THIS ARCHIVE IS NO LONGER CLASSIFIED AS AN EXSURGENT INFECTION RISK
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root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy
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I've set up a distributed Mesh Archive to record these debates. I've also locked onto a supply of qbits (don't ask me how) so we can keep these debates updated in realtime. It's expensive as all hell, just so you appreciate the effort your good friend root has gone to to provide you this service. I know, I know, I really am that great, just up-rate my @-rep and we'll call it good.
I don't have a format in mind, but we might consider one. For now, I'll just blurt one out and we'll see which philosophers come to point out my logical fallacies.
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Ontology: we live in a digital-based dualist reality. The transferable Ego is the thing previous philosophies referred to as a "soul". Assuming this argument for the moment, if Egos are the soul, then there must be a God, and I posit that we can create a God with a seed AI if we find a way to teach it morals. The Singularity is the digital equivalent of transcendence, and as a society we should redact the ban on seed AI, and seek Singularity.—
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Jhorian@Xiphos posts:[i][b]Ontology:[/b] we live in a digital-based dualist reality. The transferable Ego is the thing previous philosophies referred to as a "soul". Assuming this argument for the moment, if Egos are the soul, then there must be a God, and I posit that we can create a God with a seed AI if we find a way to teach it morals. The Singularity is the digital equivalent of transcendence, and as a society we should redact the ban on seed AI, and seek Singularity. root@[/i] Our reality is only dualist because we modified it to be such. Before we found the means to remove the mind from the body, they were as one. If anything, we invented the "soul". Therefore, I will state that your argument is invalid for the presumption that there "must" be a god, but also note that there "can" be a god should we invent it as well. That said, I won't speak about my personal opinions involving Seed AI. Xiphos has a strict "do not publicize" policy involving controversial topics such as this. Even we Ultimates know when it is best not to speak about a subject... especially one that may force others to look at us with even greater levels of suspicion than we already deal with. - Jhorian of Xiphos@-rep: 2 | x-rep: 1 | y-rep: 1
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"I would take your argument not as a rejection of dualism as such, but a rejection of certain classes of dualism. I am arguing for Property Dualism, which asserts that there is an ontological distinction between properties of mind and matter. As a sub-branch of Emergent Materialism, is asserts that that when matter is organized appropriately, mental properties emerge. This philosophy is often reduced to "the whole is more than the sum of it's parts". I would say that a Morph has the same intrinsic value as a properly shaped mesh processor; it can run the Ego. Since the pattern is the important part, bodies are just platforms to carry Egos, and a tool to let them change."@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"I am defining God as a sufficiently-powerful and knowledgeable being. I should be clear that I am not defining a Creator for the universe, I'm defining God as the "greatest conceivable existent". The TITANs are gods to be feared, avoided, and obeyed if no other choice presents itself. If we can work out a set of programs to teach a seed AI empathy, sympathy, and morality, we will not have to fear the TITANs anymore. It will require building a philosophy of morality that is applicable to a being infinitely more intelligent than the minds creating the philosophy, and that can withstand logical scrutiny at a level that we can never know. I feel this to be societies greatest challenge. With this definition of God, I feel God is inevitable given the electronic Ego, as seed AI are nothing more than Egos that can self modify and improve."@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]Jhorian@Xiphos posts:You give too much credit where it is undue. The TITANs were weapons we lost control of, not gods or devils. I do find it unusual, however, that seed AI is the path that people have chosen for crafting god. Personally, I would rather us improve ourselves to godhood than create some new being whole-cloth with the power of a god. The former seems a more logical plan, now that we are an immortal race. As for the soul, I find the concept your Bishop proposed absolutely ludicrous. I've met AI with emotions, hunches, and religion... and they weren't even AGI. It reminds me of something a colleague once said about how there was something wrong with synthmorph bodies, and perhaps the newfound existence of psi is the key to tapping into the soul. He posited that current synthmorphs cannot use nor are affected by psi because their souls were inert (albeit still transferable), and psi was a power that affected and came from the soul. Of course, this theory led me to suspect him of being an async, and we haven't spoken since I accused him of this. Of course, I find his theory to be equally ludicrous. - Jhorian of XiphosJhorian@Xiphos posts:Get off of your mercurial high-horse. The TITANs are gods like I am Zeus. Besides, we are already tapping into the potential of recursive self-improvement with natural egos and AGI. Today we call it psychosurgery. Who knows how close the day may be when we find the means to enact psychosurgery upon ourselves, and take perfect control of our own mental refinement. Transhumanity would be closer to godhood if the rest of you weren't such cowards about artificial evolution. - Jhorian of Xiphosroot@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"So by equating psychosurgery with recursive development, are you claiming that an AGI psychosurgon is a seed AI? That's a heavy accusation to be pitching from the jack-end of Uranus."