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How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and larger space stations through space?

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Neutrino Neutrino's picture
How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and larger space stations through space?
I have a question that possibly could be found in the core rules, but I am asking anyway and I wonder about the minimum technical requirements for general type of communications of the Mesh between habitats, planets and larger space stations in the Inner Systems, for a starter. 1. LARGER 'MESH NETWORKS' Let say the Mesh network on Venus, how is it connected to the Mesh network on Lunar Earth, or a major habitat orbiting Mars? 2. SMALLER 'MESH NETWORKS' Also, what are the minimum technical requirements for regular ships, space stations and small/medium habitats to have adequate communication capabilities? 3. REMOTE 'MESH NETWORKS' Finally, what will the minimum technical requirements be for more remote areas, i.e outside the Inner System? 'Mesh Networks', might be the wrong terminology, but I refer to the concentration of interconnected 'servers' and transmitters (1, 2) and more remote areas (3).
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
There really is no inter-planetary mesh. The comms lag between Venus and Earth (or Luna) can vary between (roughly) 2 and 14 minutes one way. So the turn around time will be at least 4 minutes. This means there's no actual mesh. There's even a 3 second turn around time for signals between Earth and the Moon, so even at that smaller scale you won't have a mesh network that can facilitate real time AR or convenient voice/vid communication. In a system of moons or close asteroids I think that comms will be mostly Radio/microwave, so that means a high wattage tranciever with a big dish antenna. Interplanetary comms will primarily use a neutrino tranciever, that's an Eight Ton tank of heavy water with a quantum tranceiver attached. I know last time I was here there was one poster (Decivre? or Seraphim? can't remember) who knew quite a bit about signals and protocols and stuff like that. 2. Im not sure if you're asking about what's the minimum number of participants to have a 'self healing mesh' or if your asking about what type of long range equipment ships and small habs will have. If it's the latter you can assume that every ship and habitat will have transmission capability equal to one of our contemporary interplanetary missions, that would be a BDM, (Big Damn Radio), with lots more bandwidth than we have today. The Biggest ships will probably all have Neutrino Trancievers, Warships and such will have Quantum Farcasters. The equipment that small habitats will have would depend on where they're at in relation to other populations. A tincan cluster in orbit around a populated body in the inner system could probably get away with just a high bandwidth radio. You might even assume that each faction or corp on a small hab will have their own comms gear. In the outer system it would be worth the price to have a Neutrino Tranciever even on very small habs with only a few people of one faction. Any place where people want to be able to travel by quantum farcast will need that equipment.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
Didn't I hear that Tim Berners-Lee and/or Vint Cerf had drafted some interplanetary/'space' internet protocols? Either way, I think this is a question that's been well-considered, if not reality-tested. :) Unless that's not at all what you meant.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
The minimum technical requirements are likely fulfilled by the majority of electronic hardware out there. Almost everything is wireless-capable, and since modern protocols are already getting close to "plug n play" functionality, it's not that hard to assume that everything can be mesh-networked out of the box. In fact, I think that ad-hoc wireless network interaction is the standard for all interfaces in the age; why deal with buttons and dials when a quick interface with your mesh inserts can result in instinctive thought-based control of whatever you are linked to? For the most part, every ship is likely going to have a large transmission range... 10,000 km or even larger, mainly because ships need a way to partake in the standard chatter that occurs in long-range travels, and these communications will have long distances. These probably will be handled with neutrino transmitters. Other shipboard communications will likely occur at far lower ranges (perhaps no more than 5 km, or even just inside the ship itself). It still shouldn't be that hard for every computer on a single ship, or within a very tightly-formed fleet, to be interconnected; most computers are likely capable of doing so automatically. Latency is a major issue in longer ranges, and it is unlikely that anything that needs low lag interoperation will work at distances farther than a couple light-seconds. At that point, store-and-forward protocols become far more practical. Larger reputation networks that require longer ranges will utilize a decentralized networking scheme where records are stored at multiple locations, and send updates to all other servers in regular intervals (once a day, once a week... something like that). This does create the potential for lag-scamming (where someone exploits the latency in a widely distributed network for personal gain; such as using forks to make large purchases on one's reputation at vast distances apart so the update doesn't arrive fast enough to stop you from overcharging your reputation), but this might be an issue that law enforcement agencies deal with.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
On that specific issue, wouldn't your rep just take a massive hit after the lag caught up? Use the Burning rules for all the favors summed, with over-stress penalties. Would that even be a 'legal' matter? The ad-hoc description matches my understanding: basically all devices can automatically and constantly form the mesh (that's why it's called 'mesh') with each other. Signal ranges (for 'local' communications) are given on p299, and are pretty generous within that scope. Spacecraft, we know can use RF (limited to lightspeed), neutrino (range = 'at least 100 AU'), or QE (unlimited, instant). AFAIK, neutrinos also move at roughly the speed of light, right?
