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Love the Game, Hate the Chargen

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voidstate voidstate's picture
Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
Everyone's charged up about a new campaign. Eclipse Phase looks interesting and fun, and it's all new and shiny. We sit down to make up characters and... 4 hours later we've just about finished. Apart from weapons and armour. Seriously - there's too much point juggling - and each time you spend, there's a little bit of maths to do (what's the starting attribute?, how many of these ranks cost double?, is it halved/doubled because I'm an AI?). And that was without a couple of players who couldn't make it - so when we actually play next week they're going to be sitting there doing maths for the first few hours rather than roleplaying. OK. Whine over. I think there's probably an elegant solution for this. Something like skill packages. How about if for the 400 points you had to spend on Active Skills, you just chose 4 skill packages, each of which contained 100 points. So, for example, you might have: [b]Martial Artist[/b] Unarmed Combat: 40 Fray: 40 Clubs or Blades: 20 Perception: 10 Interest (Martial Arts): 10 And you could do something similar for Knowledge skills. Instead of 300 points, you choose three educational focuses which would say something like: [b]Professional Training[/b] Profession: [Your job] 40 Profession: [related job] 20 Interest: [Whatever got you into this profession] 40 So while you still have to choose the exact area, you get pointers to get you halfway there. There could be ones for things like: Slacker Humanities Academic Artist Sportsperson Social Scientist Material Scientist Hacker Military Cadet Business Person Computer Artist Anarchist Agitator etc... If you did this, there's only be 300 points to juggle, not 1000 and character generation would be much more streamlined and you'd be adding flavour to your character with each group you picked. What do you guys think? Worth expanding upon? Any potential problems?
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
Actually this looks more complicated than the original system to me...And also quite bland. Wouldn't the characters look like clones rather than unique individuals?
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
I think Eclipse Phase could benefit from the PACKs system similar to the ones that are being written by SR, however I honestly think that the problem with EP character gen right now is that you really, *REALLY* need to follow the order that is presented in the books for it to go smoothly. If you even look at stuff before you are meant to you begin fiddling with stuff you have already done, and it all goes to hell. The trouble with a PACKs system for EP though is that the CP Cost of skills is dependant on what your Aptitudes are. That 60+ being double thing really gets in the way of things. Any skill bonus from a PACK would either have to be under 30, so that it can never push a skill above the 60 limit, or you would have to do skills first and then aptitudes or something. And thats ignoring the fact that if you are an AGI its even more complicated. Every skill package that contained any of the skills they get reduced would have to have a seperate AGI version with a different cost. EDIT: If it was really, really annoying you might wanna look at doing the other characters during the week using the spreadsheet that is out there. I dont use it, but I have heard it really helps those who have. It will also calculate all the math in the right order, so you dont need to remember if the +10 COG bonus you get from your Menton morph is applied to your skills before or after you start buying them (Its after, if you are curious). EDIT2: The game gets very much easier after Char Gen by the way. The System tends to blend into the background and you can really get some good play out of it. Keep at it, you will not regret it.
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Demonseed Elite Demonseed Elite's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
I recently messaged Ancient History on these forums tossing around the idea of a variant of [url=http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Docs/PACKS_Platinum.pdf]P.A.C.K.S[/url] for Eclipse Phase. I don't think I totally sold him on it, but I could see the value of it for some people. I personally wouldn't use it for PCs because I love crunchy character generation, but I'd find it really helpful for quickly creating antagonists. EDIT: Hah, great minds think alike, Codebreaker! ;) EDIT: Damn, I didn't think of the extra high skill value costs. Yeah, that does make a PACKS system difficult.
"It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." --The White Queen, [i]Through The Looking-Glass[/i] [img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_zGgz13n3uzE/TWWPdvGig-I/AAAAAAAACI8/y...
voidstate voidstate's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
Those PACKS are exactly what I was thinking of. Well, the profiles bit anyway. However, I can see that the points doubling after 60 is the stumbling block. Maybe just select all the skill packages/packs, add attributes, then take each skill over 60 and half the amount it exceeds 60 by. So if you have a skill at 80, you'd reduce it to 70 (the excess is 20, divide that by 2 equals 10, subtract it). Still some maths involved but just once for each skill over 60.
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
I'm already in the sketching phase of re-creating PACKs for EP. Still need a workaround on Codebreakers mentioned problems, though. Thinking about just creating them as suggestions or complete with aptitudes.
Prime Mover Prime Mover's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
Just two things. 1.They should move mention of minimum skill expenditures to earlier in char gen. Not a big deal after you do it once, can be frustrating first time. 2. The gear index linked here on the forums are a big help. With only one Pdf at our last game and one hardcopy, char gen equip purchasing took up the longest chunk of time.
"The difference between truth and fiction, people expect fiction to make sense."
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
I think Gear PACKs would be a hell of a lot easier to do than Skill/Aptitude ones. You don't have to worry about things like skill costs, everything is set, and it is already done at the end of everything else so its just a matter of checking how much CP you have left and how much the package would cost.
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SJE SJE's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
I'd love an Ipadd char gen App which I could then use in play (and quickly resleeve or fork). That would be cool. SJE
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
EP is definitely a game which benefits from having a computer handy. Chargen is a bear to do by hand, but very quick and easy if you use the excel character sheets listed under the resources tab on the game website. IMO, they should be packaged and included with every copy of the book.
