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Shard Pistols / Shredders - Too much AP?

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Jet Black Jet Black's picture
Shard Pistols / Shredders - Too much AP?
Yesterday, my players and I had a small discussion about shard pistols and shredders because we think they are, basically, too good to be true. Shard weapons are already quite powerful because of the + 1d10 DV at short range, but those -10 AP on top of it is a bit too much. We feel that railguns and HEAP warheads should be the weapons of choice against heavily armored opponents. We have decided to lower all shard weapon's AP to -4 and see how it works in play, but I would like to know if we missed something. Do you feel that the values are balanced? Is there a reason why shard weapons are seemingly just plain better than more expensive railguns and seeker weapons? Thanks in advance!
[i]"You're gonna carry that weight"[/i]
LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
A Shard Pistol has a DV of
A Shard Pistol has a DV of 1d10+6 and -10 AP, for an average effective DV against armoured targets of 21.5 DV. At close range, this becomes effective average 27 DV. A Shredder has a DV of 2d10+5 and -10 AP, for an average effective DV against armoured targets of 26 DV. At close range, this becomes effective average 31.5 DV. (This is, on average, not enough to harm a Reaper) A Medium Pistol has a DV of 2d10+4 and -2 DV, for an effective average DV against armoured targets of 17. An Automatic Rifle has a DV of 2d10+6 (I could have sworn it was 2d10+7...) and -6 AP, for an effective average DV against armoured targets of 23. Railgun versions of these will have +5 average effective DV against armoured targets, making that 22 and 28 respectively. This makes a Medium Rail Pistol the better tool for fighting well-armoured targets than the Shard Pistol. A Rail Automatic Rifle (which is probably not rifled...) is worse for fighting well-armoured targets than the Shredder, even if the RAR is loaded with AP ammo. (Fun fact: in EP, AP ammo is worse against armoured targets than hollowpoint ammo...) However, this is a) only at close range b) only when compared to plain, boring kinetic ammo c) only against well-armoured targets At longer ranges, the effective average DV of shard pistols and shredders drops by 5.5 DV, which significantly reduces the comparable effectiveness of Shard Pistols and Shredders compared to pistols and automatic rifles; at longer ranges, railguns are more effective at dealing with well-armoured targets; a Medium Rail Pistol has 0.5 more DV than the Shard Pistol, and the Rail Automatic Rifle has 2 more DV than the Shredder. At longer ranges, a normal Medium Pistol and a normal Automatic Rifle firing Reactive Armor Piercing or Biter ammo will have the same or a greater effective average DV. Against targets with less than 10 Kinetic Armor, the effectiveness of Shredders falls rapidly; against a non-armoured target, the Shard Pistol deals a pitiful 1d10+6 (11.5) to 2d10+6 (17) DV; at longer ranges, easily beat by the Medium Pistol (14), and at closer ranges easily beat by a Medium Pistol firing Biter (19.5) ammunition. This likewise applies to an Automatic Rifle and the Shredder, where the Shredder manages 2d10+5 (16) to 3d10+5 (21.5) DV - easily beat by the Automatic Rifle (17) firing Biter or Hollow-Point ammo (22.5). Shard Pistols and Shredders are intended to be effective against armoured targets: "These micro flechettes are very good at penetrating armor, but they do not disperse kinetic energy well and so do not cause as much tissue damage as kinetic weapons." and this they excel at, but against fleshy targets at medium range or more (which is only [i]ten[/i] meters or more), they're generally inferior to normal firearms, and at medium range, rail weapons with AP ammo is more effective than Shard Pistols and Shredders against well-armoured targets. This means that Shard Pistols and Shredders are only "plain better" at ranges of less than 10 meters, which is not exactly the [i]sine qua non[/i] of combat, outside of, perhaps, tin can habitats. Additionally, HEAP is always better than flechette weapons, unless you're using micro-sized weapons. This means that unless you're at "reach out and touch them"-ranges, you'll probably want to use railguns loaded with AP and explosives anyway... Personally, I see the real problem as being that Shard Pistols and Shredders have such a narrow niche there's almost no reason to ever use them; the opposite problem of what you seem to be having.
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CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Praise be to LatwPIAT, for
Praise be to LatwPIAT, for making the weapon math posts so I don't have to. Though there are a few issues with weapon balance in EP (Full Auto being fairly weak, particular ammo types being sub standard), Shredders are not one of those issues. They are great if you can be sure you will be up against fairly well armoured enemies in very close combat. Otherwise not so much. They are the games equivalent to (TV/movie) shotguns.
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Jet Black Jet Black's picture
Interesting.
Interesting. Thinking about it, every combat encounter we have had so far took place in cramped quarters (a back alley and an abandoned helium-3 harvester, mostly). In those circumstances, the shredders were absolutely devastating! The players were rolling up to 6d10s for damage (2d10 + 5 base DV, + 3d10 for full auto, + 1d10 for being closer than ten metres). Even a rather durable, heavily armored Daytia synthmorph got down within two rounds of combat. Anyway, the characters are now on Earth, in the ruins of London. I guess the next combat encounters will take place at much longer ranges.
[i]"You're gonna carry that weight"[/i]
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
Shredders are horrible in
Shredders are horrible in close range, no doubt about it. I figure most people will look at you funny if you walk about with a shredder on you though. Depends on where you are of course. With smartlink and aiming you'd be at 100. Technically you're always better off using bursts than full auto, if you have a good skill. If you hit with both attacks, in your example, you'll have rolled 8d10 of damage dice instead of the 6. It's a bit of a gamble but usually pays off if you have say 60 in base skill, are sleeved into a ghost and have shredder as specialty. I did rule away the "attack with many hands at the same complex action" rule though. It just became so over-the-top silly when a character could dish out 16d10 +20 +MoS damage per complex action (against non heavily armored opponents). Somehow I never got that rule to make a lot of sense.
