Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and Inaccessable

35 posts / 0 new

Last post

Mon, 2010-10-18 23:10

twntysdr

Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and Inaccessable

I've been running an Eclipse Phase game for some time now. My players and I struggle with the game a great deal from a roleplaying standpoint. I don't think most people realize just how alien this transhuman world would be and I guess my imagination is just not good enough to be able to really understand and present it to the party in an enjoyable way. The more I think about post-singularity transhumanism, the more I have to admit that I just don't know what it would be like to live there. I think that this basic understanding of the setting is essential to roleplaying. This isn't Star Wars where it is basically our current setting and societal rules.... but in spaaaaace with aliiiiens! Eclipse Phase truly presents a new paradigm and there is just not enough explanation out there to help me get into the game. I have found that I cannot honestly present any stories that I know how to tell in this system without ignoring significant rules of the society or setting. Example 1: Just for a minute, seriously try to imagine a post scarcity economy. The majority of all things that happen on earth right now are determined by scarcity and need. The majority of conflicts are determined by this general human condition. What would a world without these things even look like? Example 2: The majority of modern storytelling depends greatly on concepts that are greatly limited or flat out do not exist in Eclipse Phase: religion, privacy, secrecy, individual sovereignty, the primacy and dignity of humanity, traditional family organization, nationalism, etc. The response I commonly get from my players is that the Eclipse Phase world is shallow, petty, pointless, and bleak. It is only fun to play when I ignore those things that make it unique (namely transhumanism, post scarcity, etc). It is hard to honestly engage the setting without it degrading into an exercise of unapologetic Neitzschianism....... which is not as fun as it sounds. Every time I play this game, it makes me stare into nihilism's abyss which is not really a fun hobby to be honest. Am I just over-thinking it? :P Example 3: The vast majority of human interaction is heavily influenced by biology. When you study the human body and the psychology of the average person long enough, you learn that alot of what we feel and do is heavily motivated by brain chemistry, hormones, and the way our biology perceives the world. How would a person free of those concerns behave? How would wars be fought when soldiers can just "turn off" their primal fear? How would societies operate when large numbers of them are free from sexual need and temptation? How would a non-human sentient really behave so that it doesn't come off like a human in an bird body? How would a person truly see himself stripped of biological identity? How is Eclipse Phase not a world where moral impulses are mere suggestions and vestigial elements of the past society? How would these and other questions impact a person's higher level functions? There is an endless parade of these questions which seems to make this setting very unknowable and inaccessible to my 21st century mind. I don't want to play a game where the setting is only applied when it feels cool to do so. I desperately want to understand it so that it can be played as presented, but I find that I cannot.

—

"Any mental activity is easy if it need not take reality into account." -Marcel Proust "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity... and I'm not sure about the the universe." -Albert Einstien

Mon, 2010-10-18 23:38

Sepherim

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

It is, indeed, a tough universe to portray, but I find that precisely such a thing is part of its interest. Maybe you should set your game in Mars or Luna, though, which are closer in values and such to our modern days, if you have trouble with a more "different" setting.

twntysdr wrote:
Example 1: Just for a minute, seriously try to imagine a post scarcity economy. The majority of all things that happen on earth right now are determined by scarcity and need. The majority of conflicts are determined by this general human condition. What would a world without these things even look like?

As debated elsewhere in this forum, it is not really post scarcity, but a different class of scarcity. Social classes still exist (going as far as being very very close to recovering slavery with the indentured) and zeroes are very much marginated. Scarcity depends on a lack of ressources, and though some habitats may be full of them, others may not (like Eden, the habitat I posted in the Homebrew section, for exmaple); and even when material ressources are no problem you still have to deal with obtaining the plans for what you intend to build, gathering the rep needed and favors for it, etc. It may no longer be capitalist (at least not in parts of the Solar System), but it certainly hasn't abandoned scarcity, and some things can be very expensive (like living space).

Quote:
Example 2: The majority of modern storytelling depends greatly on concepts that are greatly limited or flat out do not exist in Eclipse Phase: religion, privacy, secrecy, individual sovereignty, the primacy and dignity of humanity, traditional family organization, nationalism, etc. The response I commonly get from my players is that the Eclipse Phase world is shallow, petty, pointless, and bleak. It is only fun to play when I ignore those things that make it unique (namely transhumanism, post scarcity, etc). It is hard to honestly engage the setting without it degrading into an exercise of unapologetic Neitzschianism....... which is not as fun as it sounds. Every time I play this game, it makes me stare into nihilism's abyss which is not really a fun hobby to be honest. Am I just over-thinking it? :P

I believe that no, you are not over-thinking it, your players instead are under-thinking it. Like all good hard sci-fi, EP forces you to rethink who you are, what the world is and how it works. If they find it shallow is because they can't (or aren't interested in) analyze it and try to imagine what all those new things imply. There are lots of alternative storytelling devices (secret groups, exsurgent, etc.), and many of the old ones can be rethought into new stories that are original, interesting and maybe even help people learn about themselves (like the recently posted habitat that is of a religious kind). Nietzsche has little to do with EP unless you are playing an Ultimate, and nihilism is just a loss of time so forget about it. Just think of causes and consequences and build a solid world around them, maybe a small habitat can be a good place to start, as smaller habitats are easier to control as there are less elements in them to account for. And, if you prefer, a habitat of reclamationists or such would probably be closer to our world in values and world-perception.

Quote:
Example 3: The vast majority of human interaction is heavily influenced by biology. When you study the human body and the psychology of the average person long enough, you learn that alot of what we feel and do is heavily motivated by brain chemistry, hormones, and the way our biology perceives the world. How would a person free of those concerns behave? How would wars be fought when soldiers can just "turn off" their primal fear? How would societies operate when large numbers of them are free from sexual need and temptation? How would a non-human sentient really behave so that it doesn't come off like a human in an bird body? How would a person truly see himself stripped of biological identity? How is Eclipse Phase not a world where moral impulses are mere suggestions and vestigial elements of the past society? How would these and other questions impact a person's higher level functions? There is an endless parade of these questions which seems to make this setting very unknowable and inaccessible to my 21st century mind.

Actually, biology in human interaction is over-rated, what matters is not so much biology but what we are taught to think the biological signs (which are pretty limited and confusing) mean. Experiments in social psychology have shown that many body signs can be understood in different ways, and it is the context and culture that determine which one is the one that we choose and go along with. And most people in EP don't want to stop being human, thus haven't eliminated their feelings in any way. Even AGI's have a certain degree of feelings and nowhere it says that people in synths lack them (even if they lack the biological signs, they still can love and all that, which is quite more a psychological/cultural trait than biological signs that usually last only a couple weeks). Uplifted, probably, are the most complicated characters to portray, together with AGIs, and as such, really RPing them is complicated. I'm afraid I don't have many ideas about it, and in fact rarely introduce them in my games (I like the exotic feel to their pressence, thus they can't be too common), but usually I'd play a mix of "human intellect" with the instincts I know those races have (for example, monkeys live together in groups, while octopus' don't, so my octopus uplifted are quite more solitary and show less sentiments than monkeys). As for moral impulses, they are completely the same in EP as they are in modern times: taught since childhood. They would probably be based on different principles (human life would be less valued than cortical stack destruction, for example, as one can be replaced and the other maybe not), but would be taught at childhood just the same and people would still feel their pressure. They would as well be placed into law codes just like it happens now days.

