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Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism through Battlestar Galactica

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Rhyx Rhyx's picture
Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism through Battlestar Galactica
My girlfriend and I gave each other a gift from us to us over the holidays: the gift of Galactica. So we've been watching it episode after episode and I was stunned by how much there were bioconservative elements involved. Battleship First off the Galactica itself, an old ship that as one character said: "Comes from a time where we looked to the past for security." So the Galactica itself is very very analog for such an advanced warship. Still has good old hatches, no on-board networks and built with ridiculous amounts of armor and pressure doors, much more submarine than aircraft carrier. In this way this "retro-chic" aspects reminds me a lot of how a Jovian Battleship could be like in a Post Fall era. The Jovians would be generally distrustful large networks because of the possibility of virus outbreaks. The ships would also be very sturdy and easy to repair. In fact pretty much a brick in space made to stay up and shoot things down. Drones, autonomous cruise missiles and other remotes could easily act as a Battleship's teeth. Tactics Speaking of the Jovian's hardware also makes me think tactics. As in the episode "Resurrection Ship" the first thing a Jovian force would try to identify hit as hard as it could would be re-sleeving and egocasting facilities. That would actually go a LONG way towards evening out the odds. After re-sleeving facilities are down the Transhumans lose their edge, their resurrection, in a way similar to how the Cylons are much more careful after their re-sleeving ship, gets taken down. In a way thinking along the re-sleeving infrastructure the transhumans are actually much more vulnerable because their backups are in a secure location well shielded but you have entire cities and habitat backups that are also intregrated in the re-sleeving facilities. Once that infrastructure is removed transhuman final death is possible. Feelings towards transhumans Another way that the Characters on Galactica are similar to bioconcervatives is that fact that since they believe mostly in souls any emotions or humanity displayed by Transhumans are could be instantly seen as fake. "You may think your human but you are a computer program that thinks it has emotions." This kind of thinking may lead bioconcervatives to be comfortable with having no mercy or compassion for transhumans in a way similar to the humans having no mercy or compassion towards cylons. For this example I'm brought back to the cylon prisoner aboard the Battlestar Pegasus that has been mistreated, raped, abused and generally used as a form of entertainment. Once humans can remove personhood from another it leaves the door wide open for a host of unthinkable acts that can be enacted on the non-person. This thinking pattern can leave options open that would make any normally ethical individual blanch. Epiteth Now the only thing that bioconservatives need is a "Toaster" equivalent. A derogatory name to makes the transhumans not as individuals but as a block of contemtuous nonhuman creatures that oput them on equal ground as exhumans... So any ideas? The idea I had was to that the bioconservatives could call the Transhumans, Tango (or Tangos for plural). In a way similar to the Viet Cong that were named Victor Charlie (Charlie for short) according to the Nato sound alphabet the Tango could be short for T for transhuman but it also has the grim designation in the military as the T being also short for Target. So with Tango you have a military diminutive For T and the designation of Transhumans as well Targets. "Get the fuck out of my face Tango!" Just saying that reminds the bioconcervative that not only is he talking to something dirty and unhuman but that he is also talking to a target, not a person, thus it becomes a self reinforcing meme. Thoughts?
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
+100% My wife was watching Battlestar Galactica and kept mirroring those ideas. I think the idea of calling Transhumans "Tango" or just "Tang" for the ladies is a great one. edit: or "Trannies" says wife.
Rhyx Rhyx's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
I actually thought about Trannies, but that would be a disservice to Transexuals. :D
monjay monjay's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Interesting perspective, certainly - and great fuel for the Jovians aside from the brown-shirted thugs I had originally considered them. Being a big BSG fan myself, I can totally see this. As for derogatory terms, I'd bet they'd use terms like "machine tainted" and the like. They consider themselves more pure.
Thunderwave Thunderwave's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
monjay wrote:
As for derogatory terms, I'd bet they'd use terms like "machine tainted" and the like. They consider themselves more pure.
I keep thinking of "Nippleneck" from the old show Space: Above and Beyond. That show has some very interesting bio-conservative issues built in, such as a race of thinking machines turned TITAN style and vat grown people (who have a nipple like mark on the back of their neck and no navel) that where created to help round out the fighting forces when things started to go bad (they are made in vats, they ain't real people!). Sadly it only lasted for one season.
fafromnice fafromnice's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
really good idea ... I will use them I love Tango ... but not so much trannies :P the problem with the galactica (great show by the way) is that the design is not usable to EP, most of the ship are torus with reactor more like the Odysse in 2001, Space Odysse. Ok we can use the same design without artificial gravity but in this case the Jovian will need to have extensive physical care (their morph are not tailored for extensive life in space if i'm not wrong) the "non-person" view is clearly something i was not thinking off ... but your right (sadly :P) ... so who think of TITAN-ITS in case of rape ?

