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Habitat sizes

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Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Habitat sizes
Hello! I'm working on an adventure that will lead my players' party to investigate an agricultural O'Neill Cylinder habitat. But I'm facing a bit of a conundrum. What size could it be? The exemples I've seen in diverse inspirations (Gundam UC, Gundam Seed, videogame like Vainquish and Dead Space 2) show some huge dimensions in Vainquish, for exemple, the Providence station is 50 kilometers long with a diameter of 10 kilometers. You could have the Mont Blanc in on the side, and it wouldn't reach the spine of the station! In Gundam UC, the station where the Annaheim institute is located has highways built in! So here I am, wondering what an independent habitat that grows crops and wheat and raises cattle should measure. Any insight, folks?
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Draconis Draconis's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Ok first of all nobody in their right mind would graze cattle in a habitat. It takes a lot of land. Meat would be vat grown. Plants would be greenhoused/hydroponic. The upshot and answer is: any size you want, but probably not as big as you where thinking. Hab space is still at a premium. Most 20th century style ag would be done on exoplanets or Mars. 21st style I could do in my living room.

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Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
well the thing is, the habitat is occupied (or was before a certain faction launched an attack on it) by evacuated peasants from Turkey, Serbia, Greece and Armenia, among others, who wanted to live like they did before the Fall. No hydroponic, not vatmeat, just the natural stuff. Some of the their conpatriots who share an equally strong national identity, the Eastern European Republic, are quite wealthy, and pooled ressources to purchase and refit O'Neill cylinders where they can live like they had for centuries. The one concerned was called New Cappadocia.
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The Green Slime The Green Slime's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Hmm, if the inhabitants were into low-tech food production but were hampered by the limited space of a habitat, they would surely have designed their entire operation around the principles of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture]permaculture[/url]: no compartmentalisation, and every system feeding into the next to minimise entropy. An O'Neill hab would be particularly attractive to the permaculturalist mindset as inhabitants could literally see the proverbial 'closing of the loop' every time they look up. There would be a minimum of barriers and separation in such an environment, so it would look fairly chaotic to the untrained eye. But life would thrive abundantly and waste would be, for the most part, a distant concept. I would say you're mistaken if you think much of anything associated with present-day farming could ever exist in a space habitat. We can't do it sustainably on Earth. Certainly we will have consigned many of our food production models to the scrapheap of history long before we achieve space colonisation. Answer to your OP: make the hab whatever size you like. Nature will fit in anywhere.
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Permaculture was one of the lead I had in mind but another concern they had is not to make the habitats stand out so my question remains; what is is the general size of an O'Neill cylinder habitat?
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Draconis Draconis's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Quincey Forder wrote:
Permaculture was one of the lead I had in mind but another concern they had is not to make the habitats stand out so my question remains; what is is the general size of an O'Neill cylinder habitat?
Ok precise answer then. You've created something very similar to Islandia habitat. Transhuman Space RPG, High Frontier book, p. 83-87 It's a massive O'Neil cylinder at 7.62 kilometers long and 1.524 kilometers in diameter. 12,000 acres of farm land by the way. Actually it's a pair of coupled cylinders that size and it's implied that is the largest space habitat ever constructed. Yes I know not the same rpg setting blah blah no Fall etc etc. That however is a good starting point and sounds like what you'd like. So that size or less.

