Ogliarch Motivations? | Eclipse Phase

Fri, 2010-11-26 11:07

#2

Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

Sample motivations: *Terraforming Mars/Venus *Colonizing new world and establishing a new society based on some exotic social theories *Restoration of Earth city/state/society *Destruction of rival oligarch coming from old noble line/political oligarch line *Discovering FTL drive for humanity/owned hypercorp *Creating a new off-shot of humanity based on their DNA/ideas/faction *Recovering all artifacts of extinguished nation/dynasty from Earth(for example from British Royalty, USA state symbols) *Merging with TITAN machine on oligarchs term and becoming godlike entity

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Fri, 2010-11-26 16:06

#3

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

Jaeger wrote:
Well? Their motivations? Are they setting them selves up as some kind of space king/royalty of a section of space?

What motivates rich and powerful people? In real life they tend to have surprisingly bland motivations: they like money, status and power and pursue them (with some skill, since they have ended up rich and powerful) but rarely they display the kind of interesting or extreme motivations that make good rpg NPCs. Once you have your empire it will be a full-time job to run it, and few have much time to play kings. The ones to really watch out for are their rich spoiled relatives who can be up to *anything*. Again, the vast majority are bland and spend their lives being high status, but a few have ideas. Which can be anything from religion (shouldn't we convert those heathens back to proper Cao Dai?) over practical jokes to collecting (or making) insects to having a secret superhero identity. Most have goals that are not very far-reaching, but a few do. This is where you find would-be one-man-illuminati and godkings ("When I become a transcendent exhuman I will show dad what real business savvy is!") Just remember that most of the elite are fairly boring people with boring goals. Like the rest of transhumanity. It is always the extreme people who are fun to have as PCs and NPCs and tell stories about.

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Would you allow a player to be a Scion of an Ogliarch?

Yes. In my current campaign I kind of have one (his mother is not *that* powerful, but in theory he can inherit a minor hypercorp). In this case he is a philanthropist, travelling the solar system to find worthy causes to sprinkle money and glitter on. Which is a great cover for some Firewall work. From a Firewall perspective such scions would be both tempting and problematic. They have resources and access, but they are also watched. Oversight and Ozma would not stand for having one aligned with terrorists like Firewall.

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Fri, 2010-11-26 16:42

#4

root

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

root@Oligarch Motivations [hr] Power. Everything else is merely a means or an expression of this desire. The oligarchs struggle constantly to find an edge over the other oligarchs, and then battle desperately to keep it. They don't necessarily even care how much power or wealth or intelligence they have, except as it stands relative to others. This is a sad testament to human nature, where most people would prefer to have the nicest quarters in a crapsack habitat rather than the significantly better quarters in a fantastic habitat if their quarters there are the worst in the hab. Think about this little game: You have a group of people who choose between option A or B in secret so no one knows your choice until the round is over. If everyone chooses A, everyone gets 5 points. If any one person chooses option B, that person gets 10 points, and everyone else gets 0. If more than one person chooses B, no one gains anything. When the group gets large enough, the probability of anyone getting any points approaches zero. Amongst the oligarchs, the chance of anyone getting any points is zero for a group of two or more.

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Sat, 2010-11-27 20:34

#5

Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

Arenamontanus wrote:
What motivates rich and powerful people? In real life they tend to have surprisingly bland motivations: they like money, status and power and pursue them (with some skill, since they have ended up rich and powerful) but rarely they display the kind of interesting or extreme motivations that make good rpg NPCs. Once you have your empire it will be a full-time job to run it, and few have much time to play kings.

I can think of some oligarchs that weren't/aren't bland. And remember that people in Eclipse Phase have the power to realize some immense projects that couldn't be done today-like creation of new race, or colonizing a whole planet. Looking on some real life models from our life: *William Randolph Hearst-tried to incite war in Cuba and US expansionism in former Spanish colonies. Media/Mesh oligarch trying to incite Titanian Commonwealth expansion into Autonomist Alliance or Exhuman stations beyond Saturn ? *Paul Allen-founded SpaceShipOne/PC hypercorp owner founding PC interstellar initiative? *Rothschild dynasty-fundamental in British history and Britain's war effort, establishing of Israel/ an Oligarch trying to support Reclaimer movement?

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Sat, 2010-11-27 21:49

#6

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

Extrasolar Angel wrote:
I can think of some oligarchs that weren't/aren't bland.