What do you mean a butterfly cause this ? How a butterfly can cause an enviromental system overload on the other side of a 10 000 egos habitat ?

urdith urdith's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
monjay wrote:
Interesting perspective, certainly - and great fuel for the Jovians aside from the brown-shirted thugs I had originally considered them. Being a big BSG fan myself, I can totally see this. As for derogatory terms, I'd bet they'd use terms like "machine tainted" and the like. They consider themselves more pure.
A good derogatory term should be easy to get out in a moment of frustration. "Toaster" or "Skinjob" (for those who like a good Blade Runner reference) or "liberal" if you live in certain parts of the US can all be growled, or spat out in a moment of disgust. I'd actually suggest not specifying an insult and see what develops from the characters. I'm betting the epithet they come up with will fit better than anything imposed.

"The ruins of the unsustainable are the 21st century’s frontier."
— Bruce Sterling

monjay monjay's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
urdith wrote:
I'd actually suggest not specifying an insult and see what develops from the characters. I'm betting the epithet they come up with will fit better than anything imposed.
I agree, but since my players are more or less new to the setting, sometimes I have to add some flavor for them. Luckily, they're all out in The Kepler fixin' to die, so I don't have to worry about that detail just yet. :)
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Jovian derogatory terms: Toaster => Synthmorph or TITAN machine Skinjob => Transhuman or TITAN Exsurgent Any others?
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
xPeregrine xPeregrine's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
My problem with using Toaster and Skinjob is that they are pulled directly from BSG... I feel like we need something more original and fun without yoinking from popular media. Also, while trannies may be derogatory towards transexuals - nobody ever said derogatory terms should be nice. Generally they *aren't* PC. So I can see someone from the conservative Jovian Republic making use of it. But in player/RL terms, I can see what you mean. I'm going to go through the book and see if I can come up with some derogatory terms. It's a wonderfully productive use of time.
urdith urdith's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
xPeregrine wrote:
My problem with using Toaster and Skinjob is that they are pulled directly from BSG... I feel like we need something more original and fun without yoinking from popular media.
Skinjob was taken from Blade Runner. The BSG guys weren't ashamed of lifting from their media influences. I can almost see insults like this, stemming from popular media, becoming living insults where no one remembers the original source. The swear word as third order simulacra...

"The ruins of the unsustainable are the 21st century’s frontier."
— Bruce Sterling