Quote:
I don't want to play a game where the setting is only applied when it feels cool to do so. I desperately want to understand it so that it can be played as presented, but I find that I cannot.

To understand EP, to delve deep into it, requires you to leave the 21st Century mind behind. That's part of its magic. To learn of different (maybe even "alien" to us) ways of doing things teaches us about our current world and how we built it. So just go with the flow, think of actions, consequences and human perception, and all those things would start coming out one by one. And if your players can't do the full exercise, maybe you have to outline your own answers to those questions so they don't have to think about it, maybe using their muses as "tutors" on those things.

—

The mind is information... hack it! [IMG]http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j166/Sepherim/Otros/F_Rep.jpg[/IMG] +4 http://tribulaciones.es/

Tue, 2010-10-19 04:26

twntysdr

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

Sepherim wrote:
It is, indeed, a tough universe to portray, but I find that precisely such a thing is part of its interest. Maybe you should set your game in Mars or Luna, though, which are closer in values and such to our modern days, if you have trouble with a more "different" setting.

I already did this a while ago. :)

Sepherim wrote:
As debated elsewhere in this forum, it is not really post scarcity, but a different class of scarcity. Social classes still exist (going as far as being very very close to recovering slavery with the indentured) and zeroes are very much marginated. Scarcity depends on a lack of ressources, and though some habitats may be full of them, others may not (like Eden, the habitat I posted in the Homebrew section, for exmaple); and even when material ressources are no problem you still have to deal with obtaining the plans for what you intend to build, gathering the rep needed and favors for it, etc. It may no longer be capitalist (at least not in parts of the Solar System), but it certainly hasn't abandoned scarcity, and some things can be very expensive (like living space).

Right, I get that.

Sepherim wrote:
I believe that no, you are not over-thinking it, your players instead are under-thinking it. Like all good hard sci-fi, EP forces you to rethink who you are, what the world is and how it works. If they find it shallow is because they can't (or aren't interested in) analyze it and try to imagine what all those new things imply. There are lots of alternative storytelling devices (secret groups, exsurgent, etc.), and many of the old ones can be rethought into new stories that are original, interesting and maybe even help people learn about themselves (like the recently posted habitat that is of a religious kind).

It's just alot of work! :P I did have a really interesting side quest where the party found a sci-fi version of the Donner Party where a derelict ship that they found still had biomorph survivors who had canibalized themselves and each other to avoid the uncertainty of resleeving. It presented some very interesting moral discussions.

Sepherim wrote:
Nietzsche has little to do with EP unless you are playing an Ultimate, and nihilism is just a loss of time so forget about it. Just think of causes and consequences and build a solid world around them, maybe a small habitat can be a good place to start, as smaller habitats are easier to control as there are less elements in them to account for. And, if you prefer, a habitat of reclamationists or such would probably be closer to our world in values and world-perception.

I'm not talking about Nietzsche's solutions per say. The Ubermensch and master-slave moralities definately fall into Ultimate territory. I was speaking more to the problems, questions, and issues he had identified as Europe advanced into a post-modern and post-Christian culture (i.e. God is dead, perspectivism, utilitarianism, etc). Even if a guy in Eclipse Phase does not come to the answers and responses that Nietzsche (and the Ultimates) did, he still has to wrestle with the questions.

Sepherim wrote:
Actually, biology in human interaction is over-rated, what matters is not so much biology but what we are taught to think the biological signs (which are pretty limited and confusing) mean. Experiments in social psychology have shown that many body signs can be understood in different ways, and it is the context and culture that determine which one is the one that we choose and go along with. And most people in EP don't want to stop being human, thus haven't eliminated their feelings in any way. Even AGI's have a certain degree of feelings and nowhere it says that people in synths lack them (even if they lack the biological signs, they still can love and all that, which is quite more a psychological/cultural trait than biological signs that usually last only a couple weeks).

While I disagree with your abstract assesment of human behavior, you make some good points. Modern advancements in neuroscience really do lend heavy weight to the physical body in determining things like ethics and behavior. For example, a pathological liar's physical brain really does look different than someone who doesn't lie constantly. Many hallucinations and delusions come from biological defects that are much more complex than you assume. I recently saw some research that pointed out that many people with delusions lack the key triggers in the brain that indicate the difference between things that are outside stimuli and things that originate in our own head. Things like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder are not short-lived or vague and the condition is as biological as it is psychological or cultural. If you do not regularly wrestle with unwanted biological impulses that you wish that you did not have and do not diminish, then I consider you to be a particularly blessed individual. I do like your point that people in the setting do want to remain human for the most part. I think that this is something that I had not considered. I would imagine only a few radicals would truly want to be something other than what we are today. That may be a theme that I can add to help normalize the game for people.

Sepherim wrote:
To understand EP, to delve deep into it, requires you to leave the 21st Century mind behind. That's part of its magic. To learn of different (maybe even "alien" to us) ways of doing things teaches us about our current world and how we built it. So just go with the flow, think of actions, consequences and human perception, and all those things would start coming out one by one. And if your players can't do the full exercise, maybe you have to outline your own answers to those questions so they don't have to think about it, maybe using their muses as "tutors" on those things.

I totally agree. I would not be trying to make this game work for us if I didn't think that such explorations were worth all the brain cramps. Thanks for your reply. Very informative. I would like more thoughts from you and others.

—

Tue, 2010-10-19 01:39

root

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

root@Our Struggle: The EP Universe [hr] Uhh, did you mean to name this thread that way? Hitler in space? Anyway, I recognize the problems your players are having, and there is a pretty simple solution to it. Most of the system hasn't embraced transhumanism, and can be played like "today, but in spaaaaace". The Jovians, the Titanians, Venusians, basically anything sunward of Jupiter is going to have much the same mentality that we do today, but with better tech and a wider social safety net. There are nutbags and brinkers aplenty, but most people still only feel "alive" when they have a comfy morph to bounce around in, and view the universe not much differently from us now. As far as those questions about the aching abyss of the meaninglessness of life? Solve it like we do now: most people don't want to think about it, so they don't. Denial is a fantastic survival mechanism in the face of random, uncaring fate.

—

[ @-rep +1 | c-rep +1 | g-rep +1 | r-rep +1 ]