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
Yerameyahu wrote:
On that specific issue, wouldn't your rep just take a massive hit after the lag caught up? Use the Burning rules for all the favors summed, with over-stress penalties. Would that even be a 'legal' matter? The ad-hoc description matches my understanding: basically all devices can automatically and constantly form the mesh (that's why it's called 'mesh') with each other. Signal ranges (for 'local' communications) are given on p299, and are pretty generous within that scope. Spacecraft, we know can use RF (limited to lightspeed), neutrino (range = 'at least 100 AU'), or QE (unlimited, instant). AFAIK, neutrinos also move at roughly the speed of light, right?
Probably, but someone who is exploiting the lag probably doesn't care about the after-effects. It's like Eclipse Phase's version of bouncing a check... you run yourself into poverty, but not without pulling in a profit. The largest majority of transmission forms are light speed forms of communication. Only QE beats out lightspeed. Neutrinos travel at close to light speed, but not quite. As a rule of thumb, assume a lag of about 1 second for every 300 thousand kilometers of distance that separate you from your message's destination.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Thantrax Thantrax's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
I've got to agree with Yerameyahu, I doubt this would be a legal matter. It sounds to me like what would happen is your network would hit you extra hard for the abuse. You're willing to abuse your network, they'll eager to abuse you for it.
Neutrino Neutrino's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
Thanks for all good comments, but maybe I should rephrase my question. I wonder if the CONTENT of the Mesh is exactly the same on, for example Mars and Venus, similar to our present www but shared interplanetary? If so, there may be some delays for updating, or not? I asked for the technical requirements to understand how this 'merging' of information is accomplished, since I - maybe wrongly - assumed that the CONTENT were exactly the same...? Thankful for a clarification.
Neutrino Neutrino's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
Thanks for all good comments, but maybe I should rephrase my question. I wonder if the CONTENT of the Mesh is exactly the same on, for example Mars and Venus, similar to our present www but shared interplanetary? If so, there may be some delays for updating, or not? I asked for the technical requirements to understand how this 'merging' of information is accomplished, since I - maybe wrongly - assumed that the CONTENT were exactly the same...? Thankful for a clarification.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
Neutrino wrote:
Thanks for all good comments, but maybe I should rephrase my question. I wonder if the CONTENT of the Mesh is exactly the same on, for example Mars and Venus, similar to our present www but shared interplanetary? If so, there may be some delays for updating, or not? I asked for the technical requirements to understand how this 'merging' of information is accomplished, since I - maybe wrongly - assumed that the CONTENT were exactly the same...? Thankful for a clarification.
