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Making the Jovians non-stupid

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Sat, 2010-12-18 19:45
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
The Planetary Consortium also has TITAN scientists (probably more then the Jovians) so you shouldn't stereotype the Jovians with the people directly involved with the Fall. Personally I think the key to making the Jovians non-stupid is to focus on the people of the Jovian Republic and not the Republic as a whole. Profile the exemplary individuals that embody the Jovian spirit and their drive to save humanity at all costs (good or bad). The same goes for factions like the Titanians, the Ultimates, Exhumans, and Scum. Only the Planetary Consortium can be viewed as a overall group and not look evil as a whole (greedy but not evil).
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Mon, 2010-12-20 14:28
lucyfersam lucyfersam's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
root wrote:
root@Making the Jovians non-stupid [hr] As TBRMInsanity says, transhumans are quitters. Jovian soldiers fight to the bone because they don't have the option of rebooting from a save point. They will do everything they can to use force multipiers and ways to leverage a network enhanced mind, and this includes the fact that they do not consider forks to be human. They don't need to jam drones (but they will) when they can send in drones with full alphas inside who don't consider themselves to be human, and are thus fully expendable in their own minds. The Jovians will always play for higher stakes, because they have no other choice. If Gorgon Security invades a Jovian mining facility, expect the janitor to rise to the challenge and become a hero using nothing but chlorine, bleach, and a cheap pocket knife. If the PC points a gun at something the Jovians own, expect them to point a battleship back. If someone points a battleship at something the Jovians own, expect them to find a way to blacken the sun in retaliation. The Jovians always win because they are willing to die a final death, and the transhumans aren't. Since the Jovians are always willing to risk more, they will always be the ones choosing which game is being played, and the ability to choose the game gives them an insurmountable advantage against transhumans.
Ha, fraggin', ha. The only thing being willing to die a final death means is that when they lose, they lose forever. In no way do the stakes being higher ensure they will fight harder. If the Jovians were willing to send out alpha forks in synths as soldiers, they would quickly find themselves extinct as just because the original thinks they are not human is no guarantee the fork will keep thinking that way when it comes to the moment of truth and they have to sacrifice themselves. Depicting them like that really goes further into making them caricature villains. Your janitor would most likely surrender, because if he surrenders he can just start being a janitor for someone else and is still alive. If he fights to the death, he dies and that's the end. A low end mook for Gorgon, on the other hand, if confronted by overwhelming force can be expected to go out with a bang taking a large chunk of that force with them because he know he will be resleeved. Raising the stakes for oneself while not being able to make your opponent do the same puts you in a weakened position every time. I actually rather like the Jovian's as the North Korea of the setting. Their mindset makes no sense to me whatsoever and they do seem like the defacto and somewhat caricatured villain. I have the exact same response to North Korea though and they really exist. They will continue to exist until everyone decides that letting them exist is a greater cost than leaving them alone. At that point, they will fall and fall quickly. They will likely do a decent chunk of collateral damage as they go, but in the end they won't stand a chance. The larger meme of bioconservatism will far outlast the Junta, but will be much reduced from it's AF 10 state. I suspecti it would likely crop up in cults and communities for several hundred years at least and be very widespread in its less extreme forms for at least another 50 years or so.
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Tue, 2010-12-21 21:23
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
lucyfersam wrote:
Ha, fraggin', ha. The only thing being willing to die a final death means is that when they lose, they lose forever. In no way do the stakes being higher ensure they will fight harder. If the Jovians were willing to send out alpha forks in synths as soldiers, they would quickly find themselves extinct as just because the original thinks they are not human is no guarantee the fork will keep thinking that way when it comes to the moment of truth and they have to sacrifice themselves. Depicting them like that really goes further into making them caricature villains. Your janitor would most likely surrender, because if he surrenders he can just start being a janitor for someone else and is still alive. If he fights to the death, he dies and that's the end. A low end mook for Gorgon, on the other hand, if confronted by overwhelming force can be expected to go out with a bang taking a large chunk of that force with them because he know he will be resleeved. Raising the stakes for oneself while not being able to make your opponent do the same puts you in a weakened position every time. I actually rather like the Jovian's as the North Korea of the setting. Their mindset makes no sense to me whatsoever and they do seem like the defacto and somewhat caricatured villain. I have the exact same response to North Korea though and they really exist. They will continue to exist until everyone decides that letting them exist is a greater cost than leaving them alone. At that point, they will fall and fall quickly. They will likely do a decent chunk of collateral damage as they go, but in the end they won't stand a chance. The larger meme of bioconservatism will far outlast the Junta, but will be much reduced from it's AF 10 state. I suspecti it would likely crop up in cults and communities for several hundred years at least and be very widespread in its less extreme forms for at least another 50 years or so.
You are forgetting one simple thing, the longer something lives, the less it reproduces. The Jovians will always have more children and have a faster growing population then any other transhuman population. In fact some factions (Hyper elite for example) are at risk of actually going extinct if a major threat (like the TITANs) every attacks transhumanity.
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Wed, 2010-12-22 16:26
root root's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
root@Making the Jovians non-stupid
lucyfersam wrote:
Ha, fraggin', ha. The only thing being willing to die a final death means is that when they lose, they lose forever. In no way do the stakes being higher ensure they will fight harder. If the Jovians were willing to send out alpha forks in synths as soldiers, they would quickly find themselves extinct as just because the original thinks they are not human is no guarantee the fork will keep thinking that way when it comes to the moment of truth and they have to sacrifice themselves. Depicting them like that really goes further into making them caricature villains.
