[To: EcoWave] [From: Khünbish neOdo] [Location: Odoist Habitat One, Jupiter Trojans] [Subject: Re: Odoist Preservationist Cookbook - Preface] [Rep score: 80]

Xahn Borealis wrote:

But we're already on Mars and Venus and Titan and Europa. Where would you suggest we go? Into space habitats? I suppose you're going to build them yourself? I've spent 9 years building habs and only ever seen two finished, all for the right to my own flesh with my own lungs which breath this beautiful nanofabbed air. I'm not giving any part of that up just because some treehugger says planets are sacred.

Spoken like a true macro-virus that you are. Why, indeed, would you leave the host that will feed you until you discard it like we did Earth? Would a biological virus strain leave its host because of 'consciousness' or 'respect' for what the host is, and more importantly, the potential that the host has? No. It wouldn't. And this argument that building space habs is too inefficient is rather hypocritical; when you build orbital mirrors to heat Mars, drag icebergs from the Outer System to feed Venus with oxygen, genehack the European native life to suit your petty little transhuman needs. Saying that building habs in space is a chore, after all that your Terragenesis corp-zombies and Barsoomian nanoecologist 'rebels' do to terraform; it's a really fun lie to throw in the face of the tree-huggers. I do not want to insult you. But I somewhat doubt you could be made to realize what your petty feelings of possessional pride do to beings that cannot fight back; you being drown in the mindset of a planetary conqueror, the owner of the soil and the atmosphere and the metal shells you've built around yourself. The moment you realize you don't own anything, not even your meme-ridden thoughts, is the moment you'll be free.

Xahn Borealis wrote:

Earth grew us as part of its ecosystem, we ARE the Amazon and the Mediterranean and the Yangtze. (Some of us are actually whales and ants too, but that's beside the point.) We have the capability to terraform worlds better than Dear Mummy Earth ever could. I've never seen a transhuman nanoswarm pollute atmospheres or choke pwecious widdle birdies. (And you don't need to tell me what TITAN nanoswarms can do. Believe me.)

The polution mentioned in the preface was speaking about our predecessor, the humans. I don't need to speak about what we'd done to Dear Mummy Earth - you can look through a Lagrange station and see for yourself. There's no argumentative proof that I can offer and that can beat that sight. And again, you mention our capabilities to 'terraform', but building space habitats is out of our reach. It's too complicated for the powerless little fragile transhumans. Oh yes. Indeed. Have you ever seen Locus? The throngs that live in its confines? Have you ever seen Extropia? Nova York? OH1? I'm not talking that we should live in some catbox brinker cluster habs. We can build cities that overshadow your Noctis-Qinajiaos or Elysiums far from the gravity wells of Mars or Venus. We can, but we won't. Because we are the conquerors. We are you. Interestingly, you again mention what trasnhumanity can do; but only a few lines above, you were whining about the 'difficulties' of hab construction in space. Really, what are we, the fragile children of Earth lost far away from home or mighty conquerors of Sol and the exoplanets?

Xahn Borealis wrote:

I'm not forgetting our home. I'm not going to let someone else tell me what sort of bed I can sleep in, or what I can or can't eat, and I'm not letting you tell me to stay in some tincan hab so we can watch the pretty bugs eat each other on OUR planets. And that goes for you AND the Planetary Consortium.

Oh. You misunderstood me. I'm far from telling you what sort of bed you can sleep in. But, hey, it's not like you chose that bed for yourself, did you now? I'm just trying to offer you a perspective you might've never imagined existing. If you do as much in return, I'd be more than grateful, because this fascist planet ownership drizzle is old as tweencen Earth. Just sayin'.

nick012000 wrote:

Also, LOL bioconservatives and enviromentalists. I can't be bothered reading your drivel, so I'll just call you both and be done with it.

Well, I guess there is a purpose in using bombs in communicating with some people.

root wrote:

root@Odoist Preservationist Cookbook [hr] "What's wrong with being a virus? Is a virus not a form of life? Why protect some types of biodiversity while demonizing others? There are functional reasons to do as you suggest, but your arguments are based solely on pathos, and so won't sway anyone of a logical nature, or anyone following an ideology. If you were to clear up some of your arguments, it is possible that I could be lead to agree with you."

