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merging ... with other ?

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fafromnice fafromnice's picture
merging ... with other ?
I was tinking I don't have time to read all the post on this section so if one of them talk of my subject just point him so ... can we merge with other ego, technically I say yes, the TITANs do it, but what happen if a transhuman do it what are, in game's terms, de stress value of this type of process or what will happen. Two share consciouness ? so what do you think ? By the way I'm sorry for my english, french people don'yt know how to write ;)

What do you mean a butterfly cause this ? How a butterfly can cause an enviromental system overload on the other side of a 10 000 egos habitat ?

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
No, you cannot. The technology simply doesn’t exist right now, at least not in such a way that results in anything close to a sane Ego. There is, currently, no proof that even the TITANs are capable of of merging two entirely separate transhuman Egos into a single whole. The merging rules provided are specifically for the re-integration of a spawned fork being folded back into the originating ego. If for some reason you do allow two Ego to become merged into a single I would advise you only do so as a result of either ancient alien technology or extremely advanced TITAN level. I would subject the Ego to a massive amount of stress (On the scale of 10d10, enough to drive almost anyone insane) and I would play it out the same way the Multiple Personality implant is done. Anything else just brings up far to many problems, like what is the resultant Egos skills/aptitudes? If one Ego has Psi does the resultant?
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
CodeBreaker wrote:
No, you cannot. The technology simply doesn’t exist right now, at least not in such a way that results in anything close to a sane Ego. There is, currently, no proof that even the TITANs are capable of of merging two entirely separate transhuman Egos into a single whole. The merging rules provided are specifically for the re-integration of a spawned fork being folded back into the originating ego. If for some reason you do allow two Ego to become merged into a single I would advise you only do so as a result of either ancient alien technology or extremely advanced TITAN level. I would subject the Ego to a massive amount of stress (On the scale of 10d10, enough to drive almost anyone insane) and I would play it out the same way the Multiple Personality implant is done. Anything else just brings up far to many problems, like what is the resultant Egos skills/aptitudes? If one Ego has Psi does the resultant?
In all fairness, you can have such a problem even with identical egos. What if you fork someone, infect one of them with Watts Macleod, then merge them again? What if two forks of the same person stay apart long enough for both of them to go through college for two different fields... will the resultant character from merging know both fields? To be honest, the merging rules need a lot more information than what is present.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
Decivre wrote:
In all fairness, you can have such a problem even with identical egos. What if you fork someone, infect one of them with Watts Macleod, then merge them again? What if two forks of the same person stay apart long enough for both of them to go through college for two different fields... will the resultant character from merging know both fields? To be honest, the merging rules need a lot more information than what is present.
I agree, the merging rules as written are quite lacking. I am really, really hoping that Hotfix will have a chapter devoted to forking/merging/uploading/resleeving, with both more rules and more investigation on the social problems that such technology brings. Really, its all down to GM decision right now, which for something so central to the setting is a Bad Thing. Quite a few of the problems surrounding merging would be fixed if there was a hard limit after which a fork could no longer be merged back into its ego without major problems arising (As in off to the long term mental ward with you type problems). Say, after two weeks of conscious thought from either the original ego or the fork the two are considered so different that they cannot be merged back together. If you did it that way it would be very, very difficult for any character to get the needed Rez points to afford any substantial increase in either skills or something like Psi. Then you only have to deal with a few points of skill loss here and there (which can be explained away as memory loss).
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Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
I think it's all a matter of proportions and choices -which will be the "leading" fork of the Ego? -In what proportion will the two be assimilated? the whole personna or just the memories, like a Deltafork? Skillsofts are just that: part of the ego pruned of everything but the skills and knowledge
[center] Q U I N C E Y ^_*_^ F O R D E R [/center] Remember The Cant! [img]http://tinyurl.com/h8azy78[/img] [img]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/theeye_fanzine_us...
fafromnice fafromnice's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
I was thinking of so much stress damage that will pop the head of the player for my part sincerely I was asking more for a futur vilian i like my player to meet, some sincerly psycho guy like one of dead rising 2 anyway tanks for the advice and ideas

What do you mean a butterfly cause this ? How a butterfly can cause an enviromental system overload on the other side of a 10 000 egos habitat ?

root root's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
root@merging [hr] Neo-Synergists.
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fafromnice fafromnice's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
Hun ? I don't have SunWard yet, so if you could explain a little it will be very cool ... or this is in the Core Book and I don't remember

What do you mean a butterfly cause this ? How a butterfly can cause an enviromental system overload on the other side of a 10 000 egos habitat ?