When they lose, they lose forever. This is not often understood by humans, because we do not frequently stare straight into the eye of death. When someone is aware of what they can lose, they fight like rabid monsters in a way that inspires awe. Decimating troops has this effect, and is probably the most horribly existential punishment possible to the point where I would prefer to draw the short straw. This is a psychological boost that transhumans only get when confronted with final death, because at that moment they are also no more than mortal. If I was sending alphas out on suicide missions, I would rig the hosting brain by simply removing any understanding of death.
"lucyfersam" wrote:
Your janitor would most likely surrender, because if he surrenders he can just start being a janitor for someone else and is still alive. If he fights to the death, he dies and that's the end. A low end mook for Gorgon, on the other hand, if confronted by overwhelming force can be expected to go out with a bang taking a large chunk of that force with them because he know he will be resleeved. Raising the stakes for oneself while not being able to make your opponent do the same puts you in a weakened position every time.
Raising the stakes for oneself without being able to raise them for your opponent puts you in a weakened position every time. I agree, this is true by definition and it is a necessary part of how the gambit works. The trick is to be better at playing the weak hand than the other team is at playing the strong hand. They have different strategies that can be leveraged differently. The transhuman has a huge number of advantages and is in the more powerful, dominant position. The humans can and will make sacrifices that the transhumans simply cannot stomach. The transhumans can afford to be honorable, and I would argue that this gives an advantage to the humans.
"lucyfersam" wrote:
I actually rather like the Jovian's as the North Korea of the setting. Their mindset makes no sense to me whatsoever and they do seem like the defacto and somewhat caricatured villain. I have the exact same response to North Korea though and they really exist. They will continue to exist until everyone decides that letting them exist is a greater cost than leaving them alone. At that point, they will fall and fall quickly. They will likely do a decent chunk of collateral damage as they go, but in the end they won't stand a chance.
How many people is "decent chunk of collateral damage" such that collateral damage ≤ acceptable collateral damage? Here's another interesting question. If you got your genie in a bottle tomorrow, and had a nanofabber the size of a breadbox delivered to your doorstep in the morning, what would you do with it? If someone down the street got bitchy and wanted everyone to get off the lawn what uses them there's devil boxes, wouldn't it be easier to use your magic genie to build you a castle in the sky and let the poor bastard mutter over the grass? If the land (in this case the Sol system) has so little value to you now that you have your rocking magic box, and that crazy old guy is down there with his antique blunderbuss and rusty walker is willing to train the rats of NIMH to be the most awful thing he can imagine you being upset by, who is the dick for fighting?
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Wed, 2010-12-22 08:44
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
TBRMInsanity wrote:
You are forgetting one simple thing, the longer something lives, the less it reproduces. The Jovians will always have more children and have a faster growing population then any other transhuman population. In fact some factions (Hyper elite for example) are at risk of actually going extinct if a major threat (like the TITANs) every attacks transhumanity.
I could not disagree more strongly. Where are you getting this from? Comparing r- and K- strategies? Because I don't think those apply any longer. And even assuming it's true, what sort of advantages do the Jovians have with twenty infants and teenagers, contrasted with even a single uber-experienced, combat-tested alpha fork?
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Wed, 2010-12-22 10:47
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
I could not disagree more strongly. Where are you getting this from? Comparing r- and K- strategies? Because I don't think those apply any longer. And even assuming it's true, what sort of advantages do the Jovians have with twenty infants and teenagers, contrasted with even a single uber-experienced, combat-tested alpha fork?
I agree that the children of transhumans will be superior to Jovian children (that isn't the point I was arguing), but it is a trait of nature that the longer a species lives, the less children they have. Even if you look at humans today, in nations with higher life expectancy rates, parents are having fewer children, and they are having them later in life (India being the only exception to this). The only group I feel that would be an exception to this rule would be the Ultimates as they are actively trying to create a new humanity in their own image. Their expansionist ideals will force them to always create new alpha forks and morphs to hold those forks. I think the greatest risk to the Jovian society is that they don't become an Idiotcracy (watch the movie of the same name to get my reference).
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Wed, 2010-12-22 13:05
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
The whole point of trans/posthumanity is that it has transcended the laws of nature. We are breaking the conventional laws of nature everywhere. In fact, there are entire factions whose sole purpose is to break the laws of nature. I don't think we can apply resource and time constraints (both explicitly removed) as realistically enforcing this behavior. This also ignores that the transhumans already have made scads more population than they can support - that's the billion or so people hanging out in cold storage - who are being resleeved, as fully mature and experienced adults, every day.
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Wed, 2010-12-22 14:27
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Quote:
And even assuming it's true, what sort of advantages do the Jovians have with twenty infants and teenagers, contrasted with even a single uber-experienced, combat-tested alpha fork?
They don't crazy as fast as he does, for starters. Really. You have a less chance of them wandering through the streets singing random numbers and impaling human meat bags or wandering off beyond Kuiper Belt searching for muse of sphere's and so on...
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[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Wed, 2010-12-22 15:39
lucyfersam lucyfersam's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
TBRMInsanity wrote:
You are forgetting one simple thing, the longer something lives, the less it reproduces. The Jovians will always have more children and have a faster growing population then any other transhuman population. In fact some factions (Hyper elite for example) are at risk of actually going extinct if a major threat (like the TITANs) every attacks transhumanity.
The setting makes it pretty obvious that if an TITAN level threat makes a dedicated effort to wipe humanity out, the Jovian's children will be of no more use than the transhuman's backups and forks. Humanity at large is vulnerable to extinction and neither group is particularly well equipped to prevent it. About the only chance trans/humanity has against a threat like that is a deep space Ark completely isolated from outside communication.
root wrote:
When they lose, they lose forever. This is not often understood by humans, because we do not frequently stare straight into the eye of death. When someone is aware of what they can lose, they fight like rabid monsters in a way that inspires awe. Decimating troops has this effect, and is probably the most horribly existential punishment possible to the point where I would prefer to draw the short straw. This is a psychological boost that transhumans only get when confronted with final death, because at that moment they are also no more than mortal. If I was sending alphas out on suicide missions, I would rig the hosting brain by simply removing any understanding of death.