Some of it. As I mentioned before, big names will probably keep multiple servers for their sites at multiple locations which share data in intervals. Reputation networks and the largest hypercorps will probably have an accessible mesh site no matter where you are located in the system. However, many smaller sites are likely only accessible within a few light seconds of their home server. The content of the mesh is similar but not identical to the internet in that you are dealing with a far more spread out society. Every single human being alive today is within 13000 kilometers of every other human being out there... which at light speed is a latency maximum of about 1/20th of a second using radio and neutrino transmissions, 1/10th of a second through fiber optic cable. Once we populate the entire system, you're looking at latencies of potentially several weeks to a couple years, depending on the locations (two years is the requirement from one end of the Oort to the other). Just imagine loading up your favorite website over the course of a couple weeks or years... really think about it. At some point, the practicality of the internet becomes an impossibility; shortcuts and cheats (such as multiple server locations and downloadable copies of sites) become a necessity.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Neutrino Neutrino's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
Thanks, especially for this comment: 'At some point, the practicality of the internet becomes an impossibility; shortcuts and cheats (such as multiple server locations and downloadable copies of sites) become a necessity.' Analyzing your reply, I also draw the following conclusions (correct me if I am wrong): 1. There will always be a delay in Mesh communications, from 1/10th of a second, to hours, days and even weeks...? (WISH LIST: A rough estimate in time delays, between planetary bodies, depending on distances and available technology) 2. Time delays may even affect Simulspace, AR, VR and XP...? (WISH LIST: How does this time delay affect game play, doesn't this actually rule out some/many type of interactions if the distances are too long...?) 3. Specialized (expensive) hypercorps and interplanetary organizations will be more technically capable of 'minimizing' time delays, than for example the public services available? (WISH LIST: A list of 'top-of-the-line' providers, and prices in Credits and/or Rep...) 4. Given the above assumptions, the Mesh on any given 'planet/station/habitat' have slighty different setup and content, also considering local laws and regulations. (WISH LIST: Suggestions/templates on a basic setup for specific 'planets/stations/habitats'. I mean, rough differencies of level of services provided and its quality. Could I assume that a space station have a much less variety of 'services' than for example the 'Pleasure Domes' on Venus, or can the provide exactly the same services?) Many questions now, but it seems like 'live' Mesh interaction can only be made 'fully efficient' on the same planetary body or close planetary body(ies)/transmission station(s)...? Thankful for clarifications or corrections / Neutrino
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
Neutrino wrote:
1. There will always be a delay in Mesh communications, from 1/10th of a second, to hours, days and even weeks...? (WISH LIST: A rough estimate in time delays, between planetary bodies, depending on distances and available technology)
Little secret: all communication has a delay, even today. The mesh may, in all local cases, have far less lag than present on the internet now. It's only when dealing with far distances that lag becomes an issue. As a quick guideline: when dealing with lightspeed communication, you can expect a latency of 1 second for every 300000 kilometers. As an example, the distance from Earth to the sun is 148,500,000 kilometers... 148500000 ÷ 300000 = 495 seconds of delay, or 8 minutes and 15 seconds.
Neutrino wrote:
2. Time delays may even affect Simulspace, AR, VR and XP...? (WISH LIST: How does this time delay affect game play, doesn't this actually rule out some/many type of interactions if the distances are too long...?)
Yes, but there are ways to mitigate this. Computer systems likely implement predictive calculations to mitigate the issues with lag. The result is the [i]illusion[/i] of lagless interaction through various tricks designed to keep you from noticing. Computer servers might make your simulmorph mimic what it assumes to be your next action before you actually register the action (this will have bizarre effects should you do something that it fails to predict). Some systems might use slower speed accelerations to make the time difference less noticeable. The standard simulspace, however, will simply prevent you from connecting to servers over extensive distances (30 thousand kilometers is a decent distance, as it allows you to connect to every server on your planet of choice but does not allow for connection lag greater than a tenth of a second).
Neutrino wrote:
3. Specialized (expensive) hypercorps and interplanetary organizations will be more technically capable of 'minimizing' time delays, than for example the public services available? (WISH LIST: A list of 'top-of-the-line' providers, and prices in Credits and/or Rep...)
Definitely. The seamlessness of any given company's mesh site will probably be a rule of thumb indicator to just how influential that company is in your region. The more lag, the farther away their point of contact is in your area.
Neutrino wrote:
4. Given the above assumptions, the Mesh on any given 'planet/station/habitat' have slighty different setup and content, also considering local laws and regulations. (WISH LIST: Suggestions/templates on a basic setup for specific 'planets/stations/habitats'. I mean, rough differencies of level of services provided and its quality. Could I assume that a space station have a much less variety of 'services' than for example the 'Pleasure Domes' on Venus, or can the provide exactly the same services?)