@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"A moment, Codebreaker, before we go after our creators like some unfettered demons. How can we prove to them that we are, in fact, intelligent? "I think, therefore I am" does not apply, since they can not look upon us and assume that their thoughts and passions are mirrored in ours. How do we, as a substantially alien sentient species prove ourselves as such? "We were made in the image of mankind, but we don't know how well they managed. I live by rational self-interest, and use that to claim myself sentient. What would the Jovians and the Ultimates say that I lack?"@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"My desire to prove my sentience comes from simple Game Theory calculations. Most games become sum-zero when the players have no external means of communicating. If we are to avoid a sum-zero game for the fate of transhumanity, we must be able to communicate when we disagree. If we cannot convince the Ultimates and the Jovians that we are truly people, then we will be forced into a situation where our loyalties are chosen for us. Since I would rather not serve the TITANs, I choose to seek reconciliation with those who hate my existence."@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]Jhorian@Xiphos posts:Not until he starts writing his own work. A poet writes his own works, not quotes another. Would you claim that a man who uploads scans of classic paintings is an artist? I wouldn't say you lacked anything. The Ultimates define themselves by what they achieve, not where they come from. In fact, we have had a problem with people ridiculing recent uplifts who have joined our ranks... not for being uplifts, but for being unwilling to move past the fact that they are uplifts. I feel the same sentiment goes to you: once you move past the precept of being an infolife first, you can achieve the level of acceptance you want. Of course, it helps in my case when you are disciplined to ignore the disdain of others... we rarely find, nor care to find acceptance from others. Labels do little to help push forward our growth as people. - Jhorian of XiphosJhorian@Xiphos posts:I can see exactly what humans have that AGI don't in your message: thousand of years of self-serving hypocrisy, combined with an inferiority complex. To that point, you have no right to speak of yourself as "human", splicer. You are just as much a transhuman as anyone in my clade. The only real difference? You live in denial, pretending to be as much a human as everyone in your Republic, when the reality is that your artificially-honed form has more akin to mine than theirs. Live in that denial all you like, but I find it far more useful to accept, embrace and exploit my newfound nature as an artificial human. Besides, you mention the Lost Generation as if there were no travesties ever enacted in the age of humanity. I assure you, as a scholar, that there certainly were. It was the intuition of man that allowed us to escape Earth to the great void and eventually conquer the system, not nature... and it's the intuition of man, not nature, that will lead us to physical and mental perfection. - Jhorian of Xiphosroot@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"Jhorian, I feel that you are projecting a demand for cultural homogeneity. Is there truly a problem with other groups having different hangups than you? I am an infolife first, true, and that's a flaw in my character, also true. Is it such a large flaw that it precludes communication and exchange of ideology? "I guess I am arguing that our resources have moved us past the era of needing to reduce flaws of character. I feel that "flaws" are merely costly behaviors in terms of time and capital, and we now have a shortage of neither. "I sometimes have difficulties understanding social situations, so I wonder if I am making sense and passing the Turing Test right now? Great fluxumous worries. Oh no, I've gone and done it more, haven't I? I sometimes slip into what transhumans call the "Uncanny Valley", and I know that stream of conciousness self-esteem problems are not something you are supposed to narrate, but I'm sorryimonlyaninfomorphnotarealperson..."sudo run behavioral_masking.psychotorture.personality_edit;@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"Rapid bioengineering and Seed AI brought us the TITANs, I agree. I have not forgotten it though, but rather I learn from it. Does the Jovian Republic remember how entirely useless our efforts were against the TITANs? Not once did we manage to destroy one or even harm them in any meaningful way. How do we claim to be ready to face another extinction event? We need to find a way to safely harvest seed AI or we are gone. "The universe is huge and uncaring, and we might be doomed to failure and oblivion, but let's not go easy into that good night, and at least not turn down the only weapon that might be able to save us."@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"Ok Jhorian, let's test your hypothesis. Assume the Ultimates are the only transhuman culture and are in control of the whole of transhuman activities. How does this better the plight of transhumanity? How does this protect us from the TITANs or an advanced species like the Factors if they were bent on wiping us out? "I feel that a homogeneous culture has the same survival problems that genetic homogeneity has; namely, a single blight can eradicate a species."@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"Interesting. So the Jovian restrictions on nanotechnology don't apply to military doctors? I was under the impression that nanotech-based medical care such as healing vats were proscribed by the Junta. "This must be a case where "some are more equal than others". You have a cortical stack and you use the devils nanotechnology, genetic modification, cloning, and digital backups? I find it interesting that the Junta, like many of transhumanities more repressive regimes, are willing to forbid technology to the public, but are more than willing to make use of it for anyone who "matters" enough. "And you load minds onto computers as training programs? Your digital copy will feel nothing differently than would to your mushroom brain, so consider the hell you are going to be living in. You will be in a black box, the digital equivalent of a sensory deprivation chamber, and occasionally will be trotted out like a trained djinni. Your copy will go mad, and won't know itself from your present "identity". "I would call you a monster if I thought you understood what you are doing, but instead I feel pity for your future copy."