No matter how desperate and how hard they fight, they will never, ever be able to beat a foe with for all intents and purposes limitless numbers and vastly superior resources. Desperation does not equal ability . Decimation of troops worked because the enemies they were being forced to fight were of approximately equal ability/resources but much lower will to fight. The Jovians may have the will to fight that a decimated troop had, but they are not fighting a foe so far superior in abilities and resources as to make it look like a desperate primative taking on a A-10 with a spear chucker.
root wrote:
How many people is "decent chunk of collateral damage" such that collateral damage ≤ acceptable collateral damage?
A number where collateral damage < the amount of damage the Jovian's will do if left unchecked. If the Jovians are willing to just remain where they are and not threaten the rest of transhumanity, there is no reason for the rest of transhumanity to care about them. If, on the other hand, they decide to start sending out groups to destroy habitats they consider "evil" then they become a threat to be destroyed because they will do more damage by existing than with their death throes.
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Wed, 2010-12-22 16:07
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Quote:
The setting makes it pretty obvious that if an TITAN level threat makes a dedicated effort to wipe humanity out, the Jovian's children will be of no more use than the transhuman's backups and forks
Actually, that's not the complete picture. Synthmorphs and digital life during the Fall were heavily influenced by Exsurgent virus leading to bias against synths. It is also reflected by rules-it's deadly efficient to spread the virus or infect when it comes to digitial programs, plus it can hack them. Biological life is more resiliant towards its than its synthetic or digitial counterparts. This also btw goes against the concept of constantly forking soldiers and merging them-if you infect one of those soldiers with a virus or basilisk hack, than your whole army can be infected in short time.
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[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Wed, 2010-12-22 16:07
lucyfersam lucyfersam's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Quote:
The setting makes it pretty obvious that if an TITAN level threat makes a dedicated effort to wipe humanity out, the Jovian's children will be of no more use than the transhuman's backups and forks
Actually, that's not the complete picture. Synthmorphs and digital life during the Fall was heavily influenced by Exsurgent virus leading to bias against synths. It is also reflected by rules-it's deadly efficient to spread the virus or infect when it comes to digitial programs, plus it can hack them.
If your habitat falls in 10 minutes instead of 10 seconds, it still falls. Also, a synthmorph can turn off its inputs and be protected from nearly every iteration of the exsurgent virus. A biomorph has a lot more trouble dealing with an aural basilisk hack.
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Wed, 2010-12-22 17:53
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Quote:
If your habitat falls in 10 minutes instead of 10 seconds, it still falls
I doubt it would take that fast- biomorphs become contagious to others only after 12 hours actually, and in EP 10 minutes is a lot of time anyway. Digital life on the other hand is infected completely within 10 Action Turns.
Quote:
Also, a synthmorph can turn off its inputs and be protected from nearly every iteration of the exsurgent virus
Yes being in a coma is very helpful ;)
Quote:
A biomorph has a lot more trouble dealing with an aural basilisk hack.
According to what rules? Because basilisk hacks work against synthmorps and pods... The Rules are quite obvious that synths and digital life is very vulnerable to exsurgent virus...More than biological form.
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[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Wed, 2010-12-22 18:12
lucyfersam lucyfersam's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
It is trivial for a synth to turn off it's ears and wireless connection, rendering it immune to any viral transmission other than nanobots or visual basilisk attacks and still being a fairly functional character. A biological on the other hand may take longer to infect but has very few defenses against infection. Synths were easy to infect during the fall because they were all networked and unprepared. A prepared synth is harder to infect than a prepared bio simply because they can reduce the number of infection channels in ways a biomorph can't. Also, my 10 minutes was more about having them just wiped out by force rather than infected... And we've probably ranged off topic enough for this thread - may have to start a new one for this conversation.
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Wed, 2010-12-22 21:09
root root's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
root@Making the Jovians non-stupid [hr] Alright, so for those of you who don't buy my claims that a fierce flame to hatred is enough to float the Jovians along in the face of transhuman expansion, what would you consider the minimum adoption of transhuman technology that would be needed for the Jovians to adapt and survive with the rest of transhumanity?
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Wed, 2010-12-22 22:05
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
root wrote:
root@Making the Jovians non-stupid [hr] Alright, so for those of you who don't buy my claims that a fierce flame to hatred is enough to float the Jovians along in the face of transhuman expansion, what would you consider the minimum adoption of transhuman technology that would be needed for the Jovians to adapt and survive with the rest of transhumanity?
They need to get their hands on a Gate. Transhumanity is spreading out. Population growth will mean nothing if the rest of the race has the rest of the galaxy (and beyond).
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Thu, 2010-12-23 00:38
root root's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
root@Making the Jovians non-stupid [hr]
CodeBreaker wrote:
root wrote:
Alright, so for those of you who don't buy my claims that a fierce flame to hatred is enough to float the Jovians along in the face of transhuman expansion, what would you consider the minimum adoption of transhuman technology that would be needed for the Jovians to adapt and survive with the rest of transhumanity?
They need to get their hands on a Gate. Transhumanity is spreading out. Population growth will mean nothing if the rest of the race has the rest of the galaxy (and beyond).
Isn't that somewhat more goal oriented than evolution usually is? There is an implicit assumption that the rest of the race having the rest of the galaxy precludes the Jovians existing there too. After all, since the trashumans think of themselves as gods, wouldn't it be more fun to bring along your pet populace? There is no need for the extinction of the humans if the transhumans know they will never have to fear from them.