Sure. But how many percent of the rich people are they? Look at https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Forbes_list_of_billionaires How many of these would actually make interesting or plausible villains? Still, many of them have quirks that when combined with a sufficiently interesting motivation would make a compelling NPC.

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Looking on some real life models from our life:

And lets not forget the alumnus from Oriel College down the road, Cecil Rhodes. Founder of de Beers diamond mining, super colonialist and imperialist, tried to set up his own secret society to bring the world under British rule. "To think of these stars that you see overhead at night, these vast worlds which we can never reach. I would annex the planets if I could; I often think of that. It makes me sad to see them so clear and yet so far." They don't make them like that any more.

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Mon, 2010-11-29 05:11

#7

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

Another way of seeing things is the relative power between rich people, companies and states Looking back at the Fuggers and de Medicis, they were more powerful in many ways than most states (and the family was the company). A few centuries later, the Rotschilds were less powerful than the states they lived in. Further on, this trend seems to continue: while the Wallenbergs, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet own plenty of companies and do have plenty of influence, their power is dwarfed by the power of the state. Also, their power even over their companies is constrained: they can't do whatever they like with them. I think this historical trend is continuing. But in EP it might have reversed. The reason is the sudden collapse of the old powerful states as well as most of their successors. Left behind are tiny polities or messy federations like the LLA or MC. Meanwhile the surviving oligarchs have retained their power, and now tower over most other groups. Given time I think this will change - the Planetary Consortium and/or autonomists will grow and develop systems that hold much more power than a mere oligarch. But this era is a bit like just after the fall of the Soviet Union, and they can get away with almost anything. Oversight are quietly documenting things, waiting for the time when the knives will be sharpened. But not yet. Hmm, an idea: the PCs encounter a former oligarch. Not every powerful person made it: some had investments they couldn't save, and saw their fortunes implode during the Fall. Now they are merely rich, or even normal. How does the oligarch handle it? As some deposed Russian oligarchs by turning into an activist (against existential threats, political oppression or the Planetary Consortium)? By sinking into depression? By trying to rebuild the empire *again*? By refusing to accept anything has happened, continuing to live in a dilapidated pleasure habitat with yes-men bots and visits from the VIP beta-fork library, while their more sensible wives discreetly pawn their antiquities and sell space beyond the mansion parkland to property developers?

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Mon, 2010-11-29 10:47

#8

root

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

root@Oligarch Motivations [hr] I think an important part of what defines an oligarch is the retention of their original body. In polities where an alpha fork has as much claim to goods an property as the original, retention of the originating body is a powerful legal argument. Why should an alpha have any ownership of my property if we know which of us is a copy because I have my body and it has a sleeve? This leads to oligarchs having the unique legal privilege of free alpha forking in the inner system. Sure, they can't delete an alpha when they are done with it, so no one is likely to make a copyration that they have to support, but the advantages are undeniable. The oligarchs are also likely to be very jealous and protective of this privilege. They share it with "natural" born people, and any of the original space settlers, but marketing and harsh environments give the settlers good cause to upgrade bodies just to get by. This is especially true if they aren't aware that they are giving up any rights by doing so, so the oligarchs are likely to be quiet about this particular advantage.

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Mon, 2010-11-29 10:58

#9

Rhyx

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

Quote:
Look at https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Forbes_list_of_billionaires How many of these would actually make interesting or plausible villains?

All of them, if you push them far enough up against a wall, kidnap their loved ones as blackmail material or infect them with a compulsive exsurgent virus strain. Events make villains just as surely as baseline temperaments. :D All kidding aside a little known fact about rich people is that they are not as rich as you'd think simply because they have to keep up with other rich people. Like any other social circle, if you wanna be part of the gang you gotta follow. "Oh is that the same 200 foot yacht that we had that party on a year and a half ago, hmm you're pretty frugal. I never have my party on the same boat twice." The sheer fact that many of these people always get what they want makes them prime candidates as antagonists. I mean who is more likely to make a big deal about lukewarm soup, a well adjusted plebeian who knows that the waiter is busy or an oligarch who usually gets waited on hand and foot? The oligarchs don't have to be villains that spout tentacles, they can just be really REALLY annoying speed bumps between the PCs and what they want. That and also keep in mind that most of these people tend to think that they are above petty things like ethics and laws. I mean just today many companies see illegal dumping of dangerous chemicals in the environment as a totally legitimate means of waste management. All they do is count up the cost of what it would take to properly dispose of the material versus how much it would cost them in fines and lawsuits for getting caught dumping chemicals. To the common man this is evil, to a business this is pretty much a legitimate cost cutting measure. Take that line of thinking and apply it to anything else the oligarch or his hypercorp are doing and you have a ready made villain. This is exactly the kind of motivation that leads them to try to use TITAN artifacts as a dangerous means of fast forwarding research no matter who gets hurt.