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
They are in Sunward. Basically the Neo-Synergists are a group of Gatecrashers whose Pandora Gate stopped dialing properly in 5AF. The connection was re-established in the last few months, and a group of them have come back from their exoplanet and setup shop on Venus. The Neo-Synergists are special because they were left on their exoplanet with experimental technology called the Hypermesh, which is an upgraded version of Mesh technology that basically lets them experience life as a group mind. They share everything with one another, thoughts, feelings, emotions, the whole shebang. So at anyone time the Neo-Synergist has access to an unestablished number of other peoples skills and information. Although broadcasting their full range of emotions to others is something they can turn on and off, a slight background of an individuals emotion is constantly broadcast to the collective, which means that they tend to feel emotions as a group. They are not quite a gestalt mind like you asked for, each individual keeps his own personality, however it is the closest thing that transhumanity has officially got so far.
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fafromnice fafromnice's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
Ok ... Thanks i read a book somethimes ago who create something like that at end a group was trying to make a emotional connection with the great general of the world so everybody will not want to kill each other

What do you mean a butterfly cause this ? How a butterfly can cause an enviromental system overload on the other side of a 10 000 egos habitat ?

Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
fafromnice wrote:
Hun ? I don't have SunWard yet, so if you could explain a little it will be very cool ... or this is in the Core Book and I don't remember
Look up Synergy in the story section of the core book. Synergy was a place where a group of colonists tested out a new mind networking system, that basically turned the entire colony into a shared mind. They all could feel each others thoughts and emotions. The neo-synergists were an off-shoot that left the exoplanet colony of Synergy and moved back to the solar system.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
A good inspiration for that kind of hive mind that you're looking for, Fafromnice, would be in TRAVIS (en français uniquement). [img]http://www.magazinedown.com/upimg/201008/19/19032740411.jpeg[/img] Such entity might not be as powerful as a TITAN but not far from it, seeing how they fixed Vlad Nyrki, after a near fatal climbing accident and subsequent coma. [img]http://www.sceneario.com/Couverture_bd_2847890424.jpg[/img]
[center] Q U I N C E Y ^_*_^ F O R D E R [/center] Remember The Cant! [img]http://tinyurl.com/h8azy78[/img] [img]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/theeye_fanzine_us...
root root's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
root@merging [hr] Oh sweet hivemind, how can I express the ways your lack of existence fills me with sorrow? I can't, and won't be able to until we can merge into one mind, and then my sorrow will be relieved. Oh joy of dissolution into the oblivion that is the roar of humanities collected thoughts, your time approaches. *cough* Not infected. I swear to it.
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CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
Burn the Singularity Seeker! Burn!
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root root's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
root@merging [hr]
CodeBreaker wrote:
Burn the Singularity Seeker! Burn!
What? Where? Dirty Singularity seekers! Unclean!
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Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
I know who Root really is! He's Doctor A. Cross of Youtube fame!
[center] Q U I N C E Y ^_*_^ F O R D E R [/center] Remember The Cant! [img]http://tinyurl.com/h8azy78[/img] [img]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/theeye_fanzine_us...
root root's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
root@merging [hr] Now, now MemeNet-23, there's no need for name-calling.
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root root's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
root@merging [hr] Oh, right, I forgot to give credit where it is due. fafromnice r-rep++
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Unity Unity's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
Alas, poor root. "Our consensus would be glad to welcome another program if you would [I]accept our code[/I]." And that's all Unity has to say about it. They're... Um, should an AGI collective consciousness have Persuasion 40 with a specialization in Seduction?
fafromnice fafromnice's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
Woooooo !!! I lost you ... all Yeah !! I win rep ... hun ? and i know travis ;) Yes it's like a hive mind but i was more searching in the idea of force merging someone with another ego like when the TITAN try to become a singularity (thing I don't understand well by the way) but with a Human-like ego PS: my name is faRfromnice, it's just i really FAIL when i write it for the first time in this blog and i don't know how to change it :O ... ;)