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Thu, 2010-12-23 09:07
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Again I'm not debating weather transhumanity will survive some external threat that is more then likely coming, or that certain groups will have a better chance then others. I'm pointing out that the Jovians will have more children then any other tranhuman group (with maybe the exception of the Ultimates and Scum). The Jovians are also not restricted on the number of morphs they can create as every new Jovian child comes with its own morph (the joy of doing it the old fashion way). When you alpha fork you need to first create the morph to put it in. I believe the only chance transhumanity has in surviving the coming extinction, is to put aside its differences, stop fighting itself, and work towards the greater good.
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Thu, 2010-12-23 10:05
lucyfersam lucyfersam's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Your right on the bit about transhumanity needs to stop fighting itself, but I would say the best way to move forward is in fact for the rest of the solar system to utterly ignore the Junta and leave them on their own to focus on surviving. It's great to say "we should all fight together for the greater good," but it doesn't work so well when 2 major mindsets have nearly diametrically opposed ideas of what "the greater good" is. The only thing the Jovians need to do to survive alongside the rest of transhumanity is to not threaten or attack them. A gate would be useful for their survival should an attack come, but not that useful as anyone who attacks them will likely be able to track them through the gate as well. Unfortunately for their long term survival, they are zealots who can't resist the urge to threaten and rattle their sabers towards the rest of transhumanity. If they don't bring that urge in check before they start a full on war, they don't stand much of a chance. As far as their population and children coming with their own morph, I would hazard that it takes considerably more resources to raise a child from birth to functional member of society than it does to make a morph. Population growth will most likely be a function of resources for all groups, so the question becomes what are the Jovian's resources to sustain a population growth such as you predict for them. If they are able to access and accumulate resources at a considerably greater rate than the rest of the system, they will have a higher population growth - but I'm not sure that's likely. When it comes to how to handle their presentation in the game, I'm for keeping the angry, authoritarian society that rules through fear and a propaganda driven hatred of the demons in the rest of the system. That their cast of heroes includes many old Earth dictators and conservative politicians works fine - with a little polishing any historical figure can be made to look good (alright, some require a lot of polishing, but if you pick and choose the parts you want and invent others as needed even Hitler can be made into a hero of the people).
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Thu, 2010-12-23 10:48
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Quote:
what would you consider the minimum adoption of transhuman technology that would be needed for the Jovians to adapt and survive with the rest of transhumanity?
Reading the Gatecrashing I would say-don't use the Gates :) Launch slow-colony-ships towards interstellar space with habitable interior and stay hidden-from time to time create new ones to multiply using outer environments of solar systems similar to Oort Cloud. Of course this is a very long term plan :)
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[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Thu, 2010-12-23 10:57
lucyfersam lucyfersam's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Quote:
what would you consider the minimum adoption of transhuman technology that would be needed for the Jovians to adapt and survive with the rest of transhumanity?
Reading the Gatecrashing I would say-don't use the Gates :) Launch slow-colony-ships towards interstellar space with habitable interior and stay hidden-from time to time create new ones to multiply using outer environments of solar systems similar to Oort Cloud. Of course this is a very long term plan :)
This is in fact the best (possibly only) long term survival plan for any and all transhuman groups, not just the Jovians... The gates are awesome and a treasure trove of knowledge, space, artifacts, and resources for those that use them, but they do nothing to decrease the extinction threat to humanity from a TITAN scale foe. I wonder if the Factors are the offspring of the tiny segment of their species that took this option...
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Thu, 2010-12-23 11:50
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
lucyfersam wrote:
The only thing the Jovians need to do to survive alongside the rest of transhumanity is to not threaten or attack them
Define 'survive'. I don't think the Jovians consider 'transhuman petpet' an acceptable end-game scenario.
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Fri, 2010-12-24 01:17
Shark_Sandwich Shark_Sandwich's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
root wrote:
root@Making the Jovians non-stupid [hr] Alright, so for those of you who don't buy my claims that a fierce flame to hatred is enough to float the Jovians along in the face of transhuman expansion, what would you consider the minimum adoption of transhuman technology that would be needed for the Jovians to adapt and survive with the rest of transhumanity?
Much of the discussion here has been about armies. But, as England and the United States have proven, if you can't land your army on the "shores" of your opponent, your army is useless. So the first priority would be space warfare systems. This topic has been discussed in other threads in more detail, but hauling a big armada of transports to Jupiter is probably going to be a difficult and expensive proposition. Jupiter would also be disadvantageous to the attacker since you have to manuver through Jupiter's powerful gravity well. If the Jovians had technological parity with other system powers in space warfare, they are probably invulnerable except in the face of a coordinated effort from several other factions (which is unlikely in light of the political and social disagreements between them), or the full efforts of the Consortium (which is profitable for the hypercorps how?) The second danger you need to guard against is a sneak attack, either through direct infiltration or through electronic means. To stop that, you have to be paranoid (check), have to be willing to monitor and censor electronic contact with the rest of the system (check), you have to not care too much about civil rights (check), and you have to have top of the line data mining and monitoring systems. Think of the U.S. NSA and all of their surveillance programs, monitoring other people's traffic to determine potential threats. That way, the Jovian intelligence apparatus is able to be warned of an incoming threat before it happens, so it can ready a defense. I am sure Jovian computer systems are designed to be completely cut from the outside at a moments notice (if for no other reason than fear of TITAN attack). What the Jovians can't make for itself in the computer realm, they can always get from the autonomists via open source, or steal from the hypercorps (think the Soviet Union during the Cold War). Keep in mind that their potential opponents have mostly removed the greatest potential weapon in the computer world from their arsenals, AGIs. That taboo will limit the ability of the other powers to far exceed Jovian technology. In the long run, 200 years or so, the Jovians probably can't keep up. But, to mangle an economics axiom, the Jovians believe in the long run everyone else will be dead, since they will blow themselves up or get eaten by the TITANs or whatever. It seems to me they are in a pretty defensible position right now.
