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No success on Success Tests? Running low on Moxie?

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Mon, 2010-10-25 13:44
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nanit nanit's picture
No success on Success Tests? Running low on Moxie?
Hello everybody! I have run my first few Eclipse Phase sessions on pre-Fall Earth. But every time the setting became a bit dangerous my three PCs spent the most of there Moxie points in a single scene. The problem is that they failed more success tests than they won, even if they call themselves “professionals” in the particular skill (skills between 40-50 see also EP Core Rules pg. 174). Opposed test are less a problem because if both fail I can let them roll a second time. Are the skills of professionals really that bad in real life? For comparison: In Shadowrun 4 a “flat” with an average attribute of 3 and a professional skill of 3 have a chance of 64.88% to succeed on a average threshold of 2. So I'm going to give my PCs and NPCs a positive modifier of 15% on average tests. But what's your opinion on this matter? 1. Are you not interested in statistics and tell me I should make more role-play then roll-play to conserve moxi? 2. Do you tell me transhuman doesn't mean super hero and my PCs shouldn't call themselves professionals in 10 different skills? 3. Do you want to ask me who's playing still Shadowrun, because Eclipse Phase rules are much more realistic as they are? 4. Or do you say I have a point and transhumanity deserves more than a 50% chance to survive?
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Disclaimer: English is not my native tongue, so feel free to help me improve.
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Mon, 2010-10-25 14:16
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: No success on Success Tests? Running low on Moxie?
There are a few things about success rates in Eclipse Phase that you really have to take into account. Number One, while a skill score of 50 is indeed a professional level, remember that most tests that such a professional would be taking would be Simple Success tests, and not normal rolls. Normal rolls are supposed to be reserved for tasks where a risk of failure is high, and the consequences of such a failure are just as high. As such when someone with a skill score of 50 goes into such a task they are still going to fail a fairly large percentage of the time, as it should be. Success rolls are supposed to be difficult tasks, things that the characters struggle with. Number Two, remember that a skill score is only one facet of being competent. Professionals are also going to be relying on getting as high a bonus as physically possible. Lets say you are in combat, and you are wanting to shoot someone. You have a Kinetic Weapons skill of 50 (Which is fairly high, the kind of skill level a grunt soldier might have). That soldier should also be – Using a smartlink (+10), Aiming (+10 or +30 depending on how well they are aiming), Using their Muse to help aim (+10 from teamwork). If they are using a normal rifle and not a railgun they can also – Accushot to negate any range modifiers, use Homing rounds (+10) and use Zero rounds (Cumulative +10). So with very little effort at all (Everything bar the specialized ammunition should basically be used all the time when shooting) you can get either +30, +50 or +60 to every single shot. The d100 system depends on people hunting for modifiers to remain balanced. If you are not looking for them you are going to fall behind. Number Three, a lot of skills that are not done in combat are task actions. Task actions are, essentially, impossible to fail at simply because modifiers are cheap to get and you can take your time to rack them up even more. If a person is finding they are failing at task actions a lot it is because they are not managing their time properly and need to slow the task down.
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Mon, 2010-10-25 17:50
Wyldknight Wyldknight's picture
Re: No success on Success Tests? Running low on Moxie?
CodeBreaker wrote:
That soldier should also be – Using a smartlink (+10), Aiming (+10 or +30 depending on how well they are aiming), Using their Muse to help aim (+10 from teamwork).
Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. You can use your Muse to help you aim? How the heck are you doing that.
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Mon, 2010-10-25 17:59
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: No success on Success Tests? Running low on Moxie?
From a rules point of view? Simple teamwork assistance, applicable to any test. From a story point of view? The Muse can have constant access to your thoughts, your perceptions and your TacNet. The Muse simply advises you on where you might want to shoot, how the conditions of your line of fire might affect bullet trajectory, whether to go for a torso shot or risk a head shot, if the targets kinesics hint that they are going to dodge left or right. That sort of thing. The teamwork rules as written are really, very exploitable. I say exploitable, I mean with some fore thought and thinking you can find ways to get them to apply to basically any test at all.
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Mon, 2010-10-25 19:08
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Re: No success on Success Tests? Running low on Moxie?