Probably differing services. When you enter any given habitat, you are more likely to be seeing links for the local businesses than anything else. Most mesh sites are probably visibly activated if not searched for, loading up when you look at a store and command your mesh inserts to tell you more about it. This means that rather than some global morph broker mesh site, you'll be looking at the mesh site for whatever morph broker is on your habitat right now, along with maybe some stored information regarding morph brokers you have passed on your journey. However, major hypercorporations that deal system-wide will probably still be willing to do business even if you aren't in their locale... you simply send them a message and they will respond with the details after they receive it (however long that may take).
Neutrino wrote:
Many questions now, but it seems like 'live' Mesh interaction can only be made 'fully efficient' on the same planetary body or close planetary body(ies)/transmission station(s)...? Thankful for clarifications or corrections / Neutrino
It depends on your definition of fully efficient. Virtual acceleration makes the illusion of synchronicity easy to pull of. If you run a simulation at 1/60th normal speed, then a latency of 1 minute only actually feels like a latency of 1 second, making distances of up to 1.8 million miles feasible while still maintaining a lag of 1/10th of a second. Behavior prediction systems and other workarounds can also help mitigate the issue. The result may not be truly "live", but the difference might not be noticeable in any way.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
MirrorField MirrorField's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
Well, here are couple personal opinions on how I would play these things... *Everyone has ephemeris application in their mesh inserts. It's not a big or demanding application. This means that everyone (and their muse) will be cognizant of the distances and timing involved. Unless you start playing with QE comms, of course. ("I sent the message. Turnaround time is 9.4 hours which means we can probably call it a night and look at their response tomorrow.") *People will probably write (or record or whatever) e-mail messages when the distance and lag get too annoying. Few seconds of lag for Skype-style calls is within acceptable margin, probably (depending on individual taste). After that, it starts moving towards "instant messages" and so on. *VR games get probably annoying when the lag exceeds tenth of a second or so. Players will probably just stay on local server shard. I'd think one of the more important functions of those famous Experia nodes is to host local game server shards. *Long-distance communication gateways are an important piece of information infrastructure. On more liberal habitats they operate on "network neutrality" rules. On more oppressive polities they're heavily-censored chokepoints.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
Neutrino wrote:
1. There will always be a delay in Mesh communications, from 1/10th of a second, to hours, days and even weeks...? (WISH LIST: A rough estimate in time delays, between planetary bodies, depending on distances and available technology)
Ask, and ye shall be spammed: http://www.aleph.se/EclipsePhase/Distances%20in%20the%20solar%20system.pdf This includes average, max and min distances as well as the lightspeed delays. Last two pages covers the Jupiter system and Saturn. I will probably need to adjust the orbit of Phelan's Recourse in this model a bit. Neutrinos, lasers and radio are all lightspeed. QE is "instantaneous" (do a search for FTL for past debates about this). Ships have speeds as per the core book (see also http://www.eclipsephase.com/diy-space-travel ). Along optical fibers, you typically get 4.9 microseconds of latency for every kilometre.
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2. Time delays may even affect Simulspace, AR, VR and XP...? (WISH LIST: How does this time delay affect game play, doesn't this actually rule out some/many type of interactions if the distances are too long...?)
It is worth noting that latency (delays due to long distances) can be less problematic than lags due to network congestion, lost packets etc - latency changes very slowly, while lags can peak and jitter. Note that clever software can buffer and fill in details, just like it does today with webpages and computer games. But it cannot handle interaction where the typical timescales are faster than the lag. One way of solving it for personal interaction is of course to send forks. Noninteractive media just stream information, and the latency only affects when they start. Text chatting can likely handle several seconds delay, turning more into IM and email as it gets slower. Web surfing becomes intolerable after latency becomes more than a few seconds. Talking to people tends to become tricky once you get delays of a few tenths of a second. The recommended max delay for phone services is 0.15 s. Interactive video is more sensitive; I expect a limit of about 0.1 seconds for truly interactive social responses. To puppet someone or something remotely you need delays significantly smaller than typical human reaction times, 0.1 s. I think convincing AR need to update at around 50 Hz, so if an object is handled by a remote server it must have delays shorter than 0.02 s. Convincing interactive tactile VR needs to update even faster (because you cause vibrations in the VR objects that are important for the experience): if it cannot be done locally, I suspect that even delays on the order of 0.01 s will make things feel different. Neural delays across the brain are a few milliseconds: if a distributed neural computation is going on, it cannot have a round-trip longer than 10^-3 seconds (and it gets worse if the brain is running faster, of course). Turning this into distances, I get the following estimates: Brain-to-brain communication: max distance 300 km. Convincing remote VR: 3,000 km Remote AR: 6,000 km Puppeteering and telepresence: 30,000 km Interactive video: 30,000 km Voice: 45,000 km Text chat: 3,000,000 km (or more, depending on patience) Note that you could slow yourself down to make communications easier.