Tue, 2010-10-19 01:49

Rhyx

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

First as a general warning I mean no disrespect to you or you gaming group at all for some of the things I'm going to say. This is simply my viewpoint, take what you like from it and leave the rest. I get a feeling sometime that we as humanity right now are so embroiled in the challenges of scarcity and so focus on it that we feel rudderless in a non-scarcity environment because right now most people's only focus is to survive and have a roof over their head and food on their table. So this is where they exist and thus define themselves. Ask car companies, their every car commercial tries to define who you are. In a recent report (which I can't find) It's been said that when you ask kids today what they want to be when they grow up they simply say they want to be rich. Not to be astronauts or doctors or teachers, just rich. And therein lies the problem, in the world we live in we are so focused on the bottom line that we no longer free to dream. We dream what the economists, the music stars, the advertisement want us to dream because they promise us happiness if we listen to them. And what they are telling us is that the status quo is best. Why? Because it keeps them exactly where they are, at the top. Now why is this important to your game? Because when you remove money from the equation you find that money is in fact a unit of potential and labor. It makes others do things that you want them to do instead of them doing what they want to do. It's that simple. Potential and labor are two things that are still alive and well in EP. The world of works on reputation: What does that mean? I've been asking myself that same question and I came up with a pretty silly answer: It's exactly like high school. You have a high rep, it means that people generally like you and trust you, you have a low rep it means that either you have yet to make people trust you or that you are a pariah with an unpopular point of view. The cool kids get to go to parties and do interesting things and the unpopular kids get to sit around and wish they were them (to make a long story short). It also means that influence trafficking is also at a premium and so is having friends in high places. The way you seem to see the end of scarcity is that it is the end of ambition, which it is not because the need to be recognized and respected by your peers has replaced money. EP as it is is an intensely social game where a persons rep rises and falls in a way similar to the stock market. You do good, people like you, you screw up and you're gonna have make a splash if you want to get back in people's good graces. Favoritism, nepotism are all alive and well and incompetence might be rampant. It doesn't mean that because you are well liked or the son of someone well liked that you are necessarily skilled. This can also lead to many interesting cover ups, falsifications and blackmail. It's not that people are no longer rich, it's that rich means something else because it's not about owning stuff. Anyone can have stuff. In many ways EP is a meritocracy, you are judged by what you have done before. Thus doing things for others is vital. Maybe you spend more less time at work, but more time helping people move. Although that's a little bit untrue. If you wanted, especially in an inner system game you could easily make a game about salvagers going to derelict stations and taking all the valuable stuff back to the Hypercorps in order for them to make things. This is downplayed in the book but nonanofabricators cannot make EVERYTHING. They need base materials and things like antimatter, quantum bits, gold, radioactive isotopes are still as rare as they ever was. Those Nuclear batteries that make Plasma rifles, the nanos are not making that uranium from scratch! It still takes people to prospect the material, to mine it. The only part of the economical scale that has been truly removed is manufacturing (partially) and even that is being kept artificially alive in the Planetary Consortium by outlawing certain blueprints from being use in home nanofabricators. Also keep in mind that in a non-scarcity economy everyone gets their fair share. Let me stress that: their FAIR share. It is not infinite. This is where criminality comes in. Instead of producing money for protection rackets they will ask you to produce goods for them out of YOUR fair share and give it to them. It's still theft. Stealing is alive and well because you don't steal from pocketbooks you steal from their nanofabricator allowance. All of a sudden an emissary from the Night Cartels is gonna ask you to make him some unprogramed protean nanobots. What they are going to do with them? Who knows! All you know is that if you give them that out of your every allotment time at the nanofabricator they leave your customers alone and don't trash your place. How is this any different than a mafia guy doing his shakedown rounds today? The criminal still gets something he wants out of you that you do not want to give him.

—

[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/A_Rep.jpg[/img] 2 [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/R_Rep.jpg[/img] 7 [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/C_Rep.jpg[/img] 2
[img]http://i.imgur.com/qtBZ9.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/AT25J.jpg[/img]

Tue, 2010-10-19 01:53

root

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

root@Our Struggle: The EP Universe [hr] Oh, right, I forgot to harp on my favorite subject. There are two things that will always be in low supply vs demand: cryptographic keys, and qbits. These fundamental ingredients of secure and private communication cannot be mass produced or easily made available (by definition). This is where I start when I'm trying to figure out how something works in EP; I basically ask "What secrets does this entity absolutely need to keep, and how do they keep it secret?". Everything kind of sorts out from there.

—

[ @-rep +1 | c-rep +1 | g-rep +1 | r-rep +1 ]

Tue, 2010-10-19 01:55

twntysdr

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

root wrote:
Uhh, did you mean to name this thread that way? Hitler in space?

lol... the Hitler reference never even occurred to me. No, I was trying to communicate in the title the fact that our group (me included) are struggling with this very original setting. Thanks for the laugh.

—

Tue, 2010-10-19 02:15

twntysdr

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

Rhyx wrote:
First as a general warning I mean no disrespect to you or you gaming group at all for some of the things I'm going to say. This is simply my viewpoint, take what you like from it and leave the rest.

No disrespect taken. Good points all around.

Rhyx wrote:
I get a feeling sometime that we as humanity right now are so embroiled in the challenges of scarcity and so focus on it that we feel rudderless in a non-scarcity environment because right now most people's only focus is to survive and have a roof over their head and food on their table. So this is where they exist and thus define themselves. Ask car companies, their every car commercial tries to define who you are.

This gets to the core of why I posted this thread. The norms and rules of our society are not solid in Eclipse Phase so it is alot of work to try to imagine what it would be like. We like boundaries and when those constraints are removed there is a certain degree of disbelief, confusion, and anxiety. I think this is where the genius of Eclipse Phase lies. It forces people to think outside of the box. This is also a great challenge inherent in the setting. It is something that I think is very interesting to discuss and work out in this forum.

Rhyx wrote:
Now why is this important to your game? Because when you remove money from the equation you find that money is in fact a unit of potential and labor. It makes others do things that you want them to do instead of them doing what they want to do. It's that simple. Potential and labor are two things that are still alive and well in EP. The world of works on reputation: What does that mean? I've been asking myself that same question and I came up with a pretty silly answer: It's exactly like high school. You have a high rep, it means that people generally like you and trust you, you have a low rep it means that either you have yet to make people trust you or that you are a pariah with an unpopular point of view. The cool kids get to go to parties and do interesting things and the unpopular kids get to sit around and wish they were them (to make a long story short). It also means that influence trafficking is also at a premium and so is having friends in high places.

This is a helpful analogy. I think this high school element is why the geeks who play roleplaying games have a reactionary distaste for the system. ....bad memories. :P

Rhyx wrote:
The way you seem to see the end of scarcity is that it is the end of ambition, which it is not because the need to be recognized and respected by your peers has replaced money. EP as it is is an intensely social game where a persons rep rises and falls in a way similar to the stock market. You do good, people like you, you screw up and you're gonna have make a splash if you want to get back in people's good graces. Favoritism, nepotism are all alive and well and incompetence might be rampant. It doesn't mean that because you are well liked or the son of someone well liked that you are necessarily skilled. This can also lead to many interesting cover ups, falsifications and blackmail.

Here is the real challenge. Games tend to have two large groups of players. You have idealists who play their characters tied to a particular concept and you have mercenaries who play their caracters for victory and loot. The reputation post-scarcity economy fundamentally changes and challenges both of these foundations. To the idealist, his approach is not always perfectly translated into Eclipse Phase and, if it does translate, it certainly isn't the only right answer and might even be a minority opinion. To the mercenary, this new economy is strange and not as simple as other systems where he can easily grind his way to riches as he did before and victory is more loosely defined. I think this is why this is hard for some to swallow... because it takes a great deal of chewing.

Rhyx wrote:
It's not that people are no longer rich, it's that rich means something else because it's not about owning stuff. Anyone can have stuff. In many ways EP is a meritocracy, you are judged by what you have done before. Thus doing things for others is vital. Maybe you spend more less time at work, but more time helping people move.

This is a real challenge to our materialistic society. It's hard to see how a life without the quest for stuff is worth living. That's not a slam against Eclipse Phase... it's a slam against us. :P

Rhyx wrote:
Also keep in mind that in a non-scarcity economy everyone gets their fair share. Let me stress that: their FAIR share. It is not infinite. This is where criminality comes in. Instead of producing money for protection rackets they will ask you to produce goods for them out of YOUR fair share and give it to them. It's still theft. Stealing is alive and well because you don't steal from pocketbooks you steal from their nanofabricator allowance. All of a sudden an emissary from the Night Cartels is gonna ask you to make him some unprogramed protean nanobots. What they are going to do with them? Who knows! All you know is that if you give them that out of your every allotment time at the nanofabricator they leave your customers alone and don't trash your place. How is this any different than a mafia guy doing his shakedown rounds today? The criminal still gets something he wants out of you that you do not want to give him.