"What's wrong with being a virus? Is a virus not a form of life? Why protect some types of biodiversity while demonizing others? There are functional reasons to do as you suggest, but your arguments are based solely on pathos, and so won't sway anyone of a logical nature, or anyone following an ideology. If you were to clear up some of your arguments, it is possible that I could be lead to agree with you."[/quote] "A flawed analogy. A figure of speech. Rhetorical play of words. Interesting, that meme-eating sloths analyze a preface to a book like it's some damn scientific article. Like it depleted the whole idea behind planet preservation. But, I agree with you. The preface and the introductions of the book are the pathos (hey, we live in the world that we live), but there's some logos in there too. Transhumanity is not a virus. It's an existential risk, to everything surrounding it and in the end to itself too. You don't write a book like this with a preface looking like a research paper in formal logic, now do you? But the virus-host analogy has its limits, especially when examined more carefully. If a virus could destroy a whole biosphere (like, lets say a supernova), we'd be that. Now, come to think of it, we're more like a supernova. A ticking bomb. If we blow up in our own solitude, lost in the desert of space, we'll end up killing only ourselves. Boo hoo. If we end up blowing up surrounded by life, we end up wiping out everything that surrounds us. I don't have anything against viruses (well, I do if they end up killing my sleeve or making me spend time in a healing vat, but not on the crusading 'lets wipe them out' level). After all, as you've said, they're life too. But we're far more deadly than a simple virus. We're the terraformers."

root wrote:

root@Odoist Preservationist Cookbook [hr]

bakho wrote:

"You don't write a book like this with a preface looking like a research paper in formal logic, now do you?"

"You certainly could if you were writing it as a formal logic argument, but I take your point. I am overvaluing the logos side of an argument because I prefer arguing on my turf, so you are more than correct to chastise me for insisting on an advantage. We'll play by pathos. "As a meme-eating sloth, my hearing is bad, my eyes are weak, and I grow my own food on my stomach. In fact, as a meme-eating sloth, my greatest advantage comes from my own ineptitude. You see, my senses are so very bad, move so slowly, and my thoughts are so glacially slow, that predators misidentify me as part of the tree branch I am hanging from. The sloth is the mighty king of the jungle, and has the prehistoric monster of an ancestor to prove it. "If I were to take the analogy of a sloth to the realm of civilization, this sloth is pretty much the living style you are suggesting. We hang out in space and move really slowly, grow our food on our fur so we just have to lick out stomachs to eat, and chill out for, like, evar. We even had a monstrosity of an ancestor, if you want to torture the analogy to get a little more out of it. "So, I submit to you: your perfect EcoWave civilization bears a striking resemblance to a tree sloth. No disrespect to any uplifted tree sloths."

"Oh. If tweencen American 'culture' didn't do that to us, I doubt moving our households to zero gee would. But point taken. Luckily, I doubt the hyperpreservationist agenda will ever result in a a monumental and perfect EcoWave civilization. That's an oxymoron in my book."

"I don't know. You tell me. I never had a good grasp of all those -isms most transhumans hold dear to...but I know I've been labeled as an adherent of hyperpreservationism. I guess preservationism doesn't cut it anymore. We've went radical. Oh no. What would mother say?"

Xahn Borealis wrote:

Wait, thermobaric charges? Was that you on Vo Nguyen? You TITANfucker, you set back years of research and delayed 3 Earthward expeditions by fuck knows how long. Let me tell you what sort of person I am. I'm a survivor. I survived the TITANs and their nanovirii, the Fall and all the skronked-up wars we waged on each other, and the Planetary Consortium, who lovingly [b]spaced[/b] me rather than let some cheap piece-of-shit breathe their precious air. I nearly asphyxiated with nothing between me and the burning Earth, so don't tell me to stop indulging nostalgia, you fucking neoprim.

I wasn't involved in the particular incident, but I'm familiar with the attack. Our primary targets are not reclaimers, or ever will be. We're not neo-primitivists, though in some aspects, I'm in solidarity with their agendas (not all). And, for what you call terrorist acts that are committed by Odoist freedom fighters - we usually try to avoid damaging or destroying morphs. Infrastructure is our primary target. But, I repeat, we have never acted against Vo Nguyen, at least not as the Odoist movement, neo-primitvitist members excluded.

Xahn Borealis wrote:

I'm a reclaimer because Earth should be ours, and mine, and yours, not the TITANs', and not the Planetary Consortium's. It is not a symbol of what we are, it's a symbol of what we could be. A species with a homeworld, we've earned and fought for. It is also a gold mine. I would put rep on the fact that well over 99% of morphs in the solar system right now can breathe oxygen. And where is that STILL found, and in abundance?Living space is one of the most expensive things in the inner system for those who can't build our pretty space habs, and the planets are what we need. If we go on terraforming planets on both sides of the Pandora Gates, millions of infugees and clanking masses can be reembodied in flesh of their choosing. Can you promise the same for the destitute, terrorist? And one more thing. If I ever see you in the LLA again, your stack is mine. You're just lucky I didn't have to resleeve, I was BORN in this morph, and I don't intend to die in it or any other for that matter, especially not by your hand.