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Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Cool! Do you a scan of the pages? I have a text only PDF
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Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Cool! Do you a scan of the pages? I have a text only PDF
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Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Quincey Forder wrote:
What size could it be?
I think it could be whatever size makes sense economically. Agriculture has a few constraints: you need to provide sunlight, water and nutrients to the plants. They do not need much gravity, and can be grown very densely and efficiently as hydroponic farming. Racks of transparent boxes with drip-irrigation goes a long way. Vat-farming is even more efficient. But it still requires sunlight (or at least fusion-powered light sources, if it is far out in the solar system) to feed algae in growth tanks that are then either directly turned to food or turned into nutrients for the meat vats. Growing real plants in soil is much less efficient (not to mention animals!) - but will of course appeal to people who can afford "real" food (think of how much people currently spend on organic food today, and then scale it up to a much wealthier future population) So if the habitat is merely supplying other local habitats with food, it would likely be fairly small and dense - a green-glittering labyrinth of sunny hydroponics and high-efficiency life support systems that take in raw materials (asteroid regolith, ammonia-rich ice, waste from other habitats) and turn them into nutrient raw materials. If it aims at the export industry for "real" food it will tend to be larger, but presumably not enormous: for plants gravity does not have to be high, and animal meat might actually become tougher if reared in normal gravity. I would imagine a classic Bernal sphere or cylinder a few kilometres across would be more than enough. There would maybe be a high-efficiency section with agriscrapers producing raw nutrients, and perhaps some residential areas for local workers and people living the "rural" life. Of course, after the Fall the economy for expensive plants and animals tanked almost everywhere (except maybe around Mars), so the above habitat might have started to decline in interesting ways.
Extropian
nikleonard nikleonard's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Regarding the effects of coriolis force and the size/rotational speed of the habitat (max. 2 rpm), someone has made a javascript calculator for artificial gravity: http://www.artificial-gravity.com/sw/SpinCalc/SpinCalc.htm The page includes references to the studies and formulas used to build the program.
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nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Classic O'Neil cylinders tend to be large because they need enough of a radius that, when spun, they create gravity close to 1g. If you remove that constraint, you can make it much smaller. If you do want gravity, the cylinder will be kilometers across, and likely tens of kilometers long, with alternating transparent and opaque panels to permit daylight and space to walk. I believe both of the first habitats in Schismatrix are O'Neill cylinders. (Completely unrelated, just realized if you take an O'Neill cylinder, make its surface super dense and spun that close to c, you could take your home back in time. Great if you missed The Big Game or something.)
HappyDazeAreHer... HappyDazeAreHereAgain's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
They give the size of a few O'Neills in Sunward. Let me see if I can find them. Gerlach is a typical cylindrical O’Neill habitat. It is 1 kilometer in diameter, 4 kilometers long, and has a total population of almost 120,000. Remembrance dominates the Earth-Luna L5 point and houses over two million people. Though it is the largest O’Neill cylinder in existence, it is still overpopulated, so most of the station is cramped, dirty, smelly, and dangerous. The station itself actually consists of two counter-rotating cylinders laid end-to-end, each 35 kilometers in length and 8 kilometers in diameter, and providing approximate Earth gravity. And now for a fun mindbender: QiNG LoNG Station Type: O’Neill Cylinder (Mars-Sun L5) Allegiance: Planetary Consortium/Triad Primary Languages: Cantonese, Korean, Mandarin, Vietnamese The largest habitat in the Martian trojans, and the largest O’Neill cylinder in the solar system, the “Azure Dragon’s” two million inhabitants display a heavy Chinese cultural influence, So, if both of these are correct, the "solar system" is not contained within "existence" ...
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Quincey Forder wrote:
Cool! Do you a scan of the pages? I have a text only PDF
You could purchase a PDF [url=http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG30-6704]from the publisher[/url] for $9.99us.
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
purchased! thanks! gonna put it on my ipad your suggestions are well noted. Another question At the time the PCs arrive, there is a big hole in the hull, large enough to let a Black Hawk sized gunship in. how could they realistically hope to fix that?
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Draconis Draconis's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Glad to help. That's a good book. Lots of ideas in there. Well with nanotech I suspect the hull around the breech will grow after sensing the damage until the hole is sealed. The nanites would strip a layer off the surrounding hull to use as building materials. So they answer is they wouldn't have to do anything. Emergency mechanisms shouldn't require anyone's input, they just deploy. Or you could have drones sitting on the hull drop a modular patch plate over the hole and weld it in place. Harder though since presumably atmosphere is escaping out. Of course I'm a biologist not an engineer.

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nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Nanotechnology is not ideal here because the amount of time it would take. A hole that size would result in some serious atmosphere loss in the local area (although with a nice sized habitat it won't be a serious issue for a bit). Most likely they'd have drones that could seal the area with a large piece of cheap hull material and it could be foamed in place with freeze-foam. That would provide the temporary fix (like fix-a-flat) until the nanomachines can do it properly.
Draconis Draconis's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Yep, exactly what I was thinking. Got it on the edit. Sometimes I rush things since I'm at work in the middle of an experiment.