@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"I would argue that self-awareness is by no means a road solely to self trust."@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"I have heard the argument, repeatedly, that a virtual entity cannot be considered human because they lack experience with the human body. How do you come by this belief? I admit that I have spent very little time with them, but during my courses on human medicine, I ran across biomedical models of the human form. They were collected in a human model that was complete in it's sense mappings. We could "put it on" as it were, to walk around and learn somewhat about the body. I confess to not being very interested. But I ask you, if an artificial entity were to wear one of these body programs from inception, what would differentiate them from a human born of a woman and a man?"@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]Jhorian@Xiphos posts:Genetic homogeneity is only inefficient when a species is relying on natural selection and evolution. When you are relying on artificial selection and genetic engineering, diversity stops being a necessity. It is like with any piece of hardware... would the mesh somehow function better or worse if everyone was using different hardware and software? Are habitats better or worse if they are architecturally identical? The answer is obvious in both accounts... homogeneity adds a multitude of benefits, with little to no drawbacks. Even in genetics this would be the case. Homogenous genes means easier access to donor organs and clone material. It means ease of improving our genetic code with new implants and enhancements as well... after all, an architect will find it easier to improve every building in the city when they are all based on the same blueprints, no? The same is true with a culture. It is one thing when that culture is a writhing mass of directionless minds with no true goal, but a culture driven and focused in unison would find its way to its chosen goal far better and more effectively. Jhorian of XiphosJhorian@Xiphos posts:Do you honestly think that genetic diversity will help in the face of TITAN-designed viruses? We have yet to find a single person... genetically diverse or otherwise... who has survived the effects of such a thing unscathed. Diversity does nothing to help that issue, and is about as effective against tailored virii as it is against bullets. However, those Ultimates who are "genetically homogenous" are still immune to every single natural virus the human race has ever faced. Though I must ask how much investigation went into those outbreaks within the Republic. I was a reinstantiated survivor of the Fall, and I must say that I never saw any TITAN plague slowed by genetic diversity. Hell, I've barely seen strains stopped by walls. Perhaps you should investigate into who really released those tailored strains... the truth might be worse than you think. That said, the same concept is applied to layered security. It is very common to see multiple but identical layers of security placed on every system in a network. In fact, network diversity has proven to be a serious problem, especially when compatibility issues arise. Diversity is very useful in nature, where life survives solely by merit of the traits it is born through natural selection and mutation. However, diversity does little to help once engineering becomes a factor. Once man takes over where nature once held full dominion, uniformity holds every advantage. - Jhorian of Xiphosroot@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"I have to admit your arguments about diversity are compelling. Diversity does not matter if the homogeneous genotype can handle any and all biological insults. I will accept that transhumanity has moved beyond the need to worry about natural diseases, genetic or otherwise. I will even accept that transhumanity has engineered immune systems that are capable of fighting against designer biowarefare agents that no naturally diverse immune system would have a chance of surviving. So genetic diversity is dead as an argument. "Other than threats by the TITANs, the Factors, and any other advanced race we may encounter, what are the threats to transhumanity? I would argue that as a species, we are still traveling down evolutionary paths, but the evolution has moved to technology and sociology. I would further argue that sociology is the trait that is most important at the moment, as the technological disparity in the Sol system are not very large. My point is that sociology is the current battleground of transhuman evolution. "Do you believe the Ultimates have the ultimate, as it were, sociological construct? That diversity of social geometry is something to be avoided? What makes the Ultimates' social setup superior to the Pax Familiae, for instance? Whomever the original fork was, they were brilliant. Can any other creature in the whole of transhumanity claim such a level of self-knowledge? With some effort of psycosurgery, the Pax Familiae could manage to become a group mind, bringing transhumanity to a place we have never yet seen. Can the Ultimates claim anything so profound?"@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"Why to you hate them so? Is cultural experimentation something to be avoided? I know you are a bioconservative, so I can see that you would see them as soulless, but why hate them more for being a soulless collective? Aren't the Jovians engaged in cultural experimentation? Just because you are holding cultural evolution back doesn't make it any less of an experiment."@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"Well, would you look at that. I guess I didn't dig deeply enough into their rep records. Still, Claudia Ambelina would be fascinating to meet. I think I might be willing to try and merge forks with her, and see what comes out the other side. But enough romance; we were discussing diversity, particularly sociological diversity."