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Just realized something about Luna

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MDFification MDFification's picture
Just realized something about Luna
The Lunar Regolith is composed of about 40% oxygen. The technology to extract this oxygen is simple, economic, and proven. Why then do they have such a problem with importing water? It's easy to make water out of hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrogen is cheap. Importing or producing hydrogen should be relatively cheap, and Luna can definitely finance it. So why are they paying to import a comet all the way from the kuiper to Luna? Why the implied future shortages? Basically I can't think of a reason that makes sense unless there's some sort of conspiracy. Maybe the PC is manipulating the economy to restrict hydrogen exports to Luna, or maybe some powers on Luna are actually interested in staging an 'accident' and dropping a comet onto Earth to destroy the remaining biosphere and discourage reclaimers. Either way, something's definately off about the Lunar Economy.
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MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Why is Hydrogen cheap on Luna
Why is Hydrogen cheap on Luna? In space, water is where you get your hydrogen. In fact, there's something called the 'container effect' - if you want to move hydrogen around, the best way to reduce volume is to bond it to oxygen.
MDFification MDFification's picture
Volume is less important in
Volume is less important in space than mass though. It'd be easier to fabricate a giant, lightweight storage tank than haul 1/3rd oxygen alongside your hydrogen. Hydrogen is readily available from the system's gas giants. So if Luna doesn't have any, it's because the Jovians or the Titanites are refusing to sell to them.
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LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
The giant, lightweight
The giant, lightweight storage tank is probably going to have a lot of mass because of how big it is.
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Bursting Eagern... Bursting Eagerness Soul's picture
LatwPIAT wrote:The giant,
LatwPIAT wrote:
The giant, lightweight storage tank is probably going to have a lot of mass because of how big it is.
Keep in mind that metallic hydrogen seems to be pretty simple to get in 10 AF. You might not need a massive tank, just a compressor and something that can hold metallic hydrogen.
In other words, firing off a laser with a sufficient TWR for the recoil to be noticeable would require a post-miracle-tech laser weighing less than a disposable plastic spoon and powerful enough to shoot down Death Stars? -- ShadowDragon8685
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Well, metallic hydrogen is
Well, metallic hydrogen is not necessarily a cost-effective way of transporting hydrogen specifically, as opposed to transporting fuel. You have to put a lot of energy into compressing it, then release that energy when you want the hydrogen back. And power is actually pretty cheap AF10 - everybody and their uncle has a fusion reactor, so mass doesn't matter that much in cost of transport. Then again, that means that metallic hydrogen might be okay after all... As far as mass/volume goes, large volumes mean you need bigger (hence heavier) tanks and it puts the structural forces in really weird spots during maneuvers because so much of the mass is out of line and can apply torque. Generally you want everything as tight in as possible.
Bursting Eagern... Bursting Eagerness Soul's picture
MAD Crab wrote:Generally you
MAD Crab wrote:
Generally you want everything as tight in as possible.
Hence compressing as much as possible. Which, to my knowledge, is metallic hydrogen.
In other words, firing off a laser with a sufficient TWR for the recoil to be noticeable would require a post-miracle-tech laser weighing less than a disposable plastic spoon and powerful enough to shoot down Death Stars? -- ShadowDragon8685
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Maybe they're not importing
Maybe they're not importing ice comets for the oxygen, MDFification, but for the hydrogen. As I understand things... The sun is a fan-fucking-tastic source of hydrogen, but as it's not conveniently bound to oxygen, transporting it is a bitch even without the whole fact that you'd have to somehow get it out of the sun and then pay the energy budget required to get it from the sun to Luna. Also, long-term ecologists will complain that every kiloton of hydrogen you remove from the sun is shortening the time until stellar collapse. In short, it's not economically viable. Mercury has some water to exploit, in the permanently-darkened northern craters, but I imagine the locals who live there are entirely uninterested in selling it offworld. Otherwise, it's not a source of hydrogen. Venus is not a source of hydrogen. Earth is an absolutely fantastic source of hydrogen and water, and would be perfectly positioned to supply Luna. It's just too bad about all the TITANs. Luna has ice in its own right, mind you, so it's not like they're without sources, but they want more, for reasons I hope are obvious. Mars could supply water, but they need all they can get for their terraforming; as they're currently actively importing the stuff, they're not selling a drop. Main-belt water iceballs like Ceres have loads of water and ice to export, but they're too busy supplying their local needs to think much about exporting in mass quantities. Jupiter could export hydrogen, but that would mean dealing with the Jovians, who are, well, to put it mildly, gigantic jerks. Sure, you'll deal with them if you can, but you don't really want to. Titan and the other places in the Titanian system are busy servicing their own local needs, too. They can export some, but Titanian military planners are probably factoring in water/hydrogen's strategic applications when they consider who to sell to/trade with, so they may be intentionally throttling back the exports heading sunward. Then you get to the far-out places, the farther the better. Really, think about it; bringing comets and stuff in-system only makes sense. It takes a while, but you don't have an urgent, imediate need. Very few people currently live out there, so there's nobody to complain or object if you take a comet or an asteroid and set it on a course for Luna. Sure, you'll probably lose some of your mass to whalers in the belt, but you'll still be receiving the vast bulk of an ice comet. Then you can just insert it into lunar orbit, maybe attach it to a space elevator and carve it up piecemeal, or even deorbit it intentionally, bringing it down lightly (as these things go) and picking it up off the regolith. Or, as was mentioned, you can divert it to drop it on Earth, if you happen to belong to the subspecies [i]homo moronis sapiens[/i].
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LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
ShadowDragon8685 wrote
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Jupiter could export hydrogen, but that would mean dealing with the Jovians, who are, well, to put it mildly, gigantic jerks. Sure, you'll deal with them if you can, but you don't really want to.
I'd think that economic interests are a very good reason for everyone to put aside their differences momentarily in the name of unchecked capitalism and trying to screw each other over through profit margins.
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Then you get to the far-out places, the farther the better. Really, think about it; bringing comets and stuff in-system only makes sense. It takes a while, but you don't have an urgent, imediate need. Very few people currently live out there, so there's nobody to complain or object if you take a comet or an asteroid and set it on a course for Luna. Sure, you'll probably lose some of your mass to whalers in the belt, but you'll still be receiving the vast bulk of an ice comet. Then you can just insert it into lunar orbit, maybe attach it to a space elevator and carve it up piecemeal, or even deorbit it intentionally, bringing it down lightly (as these things go) and picking it up off the regolith.
I'd bare careful about ignoring the transport costs of bringing asteroids from the Kuiper belt to the Inner System. Moving an asteroid from about Pluto to Luna takes twice as much delta-V as from about Ceres to Luna.
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ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
IF they ever figure out the
IF they ever figure out the pandora gates they could empty oceans into sol system :P
Chernoborg Chernoborg's picture
Ice truckers!
Been reading the section this comes from an it looks to me like getting regular shipments of hydrogen would defeat the "independent Luna" ideology they're working towards. The iceteriod itself doesn't have to come from the Kuiper belt, there are plenty of sources far closer- even the centaurs past Saturn qualify as far closer in this case! They might get a supply of free hydrogen by collecting the solar wind with Bussard scoops but that may be only a trickle compared to demand. Also, that raises the issue of infrastructure. Lunar society is already geared towards handling water where a massive investment in construction would be required for collectors . There is already a brisk business in place for the asteroid movers as well. Mars and Venus both have had regular shipments so having some brought to Luna wouldn't be a big deal.
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