Understood. Good point.

—

Tue, 2010-10-19 02:34

Rhyx

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

actually thinking more on it I came up with a neat example: The reputation economy and courtship: So a guy wants to have a date with a well know and well respected gate crasher who's known to be fearless, beautiful and skilled. Guys are lining up, she's got a fan club on the mesh, stars in XP movies, deploys beta forks for conferences around the system. She's the IT girl of the season. No longer content with just being a fanboy our guy tries to separate himself from the pack and gives a blitz and flurry of activity, works hard in high profile and dangerous missions so that people talk about him. His reputation is on the rise. And he gets his chance via reputation to go to Venus where her beta fork is hosting a talk (because she's entirely too busy studying samples from her last expedition) He sends a beta fork over and using his rep secures a front row seat where he can make eye contact with her. She's wonders who that strange young man is and pings his mesh presence. Ohhh he has 74 Civicnet score! Hmm he might be well connected enough to get some interest or funding for her next exoplanet jaunt. They meet after the talk. They only have 4 hours before they have to remerge, they go out for some coffee talk a bit and she promises to visit him at his habitat when she can. Both forks remerge and suddenly our boy finds out he has a date with the girls of his dreams. He wants to make it special and she says she will be there in about 2 weeks. He wants to impress her with real beluga caviar from Europa...but it will take too long to get there so he has to either get some from someone who already has some (using his C-rep) or get a knock off version from the Hidden Concern some octomorph crimelords on Ceres. He opts to use his influence to try and talk to a guy who knows a guy who knows the Hidden Concern. They give him a contact in exchange for a future favor. A week and a half later he gets a little unmarked refrigerated package and knows that the Octormorphs have kept up their part of the bargain. On that fateful night there's a ring at the door, and our boy has had an AR environment custom made for maximum seduction potential. Lush carpeting, moonlight, the works. The door chimes and on the other side is a male Menton with a faux grey goatee and receding hairline. He pings her Mesh presence, it is in fact dreamgirl. Seeing his dismay she explains that the menton was the only morph she could rent that could hold her phenomenal mental powers. Our boy's plans are going downhill in a hurry. But he still invites her in. She's impressed with the decor and he hauls out the Ceres beluga Caviar as an entree. Knowing this is a delicacy her Male menton morph blushes. She tastes some on a cracker and looks at him strangely. "Your caviar has no introns and shortened telomeres, there is no way that his real caviar! You tried to give me a knock off and though me dupe enough to fall for it. I'm insulted!" Our boy stammers an apology but she leaves mumbling that this was a waste of her time. Furious she send out an XP feed of what has just occurred along with a genetic analysis of the false caviar. As news spreads of his debacle his Reputation score goes down and down and down. He becomes a mesh meme for a couple of days where people have started to say "As real as caviar" Thankfully the fad goes away quickly but the damage is done and all his hard work has gone down the drain.

—

Tue, 2010-10-19 03:18

#10

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

When considering the EP setting on the whole I think it's important to remember that, despite what "hallleluja-praise-jesus-Singularity-gonna-feed-my-babies" post humanist thinkers like to believe, Life Still Sucks Ass for 95% of post Fall humanity. Why? Because even if you sleeve everyone in Mentons Exalts and Sylphs pretty much 100% of humans can still act like Greedy, Jealous, Petty, half-tard, monkeys. The 5% that are allready sleeved in Mentons Exalts and Sylphs certainly act that way out of habit. In short Transhumans are still humans and that human condition should be familiar to your characters. Any where they go and find 3 other characters they'll probably find at least one asshole, one thief, and one whore. The circumstances of the setting don't really change anything. Having enough doesn't keep people from wanting more. Learning that bigotry is unethical and being unethical is inefficient doesn't stop the basic xenophobic drive. Having basic security doesn't keep people from trying to attain complete control. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate...blablablaotherstuffthatYodasaid.

—

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Tue, 2010-10-19 03:49

#11

twntysdr

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

...except that these circumstances do change things. That's the whole point. The human condition as it stands now is that you are born into one indivisible being with a unified body and soul. Moreover, you stay that way. The majority of the human condition is defined by classic religions and philosophies. You cannot go to a clinic to delete your memories. You cannot live out your fantasies in VR space. You cannot reprogram parts of your personality with psychosurgery. You cannot live without a body. You do not have a personal assistant living in your head. There are no copies of yourself floating around. You cannot think in an overclocked environment. You don't live forever. You are stuck on planet Earth. Most of the time, you are a slave to your biological impulses and limitations. Many of the plights of humanity are unavoidable and not repairable. Humanity is plagued by disease and malities. As I pointed out earlier, many of the "half-tard" things people do are a result of their biological composition. Many times, large portions of you attitude and behavior cannot be helped. All of these things are challenged and deconstructed in Eclipse Phase. The very human condition itself is presented as something that is subject to change. As it stands now, these things are not subject to change. So I don't follow how the game is rooted in the human condition that I am familiar with. These aren't tangential considerations. These things fundamentally change what people are and how they behave. To think otherwise is to trivialize and ignore what the setting is saying.

—

Tue, 2010-10-19 05:13

#12

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

Quote:
All of these things are challenged and deconstructed in Eclipse Phase.

I disagree. I'd argue that the human condition is amplified in EP. Everywhere you look in the solar system you see examples of humans behaving badly and usually on a grand scale.

Quote:
born into one indivisible being with a unified body and [b]soul[/b].

I'll leave you to your own opinion of whether or not anyone has a soul. I'll argue that with you somewhere else but, state here unequivocally that I believe that I don't. I do however have a mind. (Stop sniggering you damned EP eggheads! :D I've got [i]at least[/i] halfamind ) And, I agree that that my mind is inseparable from my body/ my biology.

Quote:
The majority of the human condition is defined by classic religions and philosophies.

I don't think so. The majority of the human condition is defined by biology. That biology is a response to the environment and religion is a response to biology. Religion is nothing more than an evolution of tribalism which is resultant of the biological advantages of xenophobia combined with the capability to do philosophy. Philosophy may, however, transcend the human condition. Also: simply because the religions and philosophies of EP are no longer "classical" does not make them any less fallible or more conducive to a healthy human condition. And, if you think that EP's hypercapitalism, anarchism, neo-socialism ect. aren't religions then you haven't watched any meetings of the G8 in recent years.

Quote:
You cannot go to a clinic to delete your memories. You cannot live out your fantasies in VR space. You cannot reprogram parts of your personality with psychosurgery.

First; these things are just an advancement of things we already do today with greater fidelity and resolution. Second; Most people in EP can't do this either. Simulspace and mental health care are expensive. CM machines provide neither. Just because EP has post-scarcity for basic necessities and entertainment doesn't mean that other resources also immediately available. It also doesn't mean that people who get reprogrammed do so by choice.

Quote:
You cannot think in an overclocked environment.

Meditate on the mechanics of this one for 20 minutes and see if you can avoid coming up with less than two paradox in the concept ;) (I choose to ignore them in my games because of Kewl factor)

Quote:
You are stuck on planet Earth.