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thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
Lorsa wrote:Technically you
Lorsa wrote:
Technically you're always better off using bursts than full auto, if you have a good skill. If you hit with both attacks, in your example, you'll have rolled 8d10 of damage dice instead of the 6. It's a bit of a gamble but usually pays off if you have say 60 in base skill, are sleeved into a ghost and have shredder as specialty.
There is an exception. 6D10 is better than 2*4d10 if the target has heavy armour (heavy being defined relative to your AP) of cause if this is an issue for you with a shredder your probably shooting a light tank.
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
Shard pistols have 100 rounds
Shard pistols have 100 rounds in them and can be coated with toxins/drugs too. I find shard pistols and wrist seeker launchers to be just about the best weapon combo there is (size small). Two gun fu with a pair of shard pistols is usually better than one shredder (and more concealable) damage-wise and has 20x the ammo capacity.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
CodeBreaker wrote:Praise be
CodeBreaker wrote:
Praise be to LatwPIAT, for making the weapon math posts so I don't have to. Though there are a few issues with weapon balance in EP (Full Auto being fairly weak, particular ammo types being sub standard), Shredders are not one of those issues. They are great if you can be sure you will be up against fairly well armoured enemies in very close combat. Otherwise not so much. They are the games equivalent to (TV/movie) shotguns.
EP in general is not a balanced game. Between simulspace time acceleration, forking, and equipment damage per action optimization and action economy are just out the window. A single character can become an army on the cheap. The terrifying part is that EP, like life, just isn't fair.
OpsCon OpsCon's picture
Quote:
Quote:
Two gun fu with a pair of shard pistols is usually better than one shredder (and more concealable) damage-wise and has 20x the ammo capacity.
Except the Shredder is also not called out as two-handed, so by the rules it's not. So, yeah, the Shard pistol is a lot more concealable, but you can use two Shredders. Bring a mop.
LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
nerdnumber1 wrote:EP in
nerdnumber1 wrote:
EP in general is not a balanced game. Between simulspace time acceleration, forking, and equipment damage per action optimization and action economy are just out the window. A single character can become an army on the cheap. The terrifying part is that EP, like life, just isn't fair.
That doesn't, necessarily, mean that we shouldn't try to balance it when these so-called realistic unbalances distract from the fun, actual realism, or playability of the game though. A [i]realistic[/i] approach would be that even tiny wounds could kill or maim for life through blood loss, nerve damage and broken bones, but that's not necessarily fun to play for the players who get hit.
CodeBreaker wrote:
Praise be to LatwPIAT, for making the weapon math posts so I don't have to. Though there are a few issues with weapon balance in EP (Full Auto being fairly weak, particular ammo types being sub standard), Shredders are not one of those issues.
Enjoy it while it lasts. :P I found EP's combat system to be too unrealistic for my tastes, so I'm reverse-engineering [i]Phoenix Command[/i] in order to convert the weapons over to a system where I can feel certain that the weapons do what they're supposed to do when they hit someone. (Except ricochet off the inside of a human skull or sever limbs, which it sadly doesn't model... but then neither does EP) - and then because PCCS is a poor system, I need to convert it to another system that's actually playable... Though I'll probably keep making them for the foreseeable future, since it's one of those things that are both easy to do and provide insight into what second-order effects exist from EP's mechanics.
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NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
OpsCon wrote:
OpsCon wrote:
Except the Shredder is also not called out as two-handed, so by the rules it's not. So, yeah, the Shard pistol is a lot more concealable, but you can use two Shredders. Bring a mop.
Missed that. It also means rules as written you can use two submachine guns.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
LatwPIAT wrote:nerdnumber1
LatwPIAT wrote:
nerdnumber1 wrote:
EP in general is not a balanced game. Between simulspace time acceleration, forking, and equipment damage per action optimization and action economy are just out the window. A single character can become an army on the cheap. The terrifying part is that EP, like life, just isn't fair.
That doesn't, necessarily, mean that we shouldn't try to balance it when these so-called realistic unbalances distract from the fun, actual realism, or playability of the game though. A [i]realistic[/i] approach would be that even tiny wounds could kill or maim for life through blood loss, nerve damage and broken bones, but that's not necessarily fun to play for the players who get hit.
CodeBreaker wrote:
Praise be to LatwPIAT, for making the weapon math posts so I don't have to. Though there are a few issues with weapon balance in EP (Full Auto being fairly weak, particular ammo types being sub standard), Shredders are not one of those issues.
Enjoy it while it lasts. :P I found EP's combat system to be too unrealistic for my tastes, so I'm reverse-engineering [i]Phoenix Command[/i] in order to convert the weapons over to a system where I can feel certain that the weapons do what they're supposed to do when they hit someone. (Except ricochet off the inside of a human skull or sever limbs, which it sadly doesn't model... but then neither does EP) - and then because PCCS is a poor system, I need to convert it to another system that's actually playable... Though I'll probably keep making them for the foreseeable future, since it's one of those things that are both easy to do and provide insight into what second-order effects exist from EP's mechanics.
Realism is extremely difficult, if not impossible to replicate in a game, especially one using things that aren't in reality (like sci-fi weapons, etc.). Exactly what a bullet will do to a human body is very chaotic and relies on a number of factors beyond the purview of a game (no to mention what a maser will do to a genetically engineered humanoid morph). And at a certain point of looking through injury statistics for realism and creating a d1000 table, you figure that realism should come second to play-ability. I really don't want to roll on the nerve-damage sub-table of the medical-complications chart after every turn. Basic biomods (which, apparently, can allow you to regrow limbs very slowly) and healing vats allows us to ignore some of the long-term complications, at least.