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Fri, 2010-12-24 12:30
Rhyx Rhyx's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Quote:
I don't think the Jovians consider 'transhuman petpet' an acceptable end-game scenario.
What about Homo Sapiens natural preserve? Would that be an acceptable scenario?
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Fri, 2010-12-24 12:51
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
lucyfersam wrote:
Your right on the bit about transhumanity needs to stop fighting itself, but I would say the best way to move forward is in fact for the rest of the solar system to utterly ignore the Junta and leave them on their own to focus on surviving. It's great to say "we should all fight together for the greater good," but it doesn't work so well when 2 major mindsets have nearly diametrically opposed ideas of what "the greater good" is. The only thing the Jovians need to do to survive alongside the rest of transhumanity is to not threaten or attack them. A gate would be useful for their survival should an attack come, but not that useful as anyone who attacks them will likely be able to track them through the gate as well. Unfortunately for their long term survival, they are zealots who can't resist the urge to threaten and rattle their sabers towards the rest of transhumanity. If they don't bring that urge in check before they start a full on war, they don't stand much of a chance. As far as their population and children coming with their own morph, I would hazard that it takes considerably more resources to raise a child from birth to functional member of society than it does to make a morph. Population growth will most likely be a function of resources for all groups, so the question becomes what are the Jovian's resources to sustain a population growth such as you predict for them. If they are able to access and accumulate resources at a considerably greater rate than the rest of the system, they will have a higher population growth - but I'm not sure that's likely. When it comes to how to handle their presentation in the game, I'm for keeping the angry, authoritarian society that rules through fear and a propaganda driven hatred of the demons in the rest of the system. That their cast of heroes includes many old Earth dictators and conservative politicians works fine - with a little polishing any historical figure can be made to look good (alright, some require a lot of polishing, but if you pick and choose the parts you want and invent others as needed even Hitler can be made into a hero of the people).
Each faction has something to add. The Jovians represent the untouched human side of transhumanity and as such can act as the "reset" button if transhumanity needs to get untouched human genetic code. They also have a survival instinct that is unmatched by any other faction (with maybe the exception of the Ultimates and Scum).
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Sat, 2010-12-25 16:16
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Rhyx wrote:
Quote:
I don't think the Jovians consider 'transhuman petpet' an acceptable end-game scenario.
What about Homo Sapiens natural preserve? Would that be an acceptable scenario?
What do you think? The "transhumanity is going to extinguish itself through its foolish meddling, so we should quarantine and wait them out" is the best line of thought I've seen so far for why the Jovians shouldn't take an aggressive, militaristic policy against its neighbors. However, it spins on the assumption that all the rest of transhumanity can be properly quarantined, that their meddling with TITANs and grey goo can be contained. Seems a dangerous proposition. (And Merry Christmas)
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Sun, 2010-12-26 13:39
Demonseed Elite Demonseed Elite's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
I also heavily re-imagine the Jovian Republic in my setting in an effort to make them more believable and less two-dimensional. My vision for the Jovians mirrors what some people have said here about their "society of survivalists." The Jovians, in my view, are people who have not forgotten the Fall and in fact have built their entire society as a reaction to it. Not unlike Israel and how remembrance of the Holocaust still shapes their society and policy. I also don't tend to look down the future at the Jovians. It's possible that they can not survive the rapid singularity of technology that transhuman society has embraced. But I just think about them now. After all, the exhumans would argue that all of transhumanity is not living up to their potential and have no hope of keeping up. Ultimates have a similar view. It doesn't make the Jovians any less potentially interesting in the here and now. One of the first things I did was throw out the silly habitat names. Instead, Jovian habitats tend to be named after fondly remembered places from Earth, or after modern heroes from the Fall and the difficult times immediately afterward. Hero worship is a big deal in Jovian society; war heroes and transformative politicians are nearly revered. Without widespread use of resleeving, immortality in Jovian society is established through the legacy you leave in your life. So those legacies are celebrated. I also wrote up some notes for a religion common among the people of the Jovian Republic, a sort of descendant of Judeo-Christian religions that heavily features an apocalyptic view (influenced heavily by the Fall) and legions of angels that are revered by the people. Much like saints in many South American flavors of Catholicism.
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"It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." --The White Queen, [i]Through The Looking-Glass[/i] [img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_zGgz13n3uzE/TWWPdvGig-I/AAAAAAAACI8/y...