Camwyn Camwyn's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
I'm thinking quick and sweet... oilcan for the clanking masses bane, tainted, or such for infected/exsurgents (or bug terms, but they've been a but overused) since sylph is already taken, perhaps Dionysus (as a god of madness) for biomoprhs/transhumans (dions?) or Erinyes... I would be reluctant to classify/nickname anything exsurgent with anything transhuman - since the percieved immediate threat level is so different...wouldn't want to mix them up ;) I like the idea of letting the players come up with them naturally
xPeregrine xPeregrine's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Just for fun! I always loved the Shadowrun Slang glossaries -- For JR characters: Hack Job - Someone with non-human or unusual morphological modifications. Clusterfu**ers - In reference to synergistic groups or similar tech Community commode (or condom) - Rental morph or Pleasure Pod Flesh Jacket - Biomorph Barbie - Beautiful but obviously fake female biomorph. Alcohol Wipe - Referring to the sterility of biomorphs Daisy/Rose - Artificially scented biomorph. Forker (Mother Forker) - Transhuman Tango - Target/Transhuman Skin Job - Transhumans Spam - Biomorphs - meat without substance. Ash Tray - A synthmorph Toaster- Synthmorph Chaff - Scum - the dispersed, unwanted. (The refuse floating in between you & a real target.) Floaters - Infugees waiting to be re-sleeved Cabeza hueca - To synthmorphs - no brains/hollow head Zaguate - Dog/Mutt - Promiscuous (for someone who re-sleeves a lot) From the book: Frankenfreak Genefreak
xPeregrine xPeregrine's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
urdith wrote:
Skinjob was taken from Blade Runner. The BSG guys weren't ashamed of lifting from their media influences. I can almost see insults like this, stemming from popular media, becoming living insults where no one remembers the original source. The swear word as third order simulacra...
<- Augh.. I should know that! But I can definitely see that working.
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Flats/splicers are almost never transexuals or neuters, so I could certainly see connecting transhumans with a repressed minority that already gets kicked around. "Trannie" also refers in current culture to transmissions (in cars) so it works for synthmorphs too :P But I can understand backing off from it due to RL concerns.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Here's a few that could be used in the JR but also elsewhere The Walking Dead - People resleeved in cases. Clankers - Any synthmorph Monkeys in suits - Uplift gorillas and neanderthals D.D.K. - Dead but Don't Know (it). Anyone who's been resleeved, especially in synths. Chicken Littles - Anyone over-anxious about the TITAN's return ("They think the sky's falling") C.C.C. - Clack, Crack, Crunch. Standard procedure for perma-killing a synthmorph. Shoot it, crack it open, and crush the stack. Moon-Mad - Asyncs who are unaware as to the origin of their ability, especially in poorer places. Squawkers - Uplift avians Snobs - Ultimates
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
In the depiction of a jovie it was stated they used the term "frankenfreak scum", I believe. I could see frankenstein based slurs. Also, how about calling some of them "barbies", implying that they're just dolls that look human? "The term "barbie f-ck-r" could be used as a slur against humans who have relations with them. Maybe the star trek term "Borg" could be used in fan material maybe not in published stuff lest paramount get bitchy, but then again it might be usable as it's set in the future and used as a reff to star trek. Again, maybe they use the term "Cylon" as a slur? How about "Robby", implying that the clanking masses really are just robots? Zombies, to imply that resleeved are just walking dead? (If you want to toss in some real, historical racism to make the jovies look like assholes, maybe they could call resleeved or such "Spooks" or "Bogeymen". Be careful as these terms can offend real live people today.) Uplifts could be called "Subs" to imply that they are "subhuman". To make an even clearer nazi reff, call them "Unts" (Oonts) for "untermenschen", the german term for subhuman. Or just call them "animals". "Blow ups" could be used as a slur to imply that non humans are just advanced forms of those blow up dolls they sell in adult stores. For a real racist slur, just have jovies call all non pure humans "Boy" if you think your players won't be bothered. "Trash" is an old fashioned all purpose insult used by the hateful and simpleminded, implying that non humans aren't even people, just trash. If you really want to make a particular jovie look reeeeeealy bad, maybe he could use the term "Golem" to refer to non humans, because (*sigh*) he believes that "the jews" created all these beings as servants (You know the legend of the golem, right?) and that "the jews" are responsible for all the troubles and problems and so on as part of their conspiracy. That may be going to far, but I could see having a really bad jovie still being bigoted against other humans for stupid stuff like that. BTW, I hope no one here was offended, and rest assured I wasn't wanting to insult anyone here. The jovies are an offensive bunch and when trying to think of ways to depict them you might, of necessity, have to create some offensive terms or images, but it's to accurately depict the offensive, not to offend.

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

Camillus Camillus's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
I have thought about using the term "Sack". It's a reference to "sack of meat" or "sack of scrap" but also segues nicely into "sack of shit". It's also a reference to the scrotum ("ball sack").
urdith urdith's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Camillus wrote:
I have thought about using the term "Sack". It's a reference to "sack of meat" or "sack of scrap" but also segues nicely into "sack of shit". It's also a reference to the scrotum ("ball sack").

"The ruins of the unsustainable are the 21st century’s frontier."
— Bruce Sterling

xPeregrine xPeregrine's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
It that must not be named wrote:
To make an even clearer nazi reff, call them "Unts" (Oonts) for "untermenschen", the german term for subhuman.
I can see the Ultimates using this one.
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
xPeregrine wrote:
It that must not be named wrote:
To make an even clearer nazi reff, call them "Unts" (Oonts) for "untermenschen", the german term for subhuman.
I can see the Ultimates using this one.
Hmm, maybe. From what we saw of the ultimate in the sample character section, he seemed to be trying to encourage others to improve themselves. Not quite a nazi mentality per se, though others could be different.