I agree with Codebreaker (mostly) Professionals do their jobs by using the tactics of their profession to put them in the best position for sucess. They don't need to have legendary scores on thier skills to work at a professional level. As to applying a teamwork bonus to everything you ever do; If a muse can help with a ranged attack then a muse can help with a fray test so it pretty much cancels out. At our table we've given up applying muse bonuses everytime we roll the dice. My feeling is that it's a bit of munchkinism to play that way but RAW it works. I personally suggest disallowing other parties to be involved in the teamwork test unless they also have access to the relevant skill.
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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

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Mon, 2010-10-25 19:17
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: No success on Success Tests? Running low on Moxie?
OneTrikPony wrote:
I personally suggest disallowing other parties to be involved in the teamwork test unless they also have access to the relevant skill.
A fair house rule. I might also suggest only allowing Teamwork bonuses to apply when performing a task action. That means that many of the things that shouldn't really have teamwork applied (dodging, shooting, freerunning) but can be by RAW are not longer possible, however if you take your time with them (using the Take your Time rules) they do become available. An example would be a sniper lining up a shot. If he simply takes the shot as a normal action he doesn't get a teamwork bonus from anything. However if he takes his time (adding a minute to the action and essentially making it a task action) he can.
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Mon, 2010-10-25 22:46
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: No success on Success Tests? Running low on Moxie?
CodeBreaker wrote:
OneTrikPony wrote:
I personally suggest disallowing other parties to be involved in the teamwork test unless they also have access to the relevant skill.
A fair house rule. I might also suggest only allowing Teamwork bonuses to apply when performing a task action. That means that many of the things that shouldn't really have teamwork applied (dodging, shooting, freerunning) but can be by RAW are not longer possible, however if you take your time with them (using the Take your Time rules) they do become available. An example would be a sniper lining up a shot. If he simply takes the shot as a normal action he doesn't get a teamwork bonus from anything. However if he takes his time (adding a minute to the action and essentially making it a task action) he can.
Taking aim is its own action, and actually sums to expending complex actions for the purpose of getting a bonus. It doesn't turn the use of the weapon into a task action. However, I would simply suggest that GMs only allow teamwork bonuses when they are relevant. For instance, two people running together isn't going to get a teamwork bonus, because the two are technically running separately. If they are running a three-legged race, however... then you might utilize one of their skills rolls with a teamwork bonus (in that case, I'd use the lesser of the two with a bonus from the other; represents the fact that the weaker athlete will hold back the better). In the case of a sniper attack, I can see little possibilities for a teamwork bonus. Perhaps if the sniper is blindfiring at a target through a wall, and has a spotter assisting him from a visible viewpoint, or if someone's close range allies are luring a target into a more suitable position. I don't think that a muse should be used for gaining a teamwork bonus in all situations, however... especially in physical scenarios. As a guideline, I might recommend that teamwork bonuses require the expenditure of a complex action from extra participants to utilize. Furthermore, the type of skill they can assist in should be based on the type of complex action used... a mental/mesh complex action shouldn't help with a physical activity, nor should an infomorph be able to do the same.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Tue, 2010-10-26 08:48
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: No success on Success Tests? Running low on Moxie?
Decivre wrote:
Taking aim is its own action, and actually sums to expending complex actions for the purpose of getting a bonus. It doesn't turn the use of the weapon into a task action. However, I would simply suggest that GMs only allow teamwork bonuses when they are relevant. For instance, two people running together isn't going to get a teamwork bonus, because the two are technically running separately. If they are running a three-legged race, however... then you might utilize one of their skills rolls with a teamwork bonus (in that case, I'd use the lesser of the two with a bonus from the other; represents the fact that the weaker athlete will hold back the better). In the case of a sniper attack, I can see little possibilities for a teamwork bonus. Perhaps if the sniper is blindfiring at a target through a wall, and has a spotter assisting him from a visible viewpoint, or if someone's close range allies are luring a target into a more suitable position. I don't think that a muse should be used for gaining a teamwork bonus in all situations, however... especially in physical scenarios.