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Sun, 2010-12-26 14:44
LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
[i]"Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden. He drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."[/i] -- The Conclave Bible [i]"Out of the very Apocalypse our people fled, to this new world among the stars. If among you fear that God has forgotten us, do not be deceived. How could we have survived at all, unless the Lord had kept us in the palm of His hand? Surely we are here because we are destined to obey His will and fulfill His purpose."[/i] -- Sister Miriam Godwinson, [i]"But for the Grace of God"[/i] [i]"The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesteryear. But it was never the streets that were evil."[/i] -- Sister Miriam Godwinson, [i]"The Blessed Struggle"[/i] [i]"And the Lord God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever, we must send him forth." Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."[/i] -- The Conclave Bible [i]"And what of the immortal soul in such transactions? Can this machine transmit and reattach it as well? Or is it lost forever, leaving a soulless body to wander the world in despair?"[/i] -- Sister Miriam Godwinson, [i]"We Must Dissent"[/i] [i]"Already we have turned all of our critical industries, all of our material resources, over to these...things...these lumps of silver and paste we call nanorobots. And now we propose to teach them intelligence? What, pray tell, will we do when these little homunculi awaken one day announce that they have no further need for us?"[/i] -- Sister Miriam Godwinson, [i]"We must Dissent"[/i] [i]"The tragedy of Earth is not that so many died. Death is an invevitable part of life. The tragedy is that so many died as victims. When the crisis came, they were helpless, unable to use their deaths to by anything of value. Millions of otherwise intelligent people had been tricked into ignoring a fundemental truth: that no man has any rights if he is unable to personally defend them."[/i] -- Colonel Corazon Santiago, [i]"Planet: A Survivalist's Guide"[/i] [i]"Man has killed man from the beginning of time, and each new frontier has brought new ways and new places to die. Why should the future be different?"[/i] -- Col. Corazon Santiago, [i]"Planet: A Survivalist's Guide"[/i] [i]"Proper care and education for our children remains a cornerstone of our entire colonization effort. Children not only shape our future; they determine in many ways our present. Men and women work harder knowing their children are safe and close at hand. And never forget that, with children present, parents will defend their home to the death."[/i] -- Col. Corazon Santiago, [i]"Planet: A Survivalist's Guide"[/i] These two pretty much summarise my view on the Republic.
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@-rep +2 C-rep +1
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Sun, 2010-12-26 17:23
Shark_Sandwich Shark_Sandwich's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
I love the analogy of the Israelis to the Jovians. I would imagine monuments to those lost in the Fall in every Republic habitat, as well as the equivalent of the SHOAH Project, to record the survivors' stories of the Fall. This could be a great hook for intelligence operations (some of those stories may be of interest to various factions seeking information about TITAN technology, or perhaps some people don't want their activities during the Fall to come to light). An unrelated thought--the Republic probably finds the Consortium and LLA's use of infogees to be just as abhorrent as the Autonomists do, if for different reasons. Those that died in the Fall are likely seen as the honored dead by the Jovians, and to profit from them on any level is a descration of their memory. In addition, many of the hypercorps probably were involved in convincing people to upload themselves as infogees in the first place, offering them the "false hope" (from a Jovian perspective) of survival. It is sort of like the reaction people had to Ted Williams having his head cryogenically preserved after death, if you add the additional element of the cryogenics firm selling his head to someone else to use as a soccer ball. If you are willing to share, I would love to see your notes on Jovian religious ideas. One thing that might be interesting is the idea of the Fall as a parallel to the Flood of Noah or the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah--God punishing humanity for its hubris in attempting to claim the power of life and death for itself. Or, the Fall as one of the signs of the Apocalypse in the Book of Revelation. Or, even better, the current era is the reign of the Beast, and the Jovian Republic represents the righteous that are going to reign for 1000 years after the final victory of Christ and the coming of a new heaven and a new earth. This wouldn't represent the beliefs of all Jovians, but it would be an interesting small group.
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Sun, 2010-12-26 17:32
Demonseed Elite Demonseed Elite's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
+1 C-Rep for LatwPIAT I love the quotes.
—
"It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." --The White Queen, [i]Through The Looking-Glass[/i] [img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_zGgz13n3uzE/TWWPdvGig-I/AAAAAAAACI8/y...
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Sun, 2010-12-26 17:37
Demonseed Elite Demonseed Elite's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Shark_Sandwich wrote:
If you are willing to share, I would love to see your notes on Jovian religious ideas. One thing that might be interesting is the idea of the Fall as a parallel to the Flood of Noah or the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah--God punishing humanity for its hubris in attempting to claim the power of life and death for itself. Or, the Fall as one of the signs of the Apocalypse in the Book of Revelation. Or, even better, the current era is the reign of the Beast, and the Jovian Republic represents the righteous that are going to reign for 1000 years after the final victory of Christ and the coming of a new heaven and a new earth. This wouldn't represent the beliefs of all Jovians, but it would be an interesting small group.
I will work on putting my notes together and then I'll post them. :)
—
"It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." --The White Queen, [i]Through The Looking-Glass[/i] [img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_zGgz13n3uzE/TWWPdvGig-I/AAAAAAAACI8/y...
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Sun, 2010-12-26 18:39
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Quote:
The Planetary Consortium also has TITAN scientists (probably more then the Jovians) so you shouldn't stereotype the Jovians with the people directly involved with the Fall.
Not likely,the Jovian Republic comes from prople that created the TITANs. This could be very well played game-wise and I hope this will be used in gaming material on the Republic once it is published.
—
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Mon, 2010-12-27 11:19
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Quote:
The Planetary Consortium also has TITAN scientists (probably more then the Jovians) so you shouldn't stereotype the Jovians with the people directly involved with the Fall.
Not likely,the Jovian Republic comes from prople that created the TITANs. This could be very well played game-wise and I hope this will be used in gaming material on the Republic once it is published.
It was my understanding that the TITANs were developed by several countries at the same time (not just the USA) and as such all the former super states of Earth helped in the destruction of humanity. When these individuals fled to the stars, they went to a number of different factions (but mostly the Planetary Consortium and the Jovian Republic.
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Mon, 2010-12-27 11:33
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Quote:
It was my understanding that the TITANs were developed by several countries at the same time (not just the USA)
Spoilers bewareeeeee! ************************************************** According to the rulebook-United States Department of Defense created them as USA sought to find ways to stop its decline. Initially they only worked on defense. Page 354. But the Fall isn't their doing-they just speeded it up once due to international conflicts their full capabilities became active. And since Jovian Republic both houses former USA and Pan-American groups, as well as RAND scientists that work on "defensive projects"-I guess it kind of figures that those TITAN scientists are quite likely there...