What do you mean a butterfly cause this ? How a butterfly can cause an enviromental system overload on the other side of a 10 000 egos habitat ?

root root's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
root@merging [hr]
Unity wrote:
Um, should an AGI collective consciousness have Persuasion 40 with a specialization in Seduction?
No, they shouldn't. It should be 80 with a specialization in Seduction.
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root root's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
root@merging [hr] Force merging egos? So, this is soul rape we're talking about? That's pretty standard operating procedure for TITANs, so yes I would say it is doable. The only problem is the psychosurgery rules show that managing it without destroying all of the minds involved would have such a low probability of success that you would need some seriously powerful computing technology to run enough merging attempts with forks. Making that sort of computing architecture shows up on every polities list unless you have a very good way of hiding it. Of which I can think of several. Dozen. In Sol system. Hmm... yes, I think I have my first TITAN character now. farfromnice x-rep +5
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fafromnice fafromnice's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
Why I keep getting rep and what it means ?
What do you mean a butterfly cause this ? How a butterfly can cause an enviromental system overload on the other side of a 10 000 egos habitat ?
root root's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
root@merging [hr] One of the features of Eclipse Phase is the reputation economies, and most of us have a hard time wrapping our minds around how they work. In an effort to learn about reputation networks, we've been awarding rep to each other for appropriate contributions. We give people r-rep when they bring us some really cool scientific information, f-rep when they give us good stories or art, c-rep for helping build the infrastructure of the site, @-rep for general coolness and good posts, g-rep for clever and nasty ideas, and x-rep for very exhuman contributions like forced ego mergings. It means we like you.
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fafromnice fafromnice's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
Ho nice !
What do you mean a butterfly cause this ? How a butterfly can cause an enviromental system overload on the other side of a 10 000 egos habitat ?
memesis memesis's picture
Re: merging ... with other ?
To handle a scenario I'm working with, I took a shot at explaining some of the difficulties in merging incompatible egos: An incomplete (beta, delta, etc.) fork of a person is an imprecise copy of their brain structures. Either the whole structure is coarsened and simplified, or specific parts are extracted out to construct the fork. To produce something which can function as an intelligent being, such forks are outfitted with "psychological prostheses" in software. A specialized delta fork, for example, doesn't need the richly textured emotional life of its originator, but it needs some context for such things or it cannot function. One factor which interferes with merging incompatible egos is the necessity of rationalization. Human beings act in certain ways, dictated by past behavior, personality, circumstances and so forth. However, they must also see their behaviors as the rational outcome of a decision-making process. An ego which attempts to merge with a fork whose behaviors are considerably at odds with its own standards is forced into a situation where it cannot rationalize actions it now believes itself to have taken. A potential solution is to excise the portions of the brain that would interfere with such a merge. This arguably results in a new ego being formed, rather than any essence of the previous ego/egos involved being carried through the merge process, and risks insanity. If attempted on two incompatible alpha forks, irreversible madness is the most likely outcome. Someone intimately familiar with the psychology of two distinct egos might conceivably assemble an ego from their components over time. In the case of a fully-formed ego attempting to integrate an inferior fork, the ego's "real" brain will replace the psychological prostheses which supported the fork's functionality. However, there is necessarily some cost to the ego's own brain structure. If the TITANs or other hyperintelligent AIs have ever attempted such experiments, they certainly didn't publish their data. At present, there isn't enough economic incentive to justify the overwhelming risks of this sort of experimentation (as far as anyone knows).
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