelations, and it was banned in 1890. I think they'd probably have a decent number of survivors, though; they're pretty heavily into survivalism, and I wouldn't be surprised if they had a lot of Ego Bridges and Egocasters as a part of that.

+1 r-Rep , +1 @-rep

Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Pre-Fall Religons in EP
I tried to imagine different take on fate of Catholic Church, but once you come into the issue of egocasting, you understand why the numbers dropped. I doubt that even reformed mainstream Church would allow to temper with your soul, and as such the numbers of Catholics are probably very very limited-perhaps exlusive to settlements on Mars and Luna, that moved there by physical means. That goes for a lot of other religions. I think there would be bishops for Marsa and Luna-since they were already large settlements before the Fall, and some religious people defintely would find themselves in space, but as to the mainstream Catholic Church I don't see it having great numbers besides those areas. Another problem is that with restrictions on Egocasting and other aspects of transhumanist technology, people are restricted from a lot of economic activity, further eroding the attractivness of the religion. So while I wouldn't say that Catholic Church or Judaism disapppeared completely, they probably have small following in the form known as today. Now, as to the Omega Point Reformed Catholic Church that would be completely different matter-I will describe my idea later :)
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TheWanderingJewels TheWanderingJewels's picture
Re: Pre-Fall Religons in EP
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
I tried to imagine different take on fate of Catholic Church, but once you come into the issue of egocasting, you understand while the numbers dropped. I doubt that even reformed mainstream Church would allow to temper with your soul, and as such the numbers of Catholics are probably very very limited-perhaps exlusive to settlements on Mars and Luna, that moved there by physical means. That goes for a lot of other religions. I think there would be bishops for Marsa and Luna-since they were already large settlements before the Fall, and some religious people defintely would find themselves in space, but as to the mainstream Catholic Church I don't see it having great numbers besides those areas. Another problem is that with restrictions on Egocasting and other aspects of transhumanist technology, people are restricted from a lot of economic activity, further eroding the attractivness of the religion. So while I wouldn't say that Catholic Church or Judaism disapppeared completely, they probably have small following in the form known as today. Now, as to the Omega Point Reformed Catholic Church that would be completely different matter-I will describe my idea later :)
Which furthers my point about some of the more conservative branches having severe problems in survival. but as the technology hit the ground some of the more progressive branches may have had midrash or encyclicals over the whole bit on soul transferance (which would be the BIG issue), tho the sections leaning towards reincarnation in Christianity and Judaism would probably roll with it fairly well The the OPRCC sounds very interesting :)
A brave little theory, and actually quite coherent for a system of five or seven dimensions--if only we lived in one. Academician Prokhor Zakharov "Now We Are Alone"
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Pre-Fall Religons in EP
Religiosity and keeping to a community rises when people are under threat; I expect that the Fall really made many surivors to cleave to their parent's religion for the first time in years. But as discussed above, there was also a hefty selection effect in that people OK with egocasting were far more likely to survive. Here is my take on it: Most big religions survived in one form or another, even if some key tenets (like making the hajj to Mecca) became problematic. People are inventive and will invent a theologically acceptable solution (such as priests now regarding Earth reclamation a religious duty, and that a virtual hajj works as a stop-gap measure and remembrance before that happens). Religions smaller than a few thousand members were mostly wiped out, so were groups that couldn't accept egocasting at all (e.g. some forms of Judaism). A lot of nonbelievers may have been converted, by missionaries or just peer influence (you are the lone agnostic on a barge filled with pentecostals; your world has ended, everybody you knew is dead or worse. The pentecostals at least have each other and seem hopeful - how long could you stay out?) The Catholic church no doubt survived, since by the time of the Fall there were definitely a few off-earth congregations and that implies they had local organisation, resources and maybe one or two bishops. That is enough to bootstrap apostolic succession. For all practical purposes the church is like a very old megacorp, and it does have routines for disaster management. Protestant churches may have less ingrained structure but they can also reform very flexibly. I expect groups like the quakers might do really well in the outer system. Not an expert on Judaism, the previous discussions seem to make sense. Islam might have had minor trouble with the loss of the hajj, but like the issue of prayer directions muslims will find a way. Like protestantism it is not terribly in need of complex organisation, and the close tie between religion, law and community might give it an advantage. Hinduism probably did just fine: a great loss of sacred places, temples and believers, but it is based on keeping up traditions (i.e. great psychological terror management) so the core can easily go on. The ideas of reincarnation of course make egocasting pretty OK, and might even have synergized in new ways: resleeving as a form of deliberate reincarnation. Some sects might have complained about humans interfering with karma (Ob sf reference: Zelansky's "Lord of Light"), and insist on "karmically correct resleeving". Buddhism is probably even more OK with egocasting, infomorphs, AGI and cognotechnology, so it might have thrived a lot. Buddhism seems to be the largest religion among transhumanists today (after atheism and agnosticism), and it might have done well in the pre-fall world. In a post-scarcity economy it may even make more sense. Particular sects such as Cao Dai may have survived just randomly (imagine that they were in the process of setting up a habitat when the Fall struck). Japanese Shintoism also seems to be very adaptable. No real problem in acknowledging the kamis of space or AGIs, various practical issues in how to adapt very conservative traditions to an entirely new environment. But again, believers will find a way. No doubt a few ultimates have felt the appeal of Szandor LaVey's satanism (ultraindividualistic libertarianism with a strong emphasis on self-improvement and power), but I guess most find them very tacky. While most traditional polytheist religions probably fared badly in terms of believer survival, people seem to love to pick up (and sanitize) old religions. There are no doubt neonewagers and people claiming to be true Norse pagans around. I would expect some neo/techno-paganism to have survived, although greatly changed (if you have to live on Mars, you better learn to get along with Ares). Most smaller traditional religions are strongly tied to a particular ethnicity, so if that ethnicity gets wiped out they tend to disappear. But random things can happen: in my game, due to a fluke of history, there are a sizeable bunch of ethnic Maori in space. And if you have a big population, such as the post-Chinese, then the religion may be strengthened due to new needs for social cohesion (I expect a surprising amount of traditional Chinese religion in EP). Given the response to WW I and II, maybe spiritism is going to have a resurgence. If egos can be transmitted using technology, maybe they can be transmitted "naturally" too? People try to contact their lost ones using pseudotech devices reading signals in the solar wind, quantum fluctuations or unproven vibrations of the aether. Scientology is probably too top-heavy to survive, but similar self-help corporate religions will of course continue to crop up - especially since thanks to psychosurgery they might actually *work*.
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King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Pre-Fall Religons in EP
While my take on it, is that some Titan gobbled up the religious people, impersonating their god & acted out, Armageddon. Perhaps its captives are kept in a "New Jerusalem" virtual world. Perhaps this deranged titan actually believed it self to be the God in question. Only few was "spared" or eluded capture. Not all believers fell for the "Gods" propaganda & mem attack. Gods needs worshipers & bring its "worthy" people with them, if they would leave.
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Pre-Fall Religons in EP
Quote:
Only few was "spared" or eluded capture. Not all believers fell for the "Gods" propaganda & mem attack.
that brings the question if there are still survivors on Earth, how they live day-by-day life and what they believe it. look at Ergo Proxy. the Proxies are feared (or maybe even worshipped) but what are Proxies, if not Exsurgent infected people? they might not even be aware of what they carry with them I was thinking about something how does Voodoo and apparented beliefs like the Santeria, do in the Post Fall era?
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