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[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Mon, 2010-12-27 23:59
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
For ideas on making the jovians "non stupid" one may wish to look up how the "Solomani" (Terran human supremacists) are portrayed in the grandfather of all SFRPGs, "Traveller". Traveller has had like 30 years to work on how to portray bigoted racists in a plausible fashion in a SFRPG setting. One idea to work with is that the junta controls ALL media in the jovian system, and thus can lie to the people as they please. The citizens are perhaps not stupid, just fearful and misinformed by a calculating regime that uses lies and distortions to mold public opinion. Just look at how the nazis lied to the german people once media domination was established, or how "fox news" lies to americans today. Here's a quote from Hermann Goering on how to manipulate and mislead the public and force it to do what the leaders want even if the public does not want to: "Göring spoke about war and extreme nationalism to Captain Gilbert, as recorded in Gilbert's Nuremberg Diary: Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." (Reminds me of what happened in america from, say 2002-2009, actually.) So we see the jovians are perhaps not innately evil themselves, but lied to and fearful for their safety and their children's safety. It's understandable for a parent to fear and hate anything that they've been lead to believe is a threat to their children. Also remember that most jovies have NEVER met a non human, they only have what they've been told by their leaders to go on, so they may well believe that trasnhumans eat human babies or some such thing. The jovies that are sent out to encounter transhumans are only sent out after long, heavy indoctrination and such.
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"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

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Tue, 2010-12-28 01:02
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
It that must not be named wrote:
Just look at ... how "fox news" lies to americans today.
Actually, it doesn't; [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8KHOgyYyHQ]the study[/url] that said that "Fox News viewers are the most misinformed of all news viewers" was poorly done. I'll just ignore the comparison between America and Nazi Germany, for obvious reasons; it's just blatant trolling.
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+1 r-Rep , +1 @-rep

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Tue, 2010-12-28 08:23
Demonseed Elite Demonseed Elite's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Still, he does have a valid point that anyone living in modern America can pretty easily see how government policy can be built on fear. And when humanity experiences something like the Fall--the total destruction of the entire homeworld--it is not unreasonable to imagine a population that would willingly embrace strong leaders, even if they didn't have complete control of the media. The solar system is a scary place in Eclipse Phase (it's a setting of conspiracy and horror, after all) and the Jovian citizenry just wants to be safe.
—
"It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." --The White Queen, [i]Through The Looking-Glass[/i] [img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_zGgz13n3uzE/TWWPdvGig-I/AAAAAAAACI8/y...
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Tue, 2010-12-28 12:14
Camwyn Camwyn's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Quote:
One idea to work with is that the junta controls ALL media in the jovian system
As humanity becomes more reliant on information (broadcast, mesh, web, etc, etc) they also become more ensnared by it...and more subject to influence by it. I could actually see them (the Junta) having several gov't run news services that take different stances, but all info passed through them is spun first (as in spin doctor) so that even those who are dissatisfied with the Junta are being molded by it. I imagine the equivalent of "rebel" Jovians huddled around radios for the "pirate broadcasts" that are actually gov't programs if you cut through the layers. Of course, the Junta would have to allow for some actual reporting and news to get through...but cherry-picking stories and making things up to point all the "rebels" the direction they want them to go. The Junta may be "the bad guys" but they're not stupid...in fact to do as well as they have and continue to do so they're most likely the canniest folks on the block.
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Tue, 2010-12-28 12:35
Loyal Citizen Loyal Citizen's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Quote:
what would you consider the minimum adoption of transhuman technology that would be needed for the Jovians to adapt and survive with the rest of transhumanity?
Reading the Gatecrashing I would say-don't use the Gates :) Launch slow-colony-ships towards interstellar space with habitable interior and stay hidden-from time to time create new ones to multiply using outer environments of solar systems similar to Oort Cloud. Of course this is a very long term plan :)
Amen to that. :bigsmile:
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Tue, 2010-12-28 16:30
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
root wrote:
root@Making the Jovians non-stupid [hr] Alright, so for those of you who don't buy my claims that a fierce flame to hatred is enough to float the Jovians along in the face of transhuman expansion, what would you consider the minimum adoption of transhuman technology that would be needed for the Jovians to adapt and survive with the rest of transhumanity?
The nazis tried running on a fierce flame of hate, and it worked while they were rolling over countries unprepared to fight or countries too far behind them militarily to fight. Kind of failed once they ran into someone willing anfd able to fight, like russia.
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"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

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Tue, 2010-12-28 16:34
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
doublepost, ignore.
—
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
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Tue, 2010-12-28 16:34
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
damn, copy post, ignore.
—
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
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Tue, 2010-12-28 16:40
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
nick012000 wrote:
It that must not be named wrote:
Just look at ... how "fox news" lies to americans today.
Actually, it doesn't; [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8KHOgyYyHQ]the study[/url] that said that "Fox News viewers are the most misinformed of all news viewers" was poorly done. I'll just ignore the comparison between America and Nazi Germany, for obvious reasons; it's just blatant trolling.
No, if you look at what the bush regime did after 911 to get us into iraq, it was exactly what goerring described, verbatim. If an event like 911 could let evil, ideological leaders do what they did to america, think of what an event like the fall of earth would make it possible for evil, ideological leaders to do in the jovian system. As to claiming the study that showed fox news viewers were misinformed was flawed, I think the only flaw the critics were concerned about was it wasn't done by a far right organization.
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"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

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Tue, 2010-12-28 18:00
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Please, no Bush,Nazi,Fox discussion, it will ruin the thread and lead to nothing productive :(
—
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Tue, 2010-12-28 18:01
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Please, no Bush,Nazi,Fox discussion, it will ruin the thread and lead to nothing productive :(
—
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Tue, 2010-12-28 22:55
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Wow, it seems like several people are having double posting problems I was one, now I see anoter. Is there a board problem, of just some ISP glitches?