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

Starglyte Starglyte's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
It that must not be named wrote:
Not quite a nazi mentality per se, though others could be different.
The primer about the Discord gate in Gatecrashers has a little about about the Overhumanists, one of the factions within the Ultimate movement. The big debate within this school is should they take the solar system or use the gates to create a extrasolar civilization.
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Starglyte wrote:
It that must not be named wrote:
Not quite a nazi mentality per se, though others could be different.
The primer about the Discord gate in Gatecrashers has a little about about the Overhumanists, one of the factions within the Ultimate movement. The big debate within this school is should they take the solar system or use the gates to create a extrasolar civilization.
Damn, can't wait to get gatecrashing then. If you like theconcept of the ultimates and them being divided into faction, be sure to read the "revelation space" series and pay attention to the conjoiners and ultras. BTW, I think they called the book "gatecrashing" instead of "gatecrashers" because there was a cheap little RPG called "gatecrashers" once. It wasn't very big or widely known though.

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

Starglyte Starglyte's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
You are right, its Gatecrashing. I even had my pdf open at the time when I posted. :( I was actually pleased with the hints dropped about different schools of thoughts within the Ultimate movement. Also gives me hope that they will do the Jovians justice if/when the Outer System book comes out.
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Starglyte wrote:
You are right, its Gatecrashing. I even had my pdf open at the time when I posted. :(
No, no, it's OK, don't feel bad. The title should have been gatecrashers, and it's natural to think of it like that as that's what the players are. I was just guessing they couldn't call it that due to the old, cheap little rpg from many years ago.

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

Camillus Camillus's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
It occurred to me that if the Jovians don't make much use of cortical stacks they might call those who do "stacks".
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Rhyx wrote:
I actually thought about Trannies, but that would be a disservice to Transexuals. :D
Some of us do not mind being called that (and would leap at the chance for a new morph!)
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Camillus wrote:
It occurred to me that if the Jovians don't make much use of cortical stacks they might call those who do "stacks".
"walking dead" - from the propensity of those who have cortical stacks to be less concerned about death. eliza, bot, irkker - derogatory terms for AGIs ('irkker' -> 'IRCer' -> 'IRC bot') parasite - derogatory term for one's muse genejob - bionanomodifications. (edited: formatting fail.)
Rhyx Rhyx's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Quote:
Some of us do not mind being called that (and would leap at the chance for a new morph!)
Ditto here but I've been accused of being so open minded that my brain fell out! But I'd personally jump at the chance of sleeving in a pleasure pod and living life from both sides of the gender divide. Hmm funny brainwave, could a post op transsexual be bio-conservative? After all most transsexuals undergo the procedure because the feel a dichotomy between their birth gender and their mind's gender. Could transsexuals be on the cutting edge of transhumanism simply because they, in a way, have "re-sleeved" from one gender "morph" to another?
root root's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
root@Fraking Toasters! [hr] Progs. Get your queries off me you damn dirty prog!
[ @-rep +1 | c-rep +1 | g-rep +1 | r-rep +1 ]
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Rhyx wrote:
Hmm funny brainwave, could a post op transsexual be bio-conservative? After all most transsexuals undergo the procedure because the feel a dichotomy between their birth gender and their mind's gender. Could transsexuals be on the cutting edge of transhumanism simply because they, in a way, have "re-sleeved" from one gender "morph" to another?
A fascinating question. Would you mind if I asked some friends that question and collated their responses here?
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Rhyx wrote:
Quote:
Some of us do not mind being called that (and would leap at the chance for a new morph!)
Ditto here but I've been accused of being so open minded that my brain fell out! But I'd personally jump at the chance of sleeving in a pleasure pod and living life from both sides of the gender divide. Hmm funny brainwave, could a post op transsexual be bio-conservative? After all most transsexuals undergo the procedure because the feel a dichotomy between their birth gender and their mind's gender. Could transsexuals be on the cutting edge of transhumanism simply because they, in a way, have "re-sleeved" from one gender "morph" to another?
I hope this doesn't start a flame war or get redtexting as I am trying to answer the question honestly, and have to use some realworld examples, but in a lot of cases repressive groups tend to have a lot of closet gays or sexual deviants in them. The nazi party was rife with closet homosexuals, who were ironically working for a movement that wanted to and tried to exterminate gays, and the modern conservative christian movement has it's share of closet gays too, like larry "wide stance" craig and that reverend haggard guy. So yeah, I'd say a movement like the junta would have it's share of gays like everyone else. The issue would be are gays persecuted under the junta/bioconservativism? That could be yes or no, as maybe the bioconservatives have much bigger issues to worry about than that, but then again some people never change so they could still be persecuting people for that.