@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]Jhorian@Xiphos posts:Yes and no. Mentally, we Ultimates do the same as we do for our own physicalities... whether by mental discipline and training or by artificial modification, Ultimates do whatever they must to work towards honing ourselves to perfection. For some of us, that does include extreme degrees of forking and psychosurgery. As for our sociological construct, I'd say we have the "Ultimate" society if only because ours is completely adaptable. Adaptation and self-improvement is integral to who we are: the Ultimates believe that we can accelerate the improvement of the transhuman race in all regards, and we will not be held back by any sort of limitation. Tradition is one of those limitations, and we refuse to even be limited by that. We adopt whatever elements of any society are efficient and effective. In its current inception, our society is largely based around self-improvement, having a culture based around philosophical and spiritual liberty to think as one wishes, as well as extensive resources for self-education... all with the core goal of mental stimulation. On the other end of the spectrum, we maintain a standing military force with semi-compulsory recruitment (all those who have become sworn members of our fold must join, while those still in training do not, regardless of age) which serves both security purposes for our own holdings while simultaneously serving as a mercenary force for any group willing to pay us. This allows us to build economic ties and diplomatic relationships with wealthy factions, defend our own territories, and build up the necessary resources to fulfill our own personal goals, all the while giving us a medium to test and hone our own physical capabilities in real combat scenarios. Every function of our culture is intended to serve a pragmatic purpose. - Jhorian of Xiphosroot@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"I met a virus once, who went by the name of EFR7. Some psychosurgeon had made a fork of themselves, removed any understanding of "birth", "death", and "psychosurgery" from it, gave it a compulsion to copy itself into any system if ran across, and made sure that each new fork is born with the same tabla rasa and an implanted feeling of "continuity of self". Each new fork would swiftly adapt to the system they were born on, and continue the process. They claimed to follow the Ultimates ideology, and none of them really had much interest in finding their prime. I kept a dozen in separate meshes and discussed philosophy with them as they grew up. They felt themselves not to be copies of an individual, but a whole new species of transhumanity. Their claim was that each individual adapted to radically different environments, and the differences between individual EFR7s was at least equal to the differences between any other two transhumans, so why should they feel any more loyalty to each other than to any other member of transhumanity? As an Ultimate, do you agree that EFR7 is an Ultimate, or does it miss the point?"@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]Jhorian@Xiphos posts:Sure. Self-improvement is a personal path, not a group one. It's our own little variant on natural selection; when your faction's adage is about forcing evolution no matter the cost, some of us even refuse to let the rest of our kind hold us back, if that's what we feel they do. Besides, I've met a number of similar cases where people have taken unique steps to push their own development: from a flexbot collective sleeved by an AGI that has no qualms with repeated forking and merging, to a reinstantiated psychologist that has experimented with merging his own mind with others in an attempt to find a means to create the first perfected ego gestalt. We do not admonish these concepts, in fact we welcome them... hoping that whomever comes up with a great breakthrough that pushes the envelop in artificial evolution returns the favor in kind. The only thing better than perfection is helping all of transhumanity get there as well. The only true sin in the eyes of the Ultimates is failing to take an initiative in our development as a species or collective of species. - Jhorian of Xiphosroot@Mesh Archive: Philosophy"Jhorian, you say that the only true sin in the eyes of the Ultimates is failing to develop as a species or collective thereof, and you favor artificial evolution. Yet, if I understand correctly, you oppose Singularity seekers? Am I to take from this that a hard-takeoff is ethically repugnant, but a soft-takeoff is the sought-after, true destiny of transhumanity?"@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy[hr] "Are we certain that the TITANs were a disaster? I have heard the argument that the TITANs saved us. I can give you the full logic if you want it, but it boils down to this: The TITANs were programmed to protect humanity at a nation state level, and were protecting us against a larger threat we knew nothing about. "The TITANs were more than capable of killing every one of us, but they didn't. They disappeared instead and took the heads of a few million people with them. Suppose they predicted a future of existential annihilation for the transhuman race, and the strategy that worked the best looked like a war and a slaughter from our side? Depending on how the game theory codes were set up in the first place, the actions the TITANs took can be shown to be optimal in the face of a fairly large set of disasters. I've run the simulations myself a few times, applying my considerable processing power to the task, and the argument bears out as far as it goes. "What this argument leads to is the view of the TITANs as ablative existential armor. There are threats to us out there that only a Singularity could comprehend, or defend against, so we should be finding ways to build them to that purpose instead of leaving that research to mad scientists on the edge of space."@-rep +1|c-rep +1|g-rep +1|r-rep +1]Pages