As opposed to any other burning or freezing rock in the solar system? As opposed to a fabricated environment that requires AGI level intervention to maintain? As opposed to any other exo-biosphere that hasn't derived humanity? That's a fact for which I thank the great Spagettimonster every damned day. This is the environment [i]Least[/i] hostile to the human psychi and biology that humans will ever find.

Quote:
Most of the time, you are a slave to your biological impulses and limitations...many of the "half-tard" things people do are a result of their biological composition.

While it seems that you share my pessimistic view on the quality of humanity I'm not unmindful of the fact that all of my JOY is a result of my biology. Do you get one without the other? My basic argument is this: Digitizing consciousness does not change who a person is. Yes, who a person is is largely biological. If anyone thinks that uploading that consciousness is something other than an attempt to exactly emulate biology with software and hardware then I'd really like to hear your alternate paradigms. Because, I sure haven't been able to think of another way to do it. So consider, living infolife is nothing more than living an emulation of biology. Certainly it's much easier to tweek and twist a person in that state but you're still living within the basic constraints of the paradigm or you're not human at all. (I suspect that these alternate paradigms are what AGI happen to be. Nearly completely alien forms of consciousness.)

Quote:
The very human condition itself is presented as something that is subject to change.

Me, Buddha and the apostle Paul agree with you there. I think we disagree that this change, at intrinsic levels, is driven by environmental factors. (disclaimer: Often I don't know how I'm coming across when I type a diatribe like this. If I could be F2F with you all you'd see me being gregarious, enthusiastic and loud because... well that's just me. But, I think that sometimes my enthusiastic keybashing fun comes through as angry or terse. Hopefully everyone will assume that everything I say would be delivered with a hearty handshake and an affectionate slug in the shoulder. And also a creepy leer at your breasts if you happen to be a chick ;) )

—

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Tue, 2010-10-19 05:44

#13

twntysdr

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

First off, OneTrikPony, I am not offended by you or anyone else who has posted so far. I have read enough of your posts to know how you wish to come across. If anything, your screen name speaks volumes. ;) Even if someone accuses me or my party of being retards (or implies it) for not getting with the Eclipse Phase program right out of the gate, I don't really mind as long as they have something interesting to contribute to the conversation at hand. This game seems tailored to create this kind of friendly and interesting debate. I think there are real exestential challenges inherent in this game. Moreover, I think those challenges are there [b] on purpose. [/b] That said, the over arching theme of the responses so far is that there is a moderating culture of general bioconservatism in Eclipse Phase that seeks to at least immulate "normal life" even when it is no longer achieved naturally. Even the folks who are doing some crazy stuff are still holding back and at least pretending to be as normal as possible (except for fringe radicals like Ultimates and Exhumans, etc). It seems that you all are saying that, in those places where life no longer fits into what we understand it to be, the society tries to enforce a status quo anyway. That makes sense to me. I may live in a space station made entirely out of meat, but I still want basic human emotions and experiences to a large extent. Even if I live in a synthetic body, the majority of what it is like to be human is "built in" to my body.

OneTrikPony wrote:
My basic argument is this: Digitizing consciousness does not change who a person is. Yes, who a person is is largely biological. If anyone thinks that uploading that consciousness is something other than an attempt to exactly emulate biology with software and hardware then I'd really like to hear your alternate paradigms. Because, I sure haven't been able to think of another way to do it. So consider, living infolife is nothing more than living an emulation of biology. Certainly it's much easier to tweek and twist a person in that state but you're still living within the basic constraints of the paradigm or you're not human at all. (I suspect that these alternate paradigms are what AGI happen to be. Nearly completely alien forms of consciousness.)

I think this is a brilliant explination. It needs no further comment from me. I'll just present it to the party as such. My concern is what happens when the biomods make you not human as we know it. When you have emotional dampeners, pain inhibitors, and tightly manipulate your chemical systems, how does that effect behavior and self identity? ...and I would guess that a number of the behavior issues that we experience by biological and environmental flaws today would have their approximate equivelants by virtue of programing and hardware glitches. A kleptomaniac today may be that way because of brain chemestry. Removing that cause does not neccesarily remove that symptom from the human condition. It could be a result of software flaws or something else that we do not currently experience.

—

Tue, 2010-10-19 08:57

#14

Sepherim

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

Actually, I keep to my point that biology is over rated, maybe because of my sociology studies. But I'll develop it a bit more. The biological signs of hate and love are actually very, very similair, that's why the saying goes that there is a very thin line between them and one that is easy to cross accidentally. What matters to decide if you love or hate someone is perception (has he attacked you? Kissed you? Been kind? Been cool? Been an asshole?), and upon that perception we build what we believe is the feeling our body expresses (be it love or hate). This in turn gets showed in biology, which then sends new signs, and so on. There is one study in social psychology that proves that people are more akin to love and sexual relationships in gyms, because the exercise the body has done activates signs that are very similar to love interest, for example, and thus easy to mistake. And of course biology changes, but you are talking about Post-trauma stress and other diseases, which is not the usual state of mind. Like an alcoholic's liver is different to someone who doesn't drink, so too is the brain of someone with a mental problem. Question is, what comes first? To be traumatized you have to be raised in a world where that stimuli is traumatizing, instead of a one where it isn't. If you are raised since a little boy in a world where killing has no problem or consequence, probably you will suffer less trauma from participating in a war. Human perception always comes first in all that relates to the mind in my opinion, and thus conditions biology and changes it to fit. Thus a mental disorder "disorders" the brain, but first it was a matter of perception, morals, and psychology (and sociology, as social pressures, education and such have a lot to do with human perception). I'll leave the rest of topics mentioned for tonight, as I'm off to the uni. ;)

—

The mind is information... hack it! [IMG]http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j166/Sepherim/Otros/F_Rep.jpg[/IMG] +4 http://tribulaciones.es/

Tue, 2010-10-19 09:17

#15

Demonseed Elite Demonseed Elite's picture

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

I tend to agree with OneTrikPony's view of transhumanity. I've never really bought into the "Singularity will save us all" philosophy and I think Eclipse Phase pretty clearly shows a setting where the Singularity did not save transhumanity. It damn near ended transhumanity. I feel that despite all of the technological advances in Eclipse Phase, transhumans will still display many of the human behaviors we've displayed for thousands of years. From the selfishness and greed that can cause inequality even in a "post-scarcity" economy to the altruism that Firewall agents display in sacrificing themselves for the survival of the species. One bit of advice I have when trying to introduce players to this setting is to stay local. It's a rich game universe and it's very tempting to want to bounce from place to place, but that's a lot for players (and gamemasters) to wrap their heads around. I think it's easier to focus on one area and understanding the concepts of life there before jarring the players with how exotic and different somewhere else is.

Quote:
Example 2: The majority of modern storytelling depends greatly on concepts that are greatly limited or flat out do not exist in Eclipse Phase: religion, privacy, secrecy, individual sovereignty, the primacy and dignity of humanity, traditional family organization, nationalism, etc.

I do think these things still exist in Eclipse Phase, though they've changed. Religions haven't ceased to exist, and even where some have, they've been replaced by new philosophies. Privacy and secrecy are still issues, perhaps even more so than today, because of EP's pervasiveness of the Mesh and surveillance. All of those other ones up there are things that transhumans struggle with, though they may be a bit different than what we face in today's modern world. They are still the sorts of questions that shape people and their attitudes.

—

"It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." --The White Queen, [i]Through The Looking-Glass[/i] [img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_zGgz13n3uzE/TWWPdvGig-I/AAAAAAAACI8/y...