I was not suggesting that the actual taking aim was turning it into a task action. That would simply be taking either a quick action or a complex action before the actual shot. However, as per the rules on page 117 CORE any automatic, quick or complex action may be turned into effective task actions by taking extra time, adding one minute for every +10 modifier they want to add. And I can see plenty of opportunity for a sniper (doing actual sniper work, not shooting fast) to receive teamwork bonuses if they spend their time preparing for the shot. Look at how most real sniper teams operate, you have a shooter and a spotter, and both perform essential tasks. While the actual shooter has to be able to accurately take the shot, a lot of the time it is the spotter doing essential tasks like calculating wind speed changed, working out slant shots, doing the bullet drop work. So when you have your muse assist you in taking such a shot what you are essentially doing is having it augment the readouts you are getting from your smart gun system to let you let you take your shot either quicker or more accurately. And so you get a +10 bonus.
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As a guideline, I might recommend that teamwork bonuses require the expenditure of a complex action from extra participants to utilize.
Agreed, if you have someone assist you with a teamwork bonus they should essentially be using one of their own action phases to do so.
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Furthermore, the type of skill they can assist in should be based on the type of complex action used... a mental/mesh complex action shouldn't help with a physical activity, nor should an infomorph be able to do the same.
Less agreed. I can think of plenty of times where a Mental/Mesh action might be able to help for physical tasks. Lets say you are running down a bustling street (Freerunning) and you need to get somewhere fast. I would allow a muse to assist by picking out routes, pulling up map data and overlaying entoptic suggestions. Or if you are repairing a vehicle, the muse could be throwing up entoptic plans, remembering where you put all your tools, running diagnostics as you work.
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Tue, 2010-10-26 09:17
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: No success on Success Tests? Running low on Moxie?
CodeBreaker wrote:
I was not suggesting that the actual taking aim was turning it into a task action. That would simply be taking either a quick action or a complex action before the actual shot. However, as per the rules on page 117 CORE any automatic, quick or complex action may be turned into effective task actions by taking extra time, adding one minute for every +10 modifier they want to add. And I can see plenty of opportunity for a sniper (doing actual sniper work, not shooting fast) to receive teamwork bonuses if they spend their time preparing for the shot. Look at how most real sniper teams operate, you have a shooter and a spotter, and both perform essential tasks. While the actual shooter has to be able to accurately take the shot, a lot of the time it is the spotter doing essential tasks like calculating wind speed changed, working out slant shots, doing the bullet drop work. So when you have your muse assist you in taking such a shot what you are essentially doing is having it augment the readouts you are getting from your smart gun system to let you let you take your shot either quicker or more accurately. And so you get a +10 bonus.
Oh, I agree that a spotter could give a sniper bonuses, and that was one such scenario I gave. I don't see how a muse could assist, however... especially one inside your mesh inserts. Think about it: a spotter is useful because they have a secondary vantage point. What advantage does a muse have? It can see and feel only everything that its owner can see and feel; any guesstimates it can make about wind and distance would only be as accurate as the sniper's own, because they are both looking from the same viewpoint. Perhaps if the muse was jamming a bot somewhere, but certainly not a muse within the sniper's inserts.
CodeBreaker wrote:
Less agreed. I can think of plenty of times where a Mental/Mesh action might be able to help for physical tasks. Lets say you are running down a bustling street (Freerunning) and you need to get somewhere fast. I would allow a muse to assist by picking out routes, pulling up map data and overlaying entoptic suggestions. Or if you are repairing a vehicle, the muse could be throwing up entoptic plans, remembering where you put all your tools, running diagnostics as you work.
I wouldn't actually classify that as a teamwork bonuses. The use of research to assist a task would be separate to teamwork bonuses, and may vary from +10 to +30 depending on the level of information: a mapped layout of the area might be a +10 bonus to a freerunning test to evade capture, but a plotted course to follow based on known guard positions would be worth more. Another factor about such research is the potential for inaccuracy: a teamwork bonus is a straight bonus, but what if the research was poorly done? Shouldn't it provide a penalty? Lastly, this is something that an agent could potentially do for him- or herself: perhaps they plotted out the route beforehand, or pre-arranged their tools before getting to work. Does that mean they provide their own teamwork bonus, or is it a different bonus altogether for whatever preparation they took?
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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