Terrorism, contrary to popular belief, is not our main objective. It's just a side job. We're builders first, but when you cannot argue your way into stopping your hpyercorporations from terraforming, you use other avenues of disturbing their activity. And I'm not using euphemisms. We destroy. We kill. Sometimes even those who have nothing with it, and would in some way join our cause. I know that, and I will have to live with it for as long as I live. I know that terrorism will never stop the terraforming projects on Mars, Venus or Europa, or the countless exoplanets. But it will slow them down and that may mean something in the future of our struggle. As for living space and the poor destitute - that's not a problem of oxygen, ecology or technological capabilities of building. Now, in 10AF, that's a problem of your fucking economy in the Inner System. Of course your people live like trash and are treated like trash - but that's because it's not in the corporate interest to house and offer those people the necessities of basic transhuman life. It's much more profitable to keep them to heel, indentured, poor, stricken of their freedoms or even their bodies. That's the way vertical possessional bureaucracies work, and your 'cyberdemocracy' is no different. I'm not saying they're doing this on purpose (I don't know if they are), but that's the way things work when your economic model is build on haves and have-nots. That's your responsibility and mine to change. So don't whine to me about all the poor clanking masses in Lunar cities or Martian souks - I've been there, talked to those people, organized syndicates and riots, fought with them and died there. And then, I've bombed them. You can call me a monster - but what are you? When you whine and stomp your futile little feet over a dead planet when your fellow transhumans are living like shit. I ask - what are you? Hell, I've given my body to the infugees that managed to reach OH1. The body I was born with, and here you threaten me with murder because your poor little sleeve was almost murdered in a terrorist attack? Well, I can only say, fuck you. In the end, the only thing I can say - you're not my enemy. Not ideologically or in any other way. I do not wish you harm, or will I ever do you harm if I can help it. Your Inner System Terragenesis, Ecologene, Pathfinder, and a whole swarm of other slave run terraformers and exploiters and the people who run them are my opponents. Heck, in a different universe, I'd consider you an ally. And you me the same. [OOC: Of course, it's all IC fun. And it is really fun, if I can add. I'm writing, as said in the first post, from the perspective of Khunbish neOdo, an OH1 Odoist. There's a short snippet of her biography at the Darkcast entry on OH1, and some of the terrorist acts she was involved in. And as it's an IC discussion, feel free to act in any way your character would - I will try to do the same!]

I'm not sure if I should even comment on that. One would think that spam-filters in 10AF would be some top notch shit. Guess not.

It's not about the astronomical definition of planet. We just use the general term 'planet' because they more often host lifeforms or potential lifeforms. If an asteroid had an ecosystem, I would protect it as fervently as I protect Europa nowadays.

WhatThePhysics wrote:

Venus lost its chance to produce a natural ecosystem, and so did Mars. Mars might've been able to redevelop life in the next few million years if we left it alone, but there's also the chance it wouldn't have. Europa's natural life is pretty limited as it is, and any possible changes to it or Jupiter's orbit in the future could even lead to the moon's destruction, not necessarily the formation of a more complex biosphere. Titan's like Europa, minus the presence of natural lifeforms in the present day.

One would think that specist perspectives would die off with the advent of transhumanism, but it seems to me that we're still more humanist than anything else. And I don't mean it in a good way. By definition, you assign more value to some ecosystems or lifeforms - as in, we can lose the primitive ones because they anyways don't stand a chance of intelligence or a of a level of complexity that you would find a satisfactory criteria for survival. And - Mars has life. Just not the type you would consider saving. Which is a case in point.

WhatThePhysics wrote:

Exoplanets can be in similar situations as the above worlds. The existence or potential for (complex) life does not bring with it any objective, ideological mandate to sustain their preservation. All stars eventually go nova, or bring upon their satellite worlds conditions that would make them uninhabitable to life as we know it. Why should we allow these resources to progress along their currently-defined paths of destruction, when we could utilize the value they presently or potentially possess?

Just switch your word resource for profit, and we're on the right track. And again, we're still ready to gorge on everything in our way just in the name of sacred progress. And then you call me a meme ridden freak? What is progress? Another development of TITANs? Another loss of billion lives? Another planet destroyed, with billions and billions of creatures dying without ever taking part in anything that led to their death. If you want to talk about innocence lost, don't talk to me about transhumanity.

WhatThePhysics wrote:

You're just letting them go to waste, because you're a carrier of the "we're a species guilty of sin" meme, and don't want another singularity to happen. I hope you realize that the Dysonian-Preservationist fantasy you're proposing does not prevent that sort of scenario from occurring.

The problem isn't that we're guilty of sin, but that we're capable of it and still going in that direction. And, again, you're making the transhuman future the centerpiece object of any philosophy or ideology or meme or whatever you call it. I'm not talking about transhumans here, primarily. I'm talking about everybody else.