Tue, 2010-10-19 09:34

#16

twntysdr

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

Yeah, it's probably your over-specializaiton in sociology studies. ;) Here is one example of how biology totally controls behavior. When you get irritated with someone, and you feel that reaction that says "I could kill this guy" but it is just a hyperobolic sensation that you easily resist with a frustrated sigh, that was not the first impulse your brain experiences. Science has uncovered that your brain initially registers that fight or flight reflex in a more primal, rage-saturated state. The frontal lobe of your brain receives this initial rage response that would drive you to homocidal impulse and dials it way back. Without this key function in your brain, you would fly off the handle at the slightest provocation. This inhibiting part of your brain is responsible for censoring extreme behavior and making you a good little boy or girl. It puts the breaks on your initial first reaction and says "this is not the time or the place for a blood-soaked rampage" on a biological level before you are even consciously aware of it. Just as your brain processes the signals from your eyes and presents them properly before you actually "see" them, your brain processes and adjust emotions before you actually "feel" them. Sadly this is not always the case in all brains. In psychotic killers and people with a clinical inability to control their outbursts, this part of the brain is defective so that the original impulse is registered at full strength. The person has no choice but to fly into uninhibited rages that you never experience as a healthy adult. These biological impulses are so intense that they are impossible to overcome and resist through sheer willpower. Your perceptions don't enter into this equation. Most people don't want to admit it, but pretty much the only thing that seperates them from a violent felon is this biological control measure in their brains. What's even more tragic is when a perfectly healthy brain is damaged and people's personalities change overnight because of it. This is only a kind of symptom experienced in cases of frontal lobe disorder. It can also manifest as extreme apathy, attention defecit disorder, personality disorders, depression, aggressive sexual impulses, and even schizophrenia. This kind of syndrome is not just genetic. You can develop it as a result of severe head injuries. You can be a perfectly well-adjusted, moral individual one day and fall into all manner of psychosis and violence from something as simple as a bad hit to the melon. Most of your inhibitions are not really learned behavior. The learned behavior only reinforces what the brain naturally does according to its design. Alot of this stuff is wired into our brain chemistry. That is why beer does such a good job of loosening you up and getting you to betray all those social morays that you otherwise observe. As a matter of fact, they have mapped out parts of the brain that trigger "religious experiences" and can artificially create the sensation of higher consciousness and fulfillment that people feel during various forms of religious worship in the lab. It's not an either/or scenerio. Behavior is a combination of biology, psychology, ethics, free will, and social structures. One cannot discount any of these elements in determining how someone sees himself, what he believes about his world, and how he behaves. I only bring this up because biology does play a huge role in human behavior... and Eclipse Phase makes biology highly adjustable and even unneccesary.

—

Tue, 2010-10-19 11:10

#17

root

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

root@Our Struggle: The EP Universe [hr] 30 years ago, cyberpunk popped up, and the thing that was fascinating about it was the concept that even when we have enough resources, most people are still poor. Thank you William Gibson. This will always be true, because that is just how humanity acts. Sure, in EP people don't starve, and there is generally at least enough space on a computer to keep their ego in cold storage, but nothing is equal. Another facet of human nature that shows through in EP is conservatism. Even if the Jane on the street isn't a bioconservative, no one likes to switch bodies frequently, because they don't want to be forced to think about it. No one wants to stare into the existential abyss, and since humans are primarily creatures of perception, everything they do is to keep their perceptions consistent. The sheer amount of change that people can blithely ignore in an attempt to avoid cognitive dissonance is breathtaking. You can play your games out with the vast majority of the populace trying very hard to pretend they still live on Earth, and the body they are in is effectively the one they were born in (maybe with a few "upgrades"). They will try to act like this even if they are sleeved in a Swarmoid, and living in an city carved out of ice a thousand meters above the Europan sea. The same jealousies, urges, concerns, everything the same, because that's how we want it to be. This isn't true for everyone, and anyone with power won't be able to live in that illusion, but this is no different than present reality. Look around, pay attention, and you might figure out that the concerns of EP are alive an well now, but we do a damn good job of ignoring it. Oh, and twntysdr, for sparking such a lively debate: twntysdr @-rep++

—

[ @-rep +1 | c-rep +1 | g-rep +1 | r-rep +1 ]

Tue, 2010-10-19 12:29

#18

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

As you pointed out, a huge problem is the lack of available fiction on the setting. There's a handful of novels and a TON of nonfiction, but it wouldn't be enough to fill up a library, and I'm not aware of anything visual at all. And it's true that the game only really excels with a subset of human interactions - although that can be said of any game. So your goal is to find those interactions which work best in the world. Some that I've used a lot: Lust Pride Power Conspiracy Survival Horror Exploration Scientific advancement Personal development Charity Fear Ideological competition The list goes on. It also adds a few philosophical ones. Is it alright to kill someone, knowing he has a backup? Is it alright to destroy a habitat for personal gain, knowing they all have backups? What do we owe infugees? Where do we cease to be human? Cease to deserve care? There are a few issues which have changed significantly. Gathering of wealth has shifted from credits to property, especially land, or of knowledge. Secrecy has moved to a whole new level - an individual has trouble doing any action without being tracked, but when the entire STATION is part of a conspiracy, the game is on. Classic gumshoeing is difficult to set up, unless you permit new technology which leaves a hole in the traditional sousveillance setup. And you still have the question of who is in bed with who. Are the lost freighters of Al Kazaar actually veiled gifts to the ultra-Conservative, militant group attacking habitats on Mars? Is he funding these people both to give him deniable assets to commit crimes, and to justify increased security? We will never know... What are those strange lizardmen discovered around Qurain, and why do they carry a book bound in platinum, full of indecipherable script?

Tue, 2010-10-19 12:32

#19

twntysdr

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

root wrote:
No one wants to stare into the existential abyss, and since humans are primarily creatures of perception, everything they do is to keep their perceptions consistent. The sheer amount of change that people can blithely ignore in an attempt to avoid cognitive dissonance is breathtaking. You can play your games out with the vast majority of the populace trying very hard to pretend they still live on Earth, and the body they are in is effectively the one they were born in (maybe with a few "upgrades"). They will try to act like this even if they are sleeved in a Swarmoid, and living in an city carved out of ice a thousand meters above the Europan sea. The same jealousies, urges, concerns, everything the same, because that's how we want it to be. This isn't true for everyone, and anyone with power won't be able to live in that illusion, but this is no different than present reality. Look around, pay attention, and you might figure out that the concerns of EP are alive an well now, but we do a damn good job of ignoring it.

Excellent points. Cognitive dissonance really is a powerful motivator for most people. I think this understanding is helpful for those of us trying to come to grips with the ins and outs of this setting.

