nielsk wrote:

Forking sounds cool but actually I do not get what a character actually needs to create a fork. I read the "Forks vs Backups"-thread and several the parts in the book about it. Now to my concrete questions: 1 ) On what devices can a delta or beta fork run. If I understood it correctly I need at least a mesh insert, ecto or vehicle if I want to run an alpha fork (because those are the devices that can run an Infomorph) 2 ) Suppose I have a mesh-insert on which a muse runs, can a delta-, beta-, alpha-fork run on it, too? If yes, how many? 3 ) If I have a biomorph, is it correct that I always need an egobridge to create a fork (ecxept with this house rule Rob Boyle mentioned which would allow to create a delta fork from the cortical stack)? 4 ) I always create an alpha fork and then prune it to get a stripped down version? 5 ) What is with this creating of an empty delta fork-template and pruning it? Would I still need an egobridge? (p. 274 core rulebook) 6 ) When I keep delta forks on hand, how many could I keep on hand in which device? 7 ) If I want to merge forks back into a biomorph do I need an egobridge? 8 ) How common are egobridges (they are "expensive" but I do not yet have a feeling for money in this game; bioware and stuff seems to be ridiculously cheap)? 9 ) How big are egobridges? 10 ) How common is psychosurgery with the "normal" civilian. It seems that it's more or less necessary for creating forks because if you don't have it your forks suck and merging will nearly always create stress. At the same time it sounds that forking is quite a normal thing that is done all the time but checking w/ my players who are using sample characters from the rule book it isn't really compelling because of the needed psychosurgery-skill which no one of them have. I think that's it. Thanks in advance for your answers :)

[list=1][*]You may run a fork on mesh inserts, ectos, cyberbrains, biomorphs, and anything with computation capability equivalent to mesh inserts/ectos. You may only run a fork on a vehicle or robot if a cyberbrain has been installed. You may run AIs on much, much more things (almost everything can have a basic AI installed). AIs cannot be ran on biological brains (they may be ran on pods, but only because they can be uploaded to the cybernetic portions of the brain exclusively). Beta and delta forks, despite being limited in capacity, still require the same prerequisites as running an alpha fork. [*]You may only run one intelligence on any device at a time. If you have a muse on your inserts, you cannot have a fork. You cannot have more than one fork or AI on any device either. [*]Yes, you always require an ego bridge with a biomorph. Even pods, despite mostly having cyberbrains, require an ego bridge (it doesn't take as long to upload their minds, however). [*]Yes, the process for creating beta and delta forks usually starts with producing an alpha fork. In theory you can immediately transfer the backup to the limited template, thus never producing an alpha fork to begin with (or basically pruning it as it is being created), but most people don't do that. [*]You need an ego bridge only for the purposes of converting a biological brain into digital data. No ego bridge is needed for synthmorphs and infomorphs to make forks. However, you always need an ego bridge for biomorphs. [*]Storage space on computers in EP is massive, so you can always assume that you always have the necessary space. You may keep as many inert forks as you want on any device, including your mesh inserts. [*]Again, you [b]always[/b] need an ego bridge to transfer out of a biomorph, whether to make a backup or to jump to another biomorph body. However, you may merge if two biomorphs have mnemonic augmentations, essentially allowing them to fully update one another with the others experiences without the need for a bridge. The two egos remain separate but are updated with the others memories, becoming identical once again. It requires the same amount of time as using an ego bridge, however. [*]Ego bridges aren't too common, but they are definitely not rare. It's generally something that someone goes to a facility to use, like a healing vat. You can own one yourself, but the average person does not. However, you can generally find an ego bridge fairly easily in any habitat, as it is the standard means of travel throughout the system. [*]Ego bridges are relatively small, about the size of a bread-box and basically fitting around a person's head. However, they are usually attached to beds, in which the person lies while the process occurs. [*]Forks are usually designed by professionals for common people. You can rent psychosurgery services for such functions should you need it. Once a fork is made, you generally keep it for whatever purposes you might need. Most people only make a fork once. However, in places where forking is more commonplace (or expected), the practice of psychosurgery is more well known. In these situations, people will know a menial amount of psychosurgery and create forks as they need them, merging when they are no longer needed. It really depends on the territory... you won't find many skilled psychosurgeons in the Junta, but many of the outer system's denizens will be hobbyists in the field.[/list] I hope that helps.

nick012000 wrote:

Decivre: Nowhere does it say that the forks the Multi-Tasking Implants create are limited to your head.

Dude, the multi-tasking implant is [b]in your head[/b]. It produces alpha forks... in your head. How are you going to get them out using the implant? You'd still need an ego bridge, or you need to be a synthmorph to do so. If you have either, then you don't need the multi-tasking implant at all... an ego bridge or synthmorph access jack is all you need to create alpha forks, no multi-tasking implant required.

nielsk wrote:

Good thinking :) I always forget the "take your time"-rule. That's a rule usually only players benefit from and therefore they actually reminding me of that rule every time when they are using it ;) But why an hour? Neural Pruning doesn't seem to be a task test and therefore 6 minutes should be enough for your max +60 you can get (or 3 minutes if you already get for example the +30 for having a fork that is less than an hour old) or 9 minutes if you have to merge a "real old" fork. The process of merging a fork back into a biomorph just takes 10 minutes (to write it to the brain) - not the task of doing it successfully (otherwise it would take 10 minutes for a synthmorph as well). Final solution for this: Synthmorphs have it quite easy. Most people take their time and in "my EP-universe" access to an egobridge will be [I]usually[/I] of trivial cost. Some kind of rent-a-bridge-service or so.