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Mon, 2010-11-29 12:29

#10

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

Rhyx wrote:
All kidding aside a little known fact about rich people is that they are not as rich as you'd think simply because they have to keep up with other rich people. Like any other social circle, if you wanna be part of the gang you gotta follow. "Oh is that the same 200 foot yacht that we had that party on a year and a half ago, hmm you're pretty frugal. I never have my party on the same boat twice."

Also, many of them are very conventional. While fiction loves the eccentric billionaire, in reality (as told by some of my friends who regularly hobnobs with them) they are very concerned with not looking too weird. Sure, giving to charity is fine, but not a *weird* charity like the Methuselah Foundation. One reason Peter Thiel is so controversial is that he is unafraid of looking a bit weird and then using some of his resources to push his own agenda.

Quote:
The sheer fact that many of these people always get what they want makes them prime candidates as antagonists. I mean who is more likely to make a big deal about lukewarm soup, a well adjusted plebeian who knows that the waiter is busy or an oligarch who usually gets waited on hand and foot? The oligarchs don't have to be villains that spout tentacles, they can just be really REALLY annoying speed bumps between the PCs and what they want.

Especially if they don't want anything particularly cool. One wants a big area of Luna cleaned from exsurgent stuff because he simply wants more space for helium mining. Another consistently opposes legislation that would help reign in xrisks because it would raise his taxes. And one donates plenty of money to a bioconservative charity simply because she always has, and will not change her habits just because there has been a Fall. The fun part is that they leave the implementation to underlings (often in several steps), so if one of them is truly ruthless PCs can get into intriguing trouble while the oligarch is blissfully unaware and might actually say "Oh. Sorry for that, didn't intend *that*. James, tell the contractors to work with these gentlemen instead." if actually contacted - but that is impossible, since they have so efficient staff that filters out crazies, lobbyists and annoyances.

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That and also keep in mind that most of these people tend to think that they are above petty things like ethics and laws.

Actually, I doubt many oligarchs think they are acting unethically. This is rather rare in humans, since we usually are good at coming up with great rationalisations for our behaviour. And even ordinary people often think they are above the law (how many here have pirated intellectual property?) Thinking what you do is moral is no guarantee of it being nice: most totalitarian societies have stressed the need for proper moral behaviour, it is just that what was moral tended to have a few, horrifying, complications. Leaders of societies have often been more lax in their moral than their citizens, but not always - this might actually be a case where the corruption of power is a good thing. When you are powerful you realize that you can actually get the world to conform to your wishes, not the other way around. This sometimes looks like bad ethics or lawlessness. But the ones to really watch out for are the ones that make sure laws and morals fit their visions.

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Mon, 2010-11-29 12:55

#11

Rhyx

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

Quote:
When you are powerful you realize that you can actually get the world to conform to your wishes, not the other way around. This sometimes looks like bad ethics or lawlessness. But the ones to really watch out for are the ones that make sure laws and morals fit their visions.

That's the scariest thing I've read in a while, probably because it's true. I guess the part that scares me especially about the things like the illegal dumping I mentioned earlier is that many corporations, and probably the oligarchs that offer them operational guidance in many cases, can grow to see fines and lawbreaking as operational costs as opposed to a breach in the social fabric. When that happens lawbreaking simply becomes yet another expense without giving any kind of greater penalty. This in my opinion is tantamount to psychopathic behavior in the strictest sense of the word, ignoring the social mores and collateral damage in favor of self aggrandizement. You do however have a very good point when it comes to the role of an Oligarch's underlings. The Oligarch probably has enough individual wealth to keep on living comfortably no matter what kinds of situations may arise. In opposition the underling is usually wholly dependent on the Oligarch's approval in order to continue to subsist. Therefore the underling has actually more of a vested interest in doing what the Oligarch wants done than the Oligarch has in getting that need met.

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Mon, 2010-11-29 14:48

#12

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

Oligarch motivations can be all sorts of things, and there's some great examples here already. My favourites lie, however, in the extremely eccentric types. Not the "I want to rule the world!" type of eccentrics, but the "I want to build Jurassic Park" style eccentrics; the whacky old men who've earned their fortune and want to do something astonishing with their wealth. Sure, they want to turn a profit too, maybe, but mostly they want to try something that every little boy or girl dreams of but is told "You could never do it", one way or another, by grown-ups with little imagination.