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

Rhyx Rhyx's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Quote:
A fascinating question. Would you mind if I asked some friends that question and collated their responses here?
Not in the least, I'd be curious as to the response.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
I think it'd be very easy to be a bioconservative while still being radical about self-modification. There's plenty of neo-luddites who believe everything is just fine as it is now without opposing the tech we already have. They'd have to be open-minded to some extent, but no more than your average mainstream person today. I can easily imagine a somewhat androgynous transgender Jovian or Loonie, bandanna around his/her head, tattoos all along each arm, piercings to beat the ban, sneering and talking derisively about those who sleeve in a robotic morph. And if we're all discussing resleeving, I'd go for a Synth, pretty much entirely to escape biology. Eating, sleeping, breathing, etc. gets in the way of my constant desire to be comfortable anywhere. The prospect of my only neccessities being a battery change every few years, or even every few decades, and perhaps an occasional maintenance check-up or upgrade, is incredibly alluring to me.
Entropy Entropy's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
This is an inspired view to take of the Jovian Republic. Wonderfully subversive, too, as it makes them easy to identify with if you've watched BSG. With the JR's take on paranoia and mistrust of transhumanism in general, there's a chance they might consider all non-bioconservative individuals as 'compromised' or 'exsurgent taints' out of principle. Their philosophy will no doubt preach that they are more likely to become tainted so it's safest to assume that ALL of them are tainted. 'Transhuman' isn't really a word that would fit into their philosophy. It implies that humanism is a state to be transcended, rather than the one true state. 'Tango' and 'Taint' sound like pretty good words to me, and could even be in official term by the JR military. Hell, maybe 'The Compromised' is considered a PC term for Transhumanity in general. 'Golem', IMO could be an official or propaganda term for an 'AI'. Mythological origins of the Golem aside, the term 'intelligence' used to describe an entity has generally positive connotations. 'Golem', as an autonomous artificial construct, is closer to the associations the Junta would want to promote. 'Daemon' might work here too, I reckon. I think hack job, spam, forker and floater, clankers and squarkers are pretty good derogatry terms for the general troops to use.
lucyfersam lucyfersam's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Entropy wrote:
This is an inspired view to take of the Jovian Republic. Wonderfully subversive, too, as it makes them easy to identify with if you've watched BSG.
I think I must be one of the only people for whom that comparison would actually make it harder to identify with them, as I didn't find very many characters in BSG likable at all. Using BSG as a comparison only re-enforces their position as the bad guys for me ;-} That said, it does seem like a good comparison and a lot of the terms come up with here add some good flavor to the villainous bastards... One part of it that seems missing from these lists those is the religious aspect. The concept of a soul plays heavily into many bioconservative philosophies and I would expect that to be very strong within the Junta, so phrases like godless, soul-less, heathen, the damned, etc. would likely be thrown around as well. Religion is just too useful for the Junta to ignore.
Rhyx Rhyx's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Quote:
I think hack job, spam, forker and floater, clankers and squarkers are pretty good derogatry terms for the general troops to use.
And if during the fall you convinced your parents to digitize their consciousness does that make you a "motherforker"
Quote:
The concept of a soul plays heavily into many bioconservative philosophies and I would expect that to be very strong within the Junta, so phrases like godless, soul-less, heathen, the damned, etc.
I agree but the developers decided to downplay religion so I'm trying to see what other stuff I can come up with. I have to admit that a good strong religious bias is hard to beat!
Quote:
I think I must be one of the only people for whom that comparison would actually make it harder to identify with them, as I didn't find very many characters in BSG likable at all.
As a matter of fact when you take into consideration that the whole series was pitched to networks as a retelling of the exodus, the autocratic religious apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Frakking Toasters!: A view of Jovian Bioconcervatism ...
Starglyte wrote:
You are right, its Gatecrashing. I even had my pdf open at the time when I posted. :( I was actually pleased with the hints dropped about different schools of thoughts within the Ultimate movement. Also gives me hope that they will do the Jovians justice if/when the Outer System book comes out.
Dude, you want ideas for the ultimates, read alastair reynolds "Revelation space" series. The Ultras will give you plenty.

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.