Neural pruning has the task duration listed in the details for beta and delta forks: 1 minute for beta forks, 1 action turn (3 seconds) for a delta fork. Don't worry, it's not a long process. Also remember that failing at the psychosurgery test still results in a usable fork (though with a few possible drawbacks), so it's still doable by most people. There is also a third option for fine-tuning the fork to your whims (you also net a +30 bonus to the test), but that takes much longer (1 month or week for beta and delta forks, respectively).

nielsk wrote:

Actually it's only a question of interface. Nowhere is written which interfaces there are. Does it have some kind of wireless access? Can I implant an access jack that is connected to the Multi Tasking-implant? If yes then you could copy the fork. It is cyberware and therefore no complex readings from any bio-components (like a brain) necessary thus it is just a program. If there are interfaces to it, it has other interesting consequences as well: one could hack into the multi tasking-implant, change the alpha morph and when it merges into the "base personality" you will have some effects. That would mean though that it is possibly as good protected as a cyberbrain.

I don't think that would be a recommended option. Remember that this computer has direct access to your cortical stack. That would mean that access jacks tied to this computer would grant anyone with a cord indirect access to your key to immortality. Not generally a keen idea. Even with a cyberbrain, access to the cortical stack is restricted to the residing ego (even someone who hacks in and puppet socks your cyberbrain is not capable of accessing your cortical stack... though they can force upload a locked ego). You [i]could[/i] theoretically get access jacks attached, but that's about as wise as putting the cortical stack on the outside of your body. Interesting ideas for alternative designs, but its pretty obvious what the function of the multi-tasking implant is, and it isn't for creating forks for transmission. It is, after all, called the "multi-tasking" implant. External access doesn't really play to its function.

nielsk wrote:

@Decivre: Where do you get your information from? Are you part of the dev-team? Otherwise I would be delighted if you could tell me where all the stuff you are writing is written in the rule book (I like it when people are quoting their sources…).

The largest majority is in the section detailing forks on page 273. It details how they are made, task actions, what stats they have, among other things.

nielsk wrote:

Well a Cyberbrain has more or less "direct access" to the cortical stack as well. The cortical stack is only a backup device and when someone hacks the cyberbrain the changes are written to the cortical stack. A multi tasking-implant just reads from your backups and merges with the cyberbrain after a max of four hours. Therefore I do not see the difference between accessing the multi tasking-implant or the cyberbrain. Changes to anything will end up in the cortical stack (which just makes incremental backups of your ego). When you access directly the cortical stack you read a current state, as you would from the cyberbrain or the multi tasking-implant (which might be a bit different from the cyberbrain). The cortical stack is just better protected because it's your backup. Same data as in the brain/cyberbrain but no computational power to execute the program. As I said: if there would be some way to access the multi tasking-implant it would just mean that it probably would be as good protected as a cyberbrain. Btw. with puppet socks you can control a biomorph (p. 307 core rulebook) and there's nothing written that it can be used to upload a mind, only that control is possible. And only because a multi tasking-implant isn't made in the first place for getting an alpha fork out of the body, doesn't mean that it can't be done when you add some ingredients like an access jack. If there is data, there is usually always a way to get to the data, it is only a question how hard it is (and in EP it seems to me rather easy to access anything that is digital as long as it is not encrypted and you do not have access to the key).

That seems fair. Of course, if you have a cyberbrain you still have zero need for a multi-tasking computer when creating forks. You can simply transfer your ego from the cyberbrain to any storage device/device capable of running an infomorph/other cyberbrain, which is instantaneous and requires no ego bridge. The only real scenario in which someone might get multi-tasking implants for the purpose of creating forks is if they are a biomorph with a biological brain... in which case it provides an access point to the cortical stack if it can be externally accessed. That somewhat takes away the biomorph's security advantages (unhackability is a huge perk for biomorphs, and direct access to the cortical stack allows someone to steal a backup of your ego).

nielsk wrote:

Where do you get the information that beta-forks are for the hypercorps and the wealthy. It doesn't actually seem to be that much different to create a beta- or delta-fork. The latter one is easier but Psychosurgery can be defaulted. And when I have a synthmorph/case (which is more common with the poorer people if I read everything correctly - biomorphs are the luxurious stuff except of maybe flats and splicers) it is even easier than with a biomorph (which requires access to an egobridge). And the only place where I would really expect flats is the Jovian republic and there is forking illegal anyways. And I guess that delta forks are more preferred because much of the personality is stripped away and they are more a thing than a beta fork which would be far closer to an AGI and therefore "far more sapient".