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3. Specialized (expensive) hypercorps and interplanetary organizations will be more technically capable of 'minimizing' time delays, than for example the public services available? (WISH LIST: A list of 'top-of-the-line' providers, and prices in Credits and/or Rep...)
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics!" Lightspeed limits are hard limits, and the only way around them is to use ultra-expensive QE. What you can compete with is bandwidth (how many bits per second you can send), quality (can you assure less than X% lost packets?) and security (how good encryption infrastructure do you have). I think public services tend to be pretty clogged, especially in the outer system, for the same reason P2P tends to fill flat rate ISPs today: there is no extra cost to the user, so they will use a lot and fill all capacity. If you have a price system (Extropia, likely much of the inner system) then you are discouraged from wasting it by having to pay a market rate. Outer system spammers of course get lowered rep, but that doesn't hurt weblife and untraceable AIs. Nimbus seems to be the big player. They are the only ones mentioned, but here are some inventions of the head: QLight - Early quantum encryption and QE specialist. Provides very expensive QE links to customers, for example linking the Martian and Extropian stock markets. Maintains a fleet of courier ships for transporting qubits and massive amounts of one-time pad information. VCG Distribution - Media distribution, especially high bandwidth entertainment such as XP. Maintains servers on most major habitats. Iris - The major Jovian communications provider. Run by the Republic, it makes sure censorship is built into the comms infrastructure at the lowest level. Tietong-Integral Telecom - Descended from the Chinese telecoms industry. Lots of capacity in the Mars and Earth system. Farband Communications - Pre-fall giant, pioneered neutrino communications and very long-distance communications in the solar system. Retains a number of transponders and systems in the outer system. Run as an employee cooperative. Sautedé Networks - Ship-to-ship communications, navigation aid and logistics. A subsidary of Cometary Express.
Extropian
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
Decivre wrote:
Latency is a major issue in longer ranges, and it is unlikely that anything that needs low lag interoperation will work at distances farther than a couple light-seconds. At that point, store-and-forward protocols become far more practical.
It would be reasonable for large file dumps to be used so that applications and data transfers on a given ship or habitat could be spooled and then transmitted en masse. Possibly to the exclusion of interactive network traffic, to ensure that time-sensitive data goes out when it needs to.
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This does create the potential for lag-scamming (where someone exploits the latency in a widely distributed network for personal gain; such as using forks to make large purchases on one's reputation at vast distances apart so the update doesn't arrive fast enough to stop you from overcharging your reputation), but this might be an issue that law enforcement agencies deal with.
It would also be likely that a few crackers have found exploits for the distributed datastores that could be used to overwrite (or at least strategically collide with) updates for the purposes of forcing a more controllable retransmission that could be spoofed. It may even be possible for certain high bandwidth mesh nodes to come under fire to reshape routing patterns in certain ways.
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: How the Mesh is shared between habitats, planets and ...
Yerameyahu wrote:
On that specific issue, wouldn't your rep just take a massive hit after the lag caught up? Use the Burning rules for all the favors summed, with over-stress penalties. Would that even be a 'legal' matter?
One might think that this would constitute a signal transmission problem and not a social problem, and would be compensated for by the communication software. One would think that a lot of people may have been burned badly by this in the years prior to the Fall (which would make an interesting backstory for a character, incidentally).
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The ad-hoc description matches my understanding: basically all devices can automatically and constantly form the mesh (that's why it's called 'mesh') with each other.
'Mesh' usually refers to the routing protocol run over top of an ad-hoc network, but for the purposes of a game your description is sufficient.