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
I think it would benefit the EP community if the bottlenecks in the Chargen could be minimized. For me I find that equipment really doesn't matter much in EP (not as much as in SR or a similar game anyway) so why do I have to spend the better part of 30 min buying gear. It would be easier if each morph had a standard equipment load out that came with it, plus equipment kits were created so you just bought the kit that best fit your character (reducing the time selecting gear). I find with most of the scenarios I run, for the sake of convenience, any time a player has to farcast, I just have the waiting morph have all the same equipment as the one they left behind. This handwavium makes life soooooo much easier for me as a GM. If morphs came with standard kit then I could say your now in a __________ morph and the players would know what equipment comes with the morph and could buy extra equipment as needed. Farcasting is suppose to make equipment disposable at best and possessions less important then your Rep and Credits.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
icekatze icekatze's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
hi hi The thing that is nice about having basic lists already figured out is that the starting players can get their character figured out quickly and the players that are interested and knowledgeable in customization can still pick up extra pieces. New players have it easy, advanced players can still customize... Two, the two things that are nice about basic lists are that starting players have a easy to understand platform, but it doesn't need to hinder advanced players and it can help the GM with making NPCs too... The three things that are nice about basic lists are helping starting players, advanced players can ignore them, GM's have some quick tools and they can give you a feeling for what counts as normal in the setting... Amongst the many benefits of pre-generated skill and gear lists are... oh nevermind. ----- Seriously though, one way you could handle packs is to have a basic list of skills and things, but leave some points left over for the players to spend on two or three skills they think are going to be core to their character concept. That makes most of the process easier and still leaves room for character customization. Perhaps someone can make a list of brand name morphs that have specific customizations built in by default?
Demonseed Elite Demonseed Elite's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
The packs aren't designed to eat up all your points. Basically they are frameworks that spend some of your points to create a certain portion of your character quickly and easily. The problem to tackle is that the packs cost a certain amount of customization points. But the way EP character creation is handled, a pack of skills could cost more or less depending on if those skills end up going above 60, which is going to depend on your aptitudes, background, and faction. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if you package background, faction, aptitudes, and skills into one pack and keep morph and gear as a separate pack, you can address the skill cost issue, can't you? Because morph bonuses do not affect the costs of buying aptitudes and skills during character creation (pg. 136, EP Core, under Starting Morph). Now if someone has leftover CP after buying an Ego pack and a Morph/Gear pack and they want to raise those skills or their aptitudes, they'll have to figure in the extra costs. Which is going to require a bit of number-crunching (especially if boosting an aptitude takes skills over 60), but the packs have at least sped up character creation.
"It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." --The White Queen, [i]Through The Looking-Glass[/i] [img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_zGgz13n3uzE/TWWPdvGig-I/AAAAAAAACI8/y...
voidstate voidstate's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
There are 3 stumbling blocks as far as I can see: 1. Skills double in cost over 60. 2. Skills start at their attribute value so you couldn't just ensure no combination of ego packs exceeds 60. In fact an attribute at 40 and +20 from a background/faction could mean you were over 60 before you even spent a single point. 3. Infomorphs get some skills at half or double cost. The only solution I can see is to apply packs but keep a note of the skill before any packs are applied, then divide the excess over 60 by 2. Packs could have 2 costs: one for infomorphs, one for everyone else. Or maybe infomorphs could just have their own ego packs. I stil think this would make chargen quicker than it is currently.
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
Personally I don't see character creation as a big issue. After you've created 4-5 character's on paper you end up doing the addition/subtraction automatically and you'll end up building PACS in your head for any particular archetype. I've gotten to the point where I'll think of a concept while I'm working and then just come home and write it down. Takes about 20 mins. IMHO the EP CG system is a [u]hell[/u] of a lot nicer than thinking of a character then having to search through 7 diferent books in a Class/Level system to try to find a multiclass option that fits the character I want to play. Once you're conversant with the system it fades to background.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
OneTrikPony wrote:
Personally I don't see character creation as a big issue. After you've created 4-5 character's on paper you end up doing the addition/subtraction automatically and you'll end up building PACS in your head for any particular archetype. I've gotten to the point where I'll think of a concept while I'm working and then just come home and write it down. Takes about 20 mins. IMHO the EP CG system is a [u]hell[/u] of a lot nicer than thinking of a character then having to search through 7 diferent books in a Class/Level system to try to find a multiclass option that fits the character I want to play. Once you're conversant with the system it fades to background.
I personally have found the same thing, that with enough times through the character creation is becomes much easier. But that is mainly because you figure out which steps happen when, and how to add up all the math. A PACKs system is most useful for people new to the game, who have not had a chance to go over the CC a few times to figure it out. Sure, a GM can do so, but when you are trying to make five characters at once things tend to slow down even if you are experienced with it. The only way I can really see doing a PACKs system for EP is either redoing the CC system in such a way that it works with it, but still puts out characters that are about balanced with those made with the Core system, or to have each PACK contain the players base Aptitudes, Skills and Background/Faction. And if you are doing that you are basically just giving them one of the premade characters, which isn't really the point. Otherwise you just run into too many difficulties with the math. I shall have a further think about how you could rewrite the CC in such a way that PACKs would work but remain balanced, but so far I am at a loss.
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
There is one way that the PACKS system can be translated over easily: simply make it so that the individual skill packages are set up based on both theme AND aptitude. one package might contain all computer skills utilizing the COG aptitude, while another might contain social skills utilizing the SAV aptitude. By doing so, all skills will hit the taper point at the exact same time (as where the skill starts is based on what aptitude it is linked to).
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voidstate voidstate's picture
Re: Love the Game, Hate the Chargen
Wow - I had exactly the same idea last night while reading Shadowrun. Kinda obvious really.