Largely inferrence. Beta forks are most commonly used for long distance communication as envoys for the original ego. Envoys are not something that the middle or lower class generally need (as most of them can't afford long distance communication, and likely don't have a need for it anyways). Delta forks are likely preferred because most people who prune forks do so because they are afraid of the implications that multiple copies of you might have on their identity. The idea that they are not unique may disturb many people. Pruning ensures uniqueness while granting a person the advantages of forking. Delta forks are preferred because they are less human than beta forks are. Beta forks still have a certain level of awareness and memories of the original ego (about a year back in memories). Delta forks are completely memoryless, and largely don't even have much of a personality. They are essentially tabula rasa... minds with nothing but skills (and stripped down ones at that). Easier to treat as a possession that way. Do note, however, that AGI are just as sapient as any human being is. Hell, they are playable characters in this game.

nielsk wrote:

Probably they get the multi-tasking implant for its original purpose but some see that they get another utility out of it as well. Btw. when one connects to an egobridge (for creating a fork or making an egocast) a backup could be stolen as well (btw. I guess that would be a nice plot hook ;)). It's all just data and if you transfer data through something it can be captured (hell, that's why you need nowadays encryption from disc to display incl. mainboard, graphic card etc for watch HD-material on your computer from original discs) and nowhere it is actually written that the data is encrypted. And if it is then the cortical stack is encrypted as well and all the ego-data is encrypted and all [b]your[/b] devices have the key installed. And it wouldn't be the first time that usability would trump security. I hope you use a long password (maybe 30 - 60 characters), change it at least once a month, access sites only via https (ups, I think the login of this site is not encrypted), if possible use only certificates/smart cards (especially for your e-banking) and preferably get your money from a person in the bank and not from an ATM (enough fraud happens there) etc……

Still, I see such a modification as an after-market alteration, not something that the multi-tasking implant would come with. I would rule that someone could pay for access jacks and get them implanted with access to the computer, but otherwise I would say that its a closed system.

nick012000 wrote:

You hardly need Access Jacks. Your bog-standard Mesh Implant should do the trick just fine.

Again, if you get the multi-tasking implant modified for external access. It might be a stock option for cyberbrains, but I'd imagine that biomorphs would likely not want that option (for fear of the risks).

Eh? Write-only is exactly the opposite of a safety mechanism. Anyone can come in and retinker it; you don't need feedback to reprogram something, especially if you can communicate with the things that do the writing (ie, the nanites monitoring the brain, and the brain itself). If you reprogram Fred's brain to make Fred think he's your submissive super-slave, bam, it gets permanently written to the Cortical Stack. Not seeing how that's much of a safety mechanism.

Uhm, no, that's not the only way. Cyberbrain hacking and psi powers can do all kinds of things to affect (albeit indirectly) your Cortical Stack. There's absolutely no way that "write-only" is a safety measure. At all. It's quite literally the opposite of a safety feature. What's more, not being able to read it does absolutely nothing to safeguard it, either. Your brain is far more vulnerable in every conceivable way, and since it's constantly copying your brain... zero security and total infiltration of your Cortical Stack. There's no way to argue otherwise, try as you might. It's really just written that way so as as a [i]metagame[/i] limitation. They apparently don't want you creating forks willy-nilly, despite giving you implants that do it anyway... and that's really all this limitation does.

Decivre wrote:

Again, these are weaknesses of other factors (mainly the brain), and not the cortical stack. All you've shown is that "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link", and that the strength of the cortical stack's security doesn't help cover the weaknesses of the brain. I agree with that wholeheartedly, but the point still stands that the cortical stack, as it is designed, is probably the optimal design for security purposes. The ability to access it by any other means would be far too great a security risk. But again, I never said that "write-only" is a safety measure in itself. "Write-only [b]from the brain[/b]" is the safety measure. It means that it is immune to attacks meant to read or write to it from external means (wirelessly being the biggest risk). I also think it fair to note that hacking a cyberbrain is no easy feat. You either have to completely gain full control of their mesh inserts, then gain complete control of their mind (meaning you have to fight for control of two different systems before you can even think about hacking their brain), or you have to wrestle with them in melee combat, directly connect to their access jacks, and hack them while they continue to pummel the shit out of you. As for psi, you can insert memories into a person's mind (essentially the same as using XP technology), and use Cloud Memory to prevent them from obtaining long term memories... but currently released async abilities do little beyond that to permanently affect a mind. Neither instance risks your ego being stolen at all (unless they puppet you to go someplace where they can do so surgically).

I have to agree with your assessment of how the cortical stack works and why its an effective safety feature, while we might disagree about other aspect of forking and EP's neuroscience in general ;), in this case, right on.

After reading over all the rules it seems you may have found a problem with the safety features of the multitasking implant, because unlike a cyberbrain, the MTI isnt particularly difficult to hack and thus represents , a probably unintended, security flaw in the system. However, barring implants like the MTI the cortical stack is pretty damn safe from interference. This whole thread really just points out why biomorphs>synthmorphs, filthy bots... :D