I'm a little confused about how Burst Fire (BF) and Full Automatic (FA) work. I've read the rules a few times and it seems a little unbalanced...this came up during the game over the weekend and my players were a little shocked too. There doesn't seem to be any downside (apart from having to reload all the time) to using Burst Fire or Full Auto all the time. I would think there would be some kind of penalty for using BF or FA...sacrificing accuracy to do more damage.
Does anyone have a good explanation as to why there are no accuracy penalties for BF or FA?
Thanks.
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Firing Modes and Rate of Fire
Thu, 2010-05-27 09:36
#1
Cereth
Firing Modes and Rate of Fire
Thu, 2010-05-27 10:11
#2
Decivre
Re: Firing Modes and Rate of Fire
As unbalanced as it may be, it is probably meant to represent the fact that weapons technology is rapidly reducing the actual amount of recoil that the person firing the weapon feels. This can already be seen in current weapon technology; the infamous Barrett M82 (the 50 caliber sniper rifle) combines an efficient muzzle brake with an excellent short-recoil system and a recoil-absorbing buttpad to create a relatively small amount of recoil for what is a very powerful weapon. Id imagine that by the time we achieve transhuman technologies, our ability to compensate for recoil will be that much greater.
Also, I think it fair to note that there are some tradeoffs in using BF and FA firing modes... the most obvious being ammo efficiency. The light pistol deals 2d10 damage per round... in theory, you could deal 6d10 damage per 3 rounds, but a BF shot only deals 3d10. The same is true with a fully automatic blast, which deals 3d10+10 damage, but would deal 20d10 if utilizing each shot individually. For the most part, it would seem that this means not all rounds hit during burst or full auto fire, and this in itself can explain why you take no penalties. While the increased recoil reduces your ability to hit with any individual shot, your odds of hitting someone are increased simply by the amount of rounds you fire. Thus, you forgo accuracy to exploit the law of averages.
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Thu, 2010-05-27 11:03
#3
CodeBreaker
Re: Firing Modes and Rate of Fire
Part of the balance seems to be that you need to keep track of bullets. FA/BF is balanced by bullet economy.
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Thu, 2010-05-27 21:24
#4
Totalgit
Re: Firing Modes and Rate of Fire
2 x 3d10 (2 x DV 16) & 6 bullets with two hit rolls needed for burst fire on one target vs 3d10 + 10 (DV 26) and 10 bullets with one to hit roll needed for full auto on one target. If your a good shot and are likely to hit with both burst roll then since a light pistol only has 10 bullets its prob best to use BF then 2 SA shots.
Though its also possible to hit four targets with 2 bursts (one pair each burst)with one at -20 so thats 4 people with 6 bullets for 2d10 (with a light pistol), not that bad if you can manage to hit them all.
Full auto comes into its own when facing multiple targets and as suppressive fire as it should.
Which leads me to ask how does full automatic vs multiple opponents work exactly?
Its stated as just one roll, so would each opponent use fray/2 and compare it vs the attackers roll to determine if they have been hit and then they all get hit by the same one damage roll? Or would you roll damage for all three (or hit them with average DV if your not rolling)
Example being firing a light pistol FA vs three targets and you roll 50 with a Mos of 20 (TN = 70) so not enough to modify damage, would each target roll fray/2 vs your roll of 50 and then take 14 (2d10 roll) damage?
Thu, 2010-05-27 21:54
#5
Decivre
Re: Firing Modes and Rate of Fire
I would go with rolling a single damage roll for each attack roll. It fits with the pattern in how the rolls are handled in this scenario (one roll, many targets) and speeds up play.
—
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.
[url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Fri, 2010-07-02 03:21
#6
cenrae
Re: Firing Modes and Rate of Fire
I think that is incorrect. I interpret burst fire as a single concentrated burst (6 rounds) with one attack roll for the DV +1d10 bonus, or two separate 3 round burst (2 attack rolls) vs two targets (or even the same one).
Fri, 2010-07-02 06:55
#7
Totalgit
Re: Firing Modes and Rate of Fire
You might be right in that you cant take the multiple opponent -20 penalty when firing two bursts as it might only apply to shots fired from extra weapons. So the max you can hit with the two bursts is the same two people with each burst.
The way it reads to me is that you can fire the two bursts your allowed in one complex action at one person and you roll each burst as a seperate attack and each roll gets +1d10dv. Doesnt really mention it the way you interpret it though i could accept that might be how its supposed to work, it really could be better worded.
Fri, 2010-07-02 12:12
#8
Congzilla
Re: Firing Modes and Rate of Fire
No penalty for burst fire makes sense as the bullets come out in a split second and will land very very close together. Which is also why trying to spread a single burst to multiple targets makes absolutely no sense. No penalty for full auto is just silly tbh. Issues with accuracy and ammo wastage is exactly why the full auto function of the M16A1 was removed on the A2.
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Fri, 2010-07-02 14:31
#9
cenrae
Re: Firing Modes and Rate of Fire
I have been thinking about this all night long and have reread the burst fire rules multiple times. I have originally based my assumptions off of Shadowrun (two 3 round burst in one complex action) with 2 targets possible max. With SR there is a base bonus DV for every 3 round burst. Not so with EP you only get a bonus DV if you concentrate your burst on a single target. Or you may option to to do normal damage upon to adjacent targets with one burst. I am now believing that you can indeed fire upon 4 targets in a phase (which seems to powerful to me).
Mon, 2010-11-01 19:22
#10
Veini-san
Re: Firing Modes and Rate of Fire
I am not sure if I undarstand correct. Burst fire- Two Bursts in one Complex Action, each as a separate attack. Does it mean that EACH Burst deals separate damage? For example I fire BF from Heavy Pistol. One target. I fired two bursts, two bursts hit. So I deal 2d10 + 1d10 +6 for first burst, and 2d10 + 1d10 +6 for the second one? It gives 6d10 + 12 damage, right?
And now, if I use two pistols and shoot one target? Two Heavy Pistols, Ambidextrous trait. First pistol (BF)- 3d10 + 6 plus 3d10 + 6 (two bursts). Second Pistol- 3d10 + 6 plus 3d10 + 6. Lets say I rolled 4x succes. It gives 12d10 +24 damage! And now I will add Nerachem to this. In one turn it gives then 24d10 + 48 max damage (2 Complex Action with 2 Pistols), if all rolls were a succes, so this is max damage. But even if I will fail half of them, it is still hell of a damage. Am I wrong or something? It seems that using two pistols is freaking. Of course for morph with only two arms.
Just tell me if I am wrong. I don't know if I understood this well. It is all about this sentence from book: "Two bursts may be fired with the same Complex Action. Each burst is handled as a separate attack. Bursts use up 3 shots worth of ammunition."
Tue, 2010-11-02 13:28
#11
Gee4orce
Re: Firing Modes and Rate of Fire
Most modern military firearms are already burst fire or full auto, because of the advantages in a) being more likely to hit than a single shot, and b) the possibility of hitting more than once.
The rulebook does mention somewhere that EP firearms are essentially recoil-free, so why would there be any reduction in accuracy ?
The real drawback is having to reload more frequently, carry more ammo, and in the long term supply frontline troops with more ammo. (Hence the removal of full auto on the M16, as mentioned above).
The Twilight 2000 game made full-auto accuracy a function of the weapon characteristics entirely, and nothing to do with shooter skill. I think that's a little too far in the other direction for my taste, but you could always house rule something similar if you agreed with that philosophy.