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Mon, 2010-11-29 15:42

#13

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

Rhyx wrote:
I guess the part that scares me especially about the things like the illegal dumping I mentioned earlier is that many corporations, and probably the oligarchs that offer them operational guidance in many cases, can grow to see fines and lawbreaking as operational costs as opposed to a breach in the social fabric. When that happens lawbreaking simply becomes yet another expense without giving any kind of greater penalty. This in my opinion is tantamount to psychopathic behavior in the strictest sense of the word, ignoring the social mores and collateral damage in favor of self aggrandizement.

Well, social mores mainly apply between humans, not between meta-human entities. It is popular to claim that corporations are sociopathic, but the truth is that most organisations and especially nations fall into this category. While espionage is a serious crime for an individual, we do not regard nations as being criminal for having intelligence agencies that undoubtedly perform spying. Partially this is because there are few social rules on this level, partially it might be due to the existence of *different* social rules that we might not even recognize as social (international law is a very strange subject). Individuals also to some extent regard fines and lawbreaking as operational costs. Consider the calculation of a person who goes onto public transport without a valid ticket: a likely benefit, and a slight chance of a higher cost. Oligarchs are nice villains because we can identify with them. They are just like us, but more powerful. A meta-human system like a corporation or nation is less satisfying as a villain - there might be *nobody* in it with antagonistic intentions, yet the emergent behaviour can be deadly. "Strategy has decided that our next target will be Wu-Makros habitat. Please set up a team for hostile takeover, Lisa has the budget details." " Wu-Makros? Isn't that a bit cruel?" "Yeah. Nick and Shu in Strategy thought so too, but the information market was firmly optimal about it. So unless we want to explain to board oversight why we are not maximizing shareholder value, we better go for them." "That reminds me, Wang at oversight invited us over for gaming next week."

Quote:
You do however have a very good point when it comes to the role of an Oligarch's underlings. The Oligarch probably has enough individual wealth to keep on living comfortably no matter what kinds of situations may arise. In opposition the underling is usually wholly dependent on the Oligarch's approval in order to continue to subsist. Therefore the underling has actually more of a vested interest in doing what the Oligarch wants done than the Oligarch has in getting that need met.

Yes. Underlings are to be feared. While the oligarch might not *care* about the current evil plot, the underling thinks his career hangs on it and that it must be really important (otherwise, why did the Old Man ask *them* to implement it?) "Mr Ferreira, now when you have captured us, could you tell us *why* de Haan is so set on stopping us? " "I am sorry, operational security prevents me from disclosing that information." "You have no clue either, right?"

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Mon, 2010-12-06 23:22

#14

The Doctor The Doctor's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

Rhyx wrote:
All of them, if you push them far enough up against a wall, kidnap their loved ones as blackmail material or infect them with a compulsive exsurgent virus strain. Events make villains just as surely as baseline temperaments. :D

I would be more inclined to kidnap them as part of a game's plotline (obligatory disclaimer for law enforcement web spiders, yes, we are talking about a game here.), install a ghostrider module with a beta fork running in it, and send them home.. rich kids sneaking out and going on benders, and all...

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Tue, 2010-12-07 00:49

#15

root

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

root@Oligarch Motivations [hr]

The Doctor wrote:
(obligatory disclaimer for law enforcement web spiders, yes, we are talking about a game here.)

Seriously. If their web spiders use such shitty algorithms that they actually spit out results for gaming sites, I want my tax money back. fur d web spidur: ur doin it wrong, lurk moar.

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Tue, 2010-12-07 14:01

#16

The Doctor The Doctor's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

root wrote:
Seriously. If their web spiders use such shitty algorithms that they actually spit out results for gaming sites, I want my tax money back.

Never trust code written by contractors who are more worried about adhering to standards and meeting regulations than they are about writing decent code. Now, back to our regularly scheduled conversation thread, already in progress.

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Tue, 2010-12-07 17:31

#17

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

To recombine the subtread: paranoid oligarchs. "Only the paranoid survive!" And if you managed to survive the Fall, you might become even more paranoid. Not just about your own security, information hygiene and the possibility of anybody hurting your loved ones, but about ever more exotic threats. Sure, Firewall might be helpful, but they would be so much more helpful if they were *your* tool...