—

Tue, 2010-10-19 18:29

#20

Rhyx

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

I guess over time I've come to grips with the fact that I'm not really my body so this whole dissonance doesn't really affect me and hence I have trouble empathizing with people who see this as a big deal. I basically see my body as a vehicle for my brain anyway so the idea of morphs and changing morphs isn't that jarring. I'd happily slip into my worker pod to go get the groceries and then slip into my menton to do a bit of writing and then switch into my sylph when it comes the time to go to a party and do some smoozing. I am all of these things and none of them as a multi faceted individual. I've always seen my body as a tool and little more but I guess I'm a bit stranger than most because of lot of the reflections I see here seem to say that as soon as your paradigm shift you almost have to go through some kind of cognitive dissonance to survive the trauma. I mean look waaaay back we were naked monkeys who lived in caves, sure our attitudes shifted but the way I see it we are still pretty much monkeys in caves right now but with a crapload of conditioning and the difference that we make our own caves. And I don't really think that the EP universe is much different, at the base they are just naked monkeys in space that just suddenly realized that they were not really as powerful as they though they were. Who cares if that monkey is in a reaper morph or in a computer, he is still a slave to his biological impulses if only because he doesn't realize that he doesn't need to listen to them anymore. Most people do not even understand why they think what they think, they mostly repeat what someone in authority has said. So when someone mentioned that our thought patterns are created by philosophy and religion, I say an emphatic "Pffft!" That's just topping for sociological acceptance. Under it all when push comes to shove we are monkeys that run or that fight. The common man doesn't even understand his own religion but only the tenets that the religious authorities explain (for example where I'm from people say they are Catholics but the fact is that they read the bible and interpret it for themselves puts them clearly into the protestant camp...they just don't know it and take it for granted...) People go to church because other people go to church and everyone there is equally bored but all want to seem like model citizens. It gets even worst when you mix philosophy in there because if you ask the common man what the difference is between Locke and Sartre they will probably shrug and tell you to be quiet because American Idol is on!

—

Tue, 2010-10-19 19:48

#21

jsnead

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

twntysdr wrote:
...except that these circumstances do change things. That's the whole point.

Yes, and 700 years ago slavery was an essential part of most economies and 90% of the population was condemned to be illiterate farmers if society was to keep functioning. Meanwhile, famine and disease reduced average adult lifespan to the early 50s (for men), and the combination of no contraception and generally poor nutrition meant that infant and maternal mortality meant that women lived even less long and generally had even more wretched lives. As I see it, the lives of modern middle class residents of the first world are as different from the lives of the inhabitants of that world as the lives of modern middle class residents of the first world are are from the lives of average residents of Eclipse Phase. And yet, people had recognizable emotions and motives in 1300 CE - reading Chaucer makes this clear. Humans are still mostly human. They have vastly more access to information and lives that are far longer and far healther, but most people still don't have everything they want, people still get jealous, vengeful, and petty, and they still fall in love, devote their lives to helping others, or to the pursuit of some ideal. Yes, there are habitats composed solely of 5,000 forks of a single uplifted octopus and that's pretty darn alien. However, that doesn't mean that the PCs need to all be forks of the same uplifted octopus or that such characters and habitats ever need to appear as anything as mentions in some stranger's travel blog.

Tue, 2010-10-26 14:06

#22

The Doctor The Doctor's picture

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

root wrote:
There are two things that will always be in low supply vs demand: cryptographic keys, and qbits. These fundamental ingredients of secure and private communication cannot be mass produced or easily made available (by definition).

Crypto keys are easy to make. Keeping them safe is trickier. Implementing cryptosystems properly is difficult. Getting people to use them much harder than that.

—

[img]http://drwho.virtadpt.net/graphics/info_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://drwho.virtadpt.net/graphics/argo_userbar.jpg[/img] [url=https://drwho.virtadpt.net/graphics/blankbadge.png][img]http://drwho.vir...

Tue, 2010-10-26 15:12

#23

icekatze

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

hi hi Eclipse Phase really does need more stories so people can get a feel for the nature of the game world. The human brain is plastic, though not as plastic as a computer in a post-human world. There are certainly many innate tendencies that people have, but one of the primary attributes of self awareness is the ability to change the self. People with damage to their nervous system have on occasion found that through training, they can regain some or most of their former ability as other parts of the brain change their roles. People with brain damage have re-learned to walk, etc. Though this is certainly not always the case. (I got to see this first hand as my mother recovered from a brain aneurysm rupture) Someone once said: "I know that when I boil a pot of tea, thermal radiation from the water triggers nerve endings in my skin, the molecules attach themselves to specific receptors on my tongue which then send electrical impulses to my brain. I know this, but I still want tea." Eclipse Phase really does change that relationship though, whether most people want or don't want to think about it, whether they want to stay human or not. Change will happen at the speed of people not noticing it happening. Someone is late for an appointment so they decide to plug into an outlet rather than eat, someone doesn't have time for a relationship so they simulate a romantic liaison, eventually, tired of the repetition they just turn down the feelings of loneliness with the push of a button, or they buy themselves a personally tailored companion. Then pretty soon people find it hard to imagine life without cell phones, automobiles, television... er, I mean, mesh networks, far-casting and VR simulspace. Yeah... If anything, I think EP drastically underestimates the number of people that would simply retreat into a computerized fantasy world and leave the maintenance of the physical systems to automated drones. Drones who's programming makes them enjoy the work.

—

[url=http://knhauber.phpwebhosting.com/]Nothing Important[/url]

Tue, 2010-10-26 15:27

#24

twntysdr

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

Brilliant commentary, Icekatze. I agree. People underestimate the addictive nature of humans to take what's available and twist it to their own purposes. Idealism tends to break down in the practical world. We are all curved in on ourselves and few of us are brave enough to see it. I think that EP does underestimate the number of people who would just "give up" under the circumstances as they are presented. Given the technologies and situation presented in the setting, what kind of world would you see occuring? Icekatze. Care to elaborate a little more on the ideas you just presented?

—

Wed, 2010-10-27 00:05

#25

Decivre

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

The Doctor wrote:
Crypto keys are easy to make. Keeping them safe is trickier. Implementing cryptosystems properly is difficult. Getting people to use them much harder than that.

With the speed of hardware, and the massive space that data storage now has, a one-time pad shouldn't be too hard to produce and store. If two agents meet but once, they should have the processing power AND storage space to create and store a one-time key of monolithic proportions. Utilizing quantum noise, one should be able to produce a key that is perhaps a terabyte large, and should last them for as long as their extended time apart might be. Hell, even if they did have to repeatedly use the key, a massive cryptographic key should still prove a very difficult endeavor to crack. One would have to wait for the entire key to cycle through before a pattern would ever appear, which could take months or years depending on how often people communicate.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Wed, 2010-10-27 07:59

#26

Sepherim

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

Actually, not so many people would surrender if we account for two additional facts. First of, when they walk towards a depression they can always use psychosurgery in order to be cheerful again, so that should be no problem. And second, probably the only people that have been reinsleved are those useful but also those that have the will and strength to pull ahead, leaving the weak and depressed in cold storage for now. As for retreating into a virtual world, sociologist Emile Durkheim proved long ago that in times of need the rates of suicides drop even though such times would seem more appropriate to commit suicide. This is due to social pressure. Same would happen here with retreating to the mesh completely, though some may do so, many others would feel the pull of social pressure to go on working and surviving. Besides, if you are in the mesh you know all is fake, so even though it may prove a good retreating point for some, most would end up feeling all is useless there and come back to the physical world if it was possible for them. Or that or inhabit the mesh linked to the world, instead of virtual worlds.

—

The mind is information... hack it! [IMG]http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j166/Sepherim/Otros/F_Rep.jpg[/IMG] +4 http://tribulaciones.es/

Wed, 2010-10-27 09:25

#27

Decivre

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

Sepherim wrote:
As for retreating into a virtual world, sociologist Emile Durkheim proved long ago that in times of need the rates of suicides drop even though such times would seem more appropriate to commit suicide. This is due to social pressure. Same would happen here with retreating to the mesh completely, though some may do so, many others would feel the pull of social pressure to go on working and surviving. Besides, if you are in the mesh you know all is fake, so even though it may prove a good retreating point for some, most would end up feeling all is useless there and come back to the physical world if it was possible for them. Or that or inhabit the mesh linked to the world, instead of virtual worlds.