—

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

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Wed, 2011-12-14 20:14
travelnjones travelnjones's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Well how about something where the zeroes rather than nothings are maintained by the government as a fail safe. They have very ordered lives and are almost raised in guild structures like in Dune. Some of them are physically trained to perfection as warriors other may be time compressed educated. In each aspect they are forced into some aspect of highest peaks of human achievement. The goal being to maintain the best of the human race. Perhaps there are even high ranking zeroes in the Government. That would be something odd for the players to deal with a zero with significant power to ruin their lives. Even as an npc it would probably be interesting for the players to deal with a character that doesn't have the mesh.
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Thu, 2011-12-15 08:25
Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
travelnjones wrote:
Even as an npc it would probably be interesting for the players to deal with a character that doesn't have the mesh.
You don't need to be a Zero for that. Mesh inserts can be removed with ease from any morph, and you can cover all their uses with ectos (but for the medical sensors, but I suppose you can keep those). So I bet people with sensible information resorts to that as an additional security measure. There is an example of that in Ghost In the Shell, by the way (both the movie and the manga, but in the movie it hasn't been explained. The engineer who breaks his hands into lots of "fingers" to type rather quickly after they first capture project 2501 would be that).
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Thu, 2011-12-15 18:37
Cifer Cifer's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
As a new-time EPer, this topic was among the first ones I stumbled over in the book. Jovians do look rather cartoonish from their first write-up - hurr-durr, we're the stupid-evil-intolerant guys, we don't do transhumanism and we hate you all because you do it. This thread has really given a new spin to my perception of them. Thank you all for that. As for the question of wars... denying person-to-person combat already is among the most important tactics. Next up would IMO be bringing the transhumans down to your level as much as possible, meaning they must not be able to learn from their deaths. Any cortical stack found will be introduced to high energy emissions, any battlefield from which Jovian wounded have been recovered will be sterilised. Other than that, building up your fleet, ensuring a possible lockdown on all communications and waiting for the second Fall seems like the most probable strategy.
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Sun, 2011-12-18 00:24
rfmcdonald rfmcdonald's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
"You are forgetting one simple thing, the longer something lives, the less it reproduces." It's not obvious to me that this is particularly relevant when it comes to transhuman demographics. If anything, transhumans arguably have the edge over natural-born humans. Unlike that of the beings who dominate the Jovian Republic, for instance, transhuman fertility is not limited to a narrow span of (say) three decades between youth and old age but is rather lifelong. The major investments in time and money and effort involved in childrearing can be spaced out quite effectively. "The Jovians will always have more children and have a faster growing population then any other transhuman population." It's not obvious that the average Jovian will have more children in the Jovian's relatively short window of fertility than the average transhuman will have in its indefinite window of fertility. It's certainly obvious that Jovians, unlike transhumans, couldn't double their numbers by copying themselves and downloading themselves into new morphs. You limit your analysis of transhuman demographics to the realm of the physical, a decided mistake. Demographics isn't just the realm of the biologically possibie; demographics deals with how individuals, and cultures, decide to deal with their biological constraints, with the realm of the cultural. Yes, fear of loss of species and individual identity is an issue, but are young Jovians necessarily going to put up with permanent death when there are other civilizations nearby where death can be just a minor bother? The strains of Jovian bioconservative ideology which condemn each and every Jovian to unnecessary death are going to be strongly selected against. Can you get a coherent Jovian bioconservative ideology going, one that doesn't commit itself blindly to the limits of the unmodified human body but one that also doesn't reject the human body as superfluous? Sure. It's going to require significant shifts in official Jovian policy, however.
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Sun, 2011-12-18 00:39
rfmcdonald rfmcdonald's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
" Even if you look at humans today, in nations with higher life expectancy rates, parents are having fewer children, and they are having them later in life (India being the only exception to this)." Actually, this isn't the case in the way you portray it. Yes, the tendency worldwide is for people to become parents at later and later dates. Falls in completed fertility, however, are not inevitable, many societies (France, Sweden) seeing potential parents instead having similar numbers of children as earlier generations but simply putting it off until later, with fertility consequently being at replacement levels. In some cases, total fertility falls quite short of replacement levels because of conservative gender mores which don't let women reconcile work and family and so lead many women to not become parents (German-speaking Europe comes particularly to mind). In other cases, total fertility falls short of replacement because, irrespective of gender mores, the economic costs involved in becoming parents forces the postponement of parenthood to later ages and circumstances where fertility can't be fully recuperated (southern Europe comes to mind, here). By the present of Eclipse Phase, the existence of cultural and technological fixes for fertility (briefly, being very family- and woman-friendly and providing people with the sort of highly effectively reproductive medicine we know exists) will be commonplace. Even now, there has been some speculation about a "S-curve" in human fertility in highly-developed societies, the thesis being that a country's completed fertility will drop as it rises in its HDI ranking but that past a certain point (reflecting advances in economic and human development) it will start to recover. In the case of transhumans, as I pointed out briefly, it's not obvious that with effectively indefinite windows for fertility, the existence of extensive knowledge of the cultural norms necessary to make parenthood accessible to as many people as desired (I'd imagine Europe-derived Titan would be good for this), and the non-existence in new and even transitional economies of the economic disincentives to parenthood that exist in old economies like--oh--that of the Jovian Republic, transhumans wouldn't stand up to Jovian humans in terms of reproductive fitness. If anything, I'd argue that transhumans are _better_ suited, are _more_ likely to have more children over longer periods of time, than their Jovian counterparts.
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