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Tue, 2010-12-07 19:26

#18

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

The Doctor wrote:
I would be more inclined to kidnap them as part of a game's plotline (obligatory disclaimer for law enforcement web spiders, yes, we are talking about a game here.), install a ghostrider module with a beta fork running in it, and send them home.. rich kids sneaking out and going on benders, and all...

Infecting the dumb rich kids with monitoring systems would be great for blackmail purposes, but especially if they do something that'd upset Mommy/Daddy Oligarch. For example, proving that the daughter of a bioconservative oligarch has a synth as a boyfriend, or that a Direct Action exec uses only Gorgon-brand security systems in their home. Fun stuff!

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Thu, 2010-12-09 12:24

#19

Rhyx

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

Quote:
Also, many of them are very conventional. While fiction loves the eccentric billionaire, in reality (as told by some of my friends who regularly hobnobs with them) they are very concerned with not looking too weird. Sure, giving to charity is fine, but not a *weird* charity like the Methuselah Foundation.

Case and point even the charities seem to be headed towards a standardized format. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101209/bs_nm/us_wealth_philanthropy_billion...

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Wed, 2011-01-05 20:29

#20

root

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

root@Oligarch Motivations [hr] I imagine that a number of oligarchs would want to make an empire that they can rule forever. Working to repress technological development helps keep them ahead of the curve, and thus in power.

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Thu, 2011-01-06 00:31

#21

It that must no... It that must not be named's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

This sums it all up, I believe: http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/show/5723

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Thu, 2011-01-06 05:01

#22

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

root wrote:
I imagine that a number of oligarchs would want to make an empire that they can rule forever. Working to repress technological development helps keep them ahead of the curve, and thus in power.

Of course, that means they will both be at each other's throats - they want to be ahead of the curve and stop others from developing tech. In theory they could ally, but the kind of people who want this kind of control do not play well with each other. Fun for all of society!

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Thu, 2011-01-06 13:33

#23

Jürgen Hubert Jürgen Hubert's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

Arenamontanus wrote:
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
I can think of some oligarchs that weren't/aren't bland.
Sure. But how many percent of the rich people are they? Look at https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Forbes_list_of_billionaires How many of these would actually make interesting or plausible villains?

Well, Rupert Murdoch would be on [i]my[/i] list... :p Seriously, though, there is one element that modern-day billionaires are missing: [i]They[/i] are not immortal, and they usually know it. One day, their life will end, and they can't take it with them. Thus, they either try to establish a proper dynasty with competent heirs, or otherwise build monuments to themselves - foundations, charities, or simply vast companies which will outlive their creators. The oligarchs of Eclipse Phase, on the other hand, are effectively immortal and they [i]do[/i] know it. As long as human civilization survives - or at least the part of it that has their backups - they can effectively be around forever. And some of them might indeed have been around for a long time. Remember that person from [i]Gatecrashing[/i] who was born in 1983? If the current year is indeed 2143 (as suggested in another thread), then people who are 160 years old might not be too uncommon, and oligarchs were probably the first people who could afford life extension treatments. So the oligarchs will have to consider what to do throughout the eternity that faces them. Sure, some of them will simply continue to struggle for power, status, wealth, and influence - but it's not inconceivable that the rat race might lose its luster after a century or so. After you have accumulated wealth more than any Transhuman but a few thousands of your peers, what else is there to do to distinguish yourself? Usually at this point (if not earlier), oligarchs will probably start some [i]interesting[/i] hobbies and long-term projects... And as a side note, as they are used to long-term planning and securing their own survival - and throwing significant resources behind these efforts - oligarchs might very well be major supporters of groups like Project Ozma [i]or[/i] Firewall. After all, if Transhumanity goes extinct, then so will they...

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Fri, 2011-01-07 07:49

#24

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Ogliarch Motivations?

I had an interesting NPC pop up in the game yesterday, and I was surprised how much she scared the players. She was an async black sheep of one of the oligarch families, leading a Barsoomian terrorist group. She didn't have any obvious wealth, but she had a bit of style and a bunch of loyal and ruthless idealists at her command (and she played a mean game of "Global Domination" from the Never Say Never movie). As opponent NPCs go, she was by no means an enormous threat. Yet the idea of terrorists being led by somebody with her style, possible competence and ability really scared at one of the players enough to launch into a *really* suicidal attack. I think "oligarch" is an excellent word for making wealthy people into monsters. Regardless of who or what they are.

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