I don't know if that's totally true. A good portion of people invest a decent amount of money into online games like Farmville and World of Warcraft, without any expectation that their in-game investments have a real impact, or that they exist in any "real" way. I'd go so far as to say that the things that matter to us and reality do not necessarily ever have to coincide. In the same way that a person can become emotionally invested in a book series, campaign setting, or videogame, people can become invested into virtual realities despite knowing full well that those realities aren't "real". I think as infomorphs become more and more accustomed to their virtual lives, the largest majority would come to accept their condition as being their "reality", for better or for worse. I think those that truly reject it will be a rarity. Humans have an innate talent for adjustment.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Wed, 2010-10-27 11:16

#28

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

re: Icekatz - There are indeed two barriers to seeing catatonic/WoW people wandering all over EP. 1) Barrier to entry - 95% of the population is ashes back on Earth. Presumably, most people who are too caught up in virtual worlds are unlikely, when put under such stress, to work as effectively as other people in getting to safety. I'm going out on a limb here, but I would assume that a disporportionate number of our sedentary game-players got wiped out compared with more aggressive, self-motivated individuals. Individuals who make it up via cold storage or as infugees may find they have to work to pay for their server cycles as indentured servants, before they have the freedom to indulge again. 2) Barrier to continuance - Having a body costs money - you need to feed or charge it, store it, etc. It also is slower than an informoph. So presumably, anyone who just wants to disappear into a virtual world will do precisely that. So we probably have a large population of people who will forego their bodies all together and retreat to servers to play where, effectively, we never hear from them again.

Wed, 2010-10-27 11:35

#29

GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

This gives some interesting concepts. A habitat or mesh-game where indentures are used as NPCs.

Wed, 2010-10-27 13:49

#30

Decivre

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

nezumi.hebereke wrote:
re: Icekatz - There are indeed two barriers to seeing catatonic/WoW people wandering all over EP. 1) Barrier to entry - 95% of the population is ashes back on Earth. Presumably, most people who are too caught up in virtual worlds are unlikely, when put under such stress, to work as effectively as other people in getting to safety. I'm going out on a limb here, but I would assume that a disporportionate number of our sedentary game-players got wiped out compared with more aggressive, self-motivated individuals. Individuals who make it up via cold storage or as infugees may find they have to work to pay for their server cycles as indentured servants, before they have the freedom to indulge again. 2) Barrier to continuance - Having a body costs money - you need to feed or charge it, store it, etc. It also is slower than an informoph. So presumably, anyone who just wants to disappear into a virtual world will do precisely that. So we probably have a large population of people who will forego their bodies all together and retreat to servers to play where, effectively, we never hear from them again.

You forget that the mesh is a permanent and influential element of society. Even if such people have been pushed into an infomorph life, this does not necessarily mean that you will never run into such people ever again. An infomorph is just as much a part of society as anyone else, thanks to the mesh. In fact, such sedentary people might even find "new life", so to speak, as infomorphs... without the need to sleep or eat, and the fact that they can act so much faster than they could in physical forms means that they have more time with which to try and be productive members of society. A multitude of opportunities may open for them. Online businesses, simulspace design, and even the transaction of digital goods within a simulspace provide ample possibilities.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Wed, 2010-10-27 14:03

#31

King Shere King Shere's picture

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

I envision a common space habitat has its population mainly as infomorphs, and the indentured are the few "real" that has to share the two only biomorphs. 10 minutes later it could be a different person using the Menton, The few "real" morphs are mostly used to perform routine maintenance and maintain the sparse life-support for visitors according to safety regulations. For the outsiders it looks like its two biomorph s in a huge robotic industrial complex with most of its machines standing still, silent and wrapped in protective plastic. To inspecting or stranded visitors, they can either spend their time there either in the small cramped space that has lifesupport (essentially a life-raft pod) and... or get hooked into the virtual world.

—

[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/tc_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/exh_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/argo_userbar.jpg[/img] [i]"To find fault is easy; to do better may be difficult."[/i] Plutarch

Wed, 2010-10-27 16:55

#32

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

Decivre wrote:
You forget that the mesh is a permanent and influential element of society. Even if such people have been pushed into an infomorph life, this does not necessarily mean that you will never run into such people ever again. An infomorph is just as much a part of society as anyone else, thanks to the mesh. In fact, such sedentary people might even find "new life", so to speak, as infomorphs... without the need to sleep or eat, and the fact that they can act so much faster than they could in physical forms means that they have more time with which to try and be productive members of society. A multitude of opportunities may open for them. Online businesses, simulspace design, and even the transaction of digital goods within a simulspace provide ample possibilities.

Keep in mind, we are talking about people who don't care to engage society. The specific prompt is, people who would "retreat into a fantasy world". I have lost friends to WoW. If you set it up so they never had to eat, sleep, earn a mortgage, etc., they really would disappear forever.

Wed, 2010-10-27 17:13

#33

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

nezumi.hebereke wrote:
I have lost friends to WoW. If you set it up so they never had to eat, sleep, earn a mortgage, etc., they really would disappear forever.

The trouble is that those people do essentially have to earn a mortgage. Simulspace subscriptions are expensive, 1000 credits a month in the Inner System is not something to just cast off. Some people literally sell themselves into servitude for years to get access to a Morph that costs the same amount (Cases). So they are going to have to have some form of interaction with people. And then on top of that you have to pay habitat maintenance taxes (if the Synthmorphs have to pay so will the Infomorphs), be considered a secondary citizen (which means people could be free to add an Infolife tax on top of those), keep your hardware up to do with security patches and upgrades, deal with the general prejudice of biochauvinistic assholes (At least Synthmorphs have a body, you are just data, what rights should you have?). Life as an Infomorph is hardly free.

—

Wed, 2010-10-27 17:10

#34

root

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

root@Our Struggle: The EP Universe [hr] There are other practical reasons to retreat to a virtual world. The ability to live a different frequency would be nice. Say, for instance, that I dislike the state of the system in Eclipse Phase, but I'm not suicidal. I may spend a few centuries living on plant time, at x1/60, watching the decades go by as the busy little worker morphs make the system more interesting. Or on the flip side, if I have no skills (or a big job to do), I can live in hummingbird time at x60 and still make rent (or deadline). If I have the credits, I can stick different alpha forks at a variety of frequencies, or simply move between them as processing power gets cheaper or my workload drops. The way we interact with society and reality is so heavily influenced by the passage of time that we never even consider it; not so in Eclipse Phase.

—

[ @-rep +1 | c-rep +1 | g-rep +1 | r-rep +1 ]

Thu, 2010-10-28 04:08

#35

Decivre

Re: Our Struggle: The EP Universe is Largely Unknowable and ...

nezumi.hebereke wrote:
Keep in mind, we are talking about people who don't care to engage society. The specific prompt is, people who would "retreat into a fantasy world". I have lost friends to WoW. If you set it up so they never had to eat, sleep, earn a mortgage, etc., they really would disappear forever.

I disagree. If they didn't care to engage society, they wouldn't play a massively-multiplayer online game. The truth is that WoW [i]is a society[/i], one that exists over the net... but a society nonetheless. You may see someone who shifts their personal investment into the game as "retreating into a fantasy world", whereas I see it more akin to "switching bars and making new friends in the process".

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]