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Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Thing is, when the players characters arrive, the place is dark, innert, with no gravity (well, since it's innert, it makes sense, right) and in vacuum heck, it's very likely they enter by the hole in the hull Think entering the Discovery in Kubrick's 2010. Or The Event Horizon with Weir and co enters or that ghost station in Gundam 083 the eerie stuff is that they find no corpse. even kilometers away from the breach and only a few were floating outside anywhere. And this is were the people who kidnapped their client's daughter were hiding so, their first logical step would be to get the station functioning again, wouldn't it? And, unknown to them, there are some sentries waiting for intruders just coming online
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nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Getting a habitat that size 'functioning' is a huge undertaking, comparable to the difficulty of building it in the first place. I'm not sure how the habitat has spun down like it has, but it takes a lot of energy to get it spinning up again. A fusion generator that has shut down normally takes a very large 'jumpstart', plus complex conditions, high-quality fuel, and the functioning of a very complex machine. I don't even know how you'd rebuild a hundred cube kilometers of lost atmosphere. If this habitat is in as poor condition as you're describing, and they're only there to do a search, I would revive the minimal number of subsystems required to do that search and leave the rest to rot.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
Getting a habitat that size 'functioning' is a huge undertaking, comparable to the difficulty of building it in the first place.
Nah, just *very tough*. One of my current adventures (about to be posted here when my players have finished it) involves dealing with a dead cycler habitat. There has been some discussion about whether it could be repaired if the local horror was defeated. Some notes: Rotating habitats conserve their angular momentum, but many habitats might have several sections like two counter-rotating tori or a big cylinder with counterrotating weights (this prevents precession issues when orbiting). If things wind down the friction will slow the rotation. Air: habitats likely have reserve air and volatile stores that could be used to replenish the environment within reason. Energy: a fusion reactor has many failsafes and can shut down in a proper way without losing fuel. It might however lock up so that it can only be restarted after a certified fusion engineer (from the right company?) inspects it. Temperature: space is a perfect insulator. But things left in constant shadow tend to cool off towards 3 K, while sunlight heats up things on the sunside (in Earth orbit to around 150 degrees C or so). Thermal conduction and rotation evens things out a bit.
Extropian
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Could they restart the rotation at a fraction of its normal rate? Another question would be about the location for these stations -and this one in particular- two possibilities make sense with the adventure: -Mars Greek -Jupiter-Sol L3
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nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
Presumably the habitat has a system to spin itself up to make up for natural loss, if you get the power systems back up. Like aremaneontounweousdu9her said, if the habitat is already spinning and isn't playing 'wheel around the axle', there's not much of a reason why it should slow down even after a very long time. Realistically an O'Neill habitat, even an abandoned one, still will be spinning without power. You have to worry more about it falling out of orbit than it losing its spin, really (and fixing that is a matter of towing it, if it hasn't already fallen into the atmosphere and burnt up).
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
which is why I'm more and more inclining to go with the L3 point idea The station was thoroughly ransacked, all its habitants either massacred, asphyxiated or sucked out in the vacuum. Cutting what little spin it would have would be the cherry on the top, and a good way to slow down whoever would come and search the place I could see a huge centrifuge pendulum at on each end of the cylinder this station is the big conclusion of the first act, so it has to be climatic, doesn't it?
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nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
If you want a Big Bang, you could have a smaller habitat made up of two or four modules swinging at the end of long nanofiber cables, like a bola. In the final scene, the bad guy slams into the center, causing the two habitats to smash into each other.
The Green Slime The Green Slime's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
How could the attackers manage to halt the station's spin? It would surely be quite a difficult and time consuming process to arrest that kind of momentum. And equally challenging to get it going again. I'm thinking on the order of weeks or months, even by transhuman tech standards. And the bigger you make the station, the more unlikely it seems (there might even be someone here nerdy enough to illustrate the physics of such a colossal feat, but it ain't me). Maybe you could hand-wave something about the station falling into a strange situation gravity-wise, or have it spinning off-axis (which might actually present more challenges than zero-g). It would have to be some major hand-waving though. Big things in space seem to want to spin.
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
There's some easy methods of slowing down or disrupting a station's spin. Release large chunks of mass on one side, or add mass to the other. Release atmosphere in a direction counter to spin. Use some nuclear explosions as counter-thrust. Get everyone out and push.
mickykitsune mickykitsune's picture
Re: Habitat sizes
I imagine most habitats would have emergency rocket systems mounted around the outside circumference of the hull, to thrust with or against the current direction of spin to speed it up or slow it down. That seems a perfectly reasonable and logical sort of safety system.
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