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DV and Shock Weapons

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Sun, 2011-04-17 23:29

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

DV and Shock Weapons

Searched first, but I didn't find my answer. So, my basic question is: do shock weapons do 'shock DV', or just add the shock effects to other DV (melee, etc.)? This seemed straightforward at first: the rules say that shock weapons do DV + shocking effects. Other shock items (Cuffbands, Eelware, and others) say something like 'treat as shock gloves/baton', without mentioning the DV either way. This means that the shock baton is a cattle prod, doing all of its damage (1d10+2) as shock, right? What about that SOM/10 bit, and the way they "also deliver an electric shock to struck targets"? ('also' and 'struck' are the interesting bits here.) Does that mean you're hitting them ('physical' damage), at opposed to touching them? I ask because a normal club does exactly 1d10+2+(SOM/10), while a shock baton does the *same* 1d10+2+(SOM/10)… +shock. Ditto for unarmed vs. shock gloves (1d10+SOM/10, and 1d10+SOM/10+shock). I guess that could be a coincidence, but it confused me into thinking that you're actually hitting them for damage, and the shock effect is merely an add-on. Zap rounds apparently *do* deal ballistic damage and a '0 DV' shock, for example. Now, I thought about interpreting, "Many shock weapons also inflict DV, which is handled as normal.", to mean 'also inflict non-shock DV at the same time', but the cuffbands *and* Offensive Armor really nix that. It specifically says "(treat as a shock baton," and "Treat its DV and effect as a shock baton (p. 334)." They'd only specify 'baton' if it mattered (+2 DV), and the latter is even more explicit about the DV. Unlike even the Riot Shield, which could be interpreted as a shield 'bash', these are entirely passive and shock-based. So, why the coincidence of damage between club/shock baton and unarmed/shock glove? Further, does this mean punching someone while using eelware does unarmed (1d10+SOM/10) *plus* eelware ("Eelware inflicts shock damage (p. 204) exactly like a pair of shock gloves.") 1d10+shock (even leaving out the redundant SOM/10) = 2d10+SOM/10+shock. (It's the "exactly like" part that's confusing.) I'd prefer for this not to be the case, but it feels like the various rules conflict. (Worse stacking tricks are obvious, of course). Finally, what about this: p313: (Shock Proof) "Apply an additional +10 modifier when resisting the DV and effects of shock weapons (p. 204)." Where does +10 apply toward resisting shock DV? Is it just +10 Energy armor, like Fireproofing (which has a totally different wording)? That's the simplest answer, but I figured I'd ask while I'm already here. :) In that spirit, one last: shock is just *really* strong, right? Impossible (for a biomorph) to avoid the effects, only to partially resist them? Even Shock Proof armor gives a piddling +10, and you still are stunned a bit regardless, right? Thanks. :D

Mon, 2011-04-18 04:26

degausser

Re: DV and Shock Weapons

Well, I am new to the system, and by no means an expert, but from what I can tell: 1)I think Shock weapons do Electricity-type damage. That way, if you successfully resist the shock, you take half damage from the weapon. For example, you shoot someone with 'zap' rounds, and they make their resist test, then you only deal 1/4 the normal damage from a gun. (since zap rounds deal half damage, and successfully resisting the shock deals half damage again) 2)This leads to the second part, is it really super powerful? Well, it seems like yes and no. On the one hand, you always give them -30 to their skills (as long as you hit), but on the other hand, they are dealing full damage to you, and you may only be dealing 1/4 damage to them. Plus, if someone gets zapped, they could just run and hide behind cover for a round or two and fully recover, whereas every bullet wound you take is gonna stay with you. (as a side note, I'd house-rule that a crit sucess on a shock reistance test would not do anything to you.) But, really, I haven't played the game before, that was just me thumbing through the book. Can anyone else who has actually played through the game tell us if it's super broken or not?

Mon, 2011-04-18 09:24

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: DV and Shock Weapons

So the idea is that is *is* a coincidence that the shock melee weapons do exactly as much 'shock DV' as they would have done 'physical DV'? I guess I can buy that, pretty reluctantly. :) If so, given the technology level, why does the baton do +2 DV (bigger batteries? hehe)… and does eelware do 1d10 DV shock, or 0 DV shock? Do cuffbands do 1d10 'shock damage', and how often can they blast you with this partially-armor-ignoring damage? Does the DV of 'electricity-type' attacks hit your Energy armor, or does the shock DV go through (half, if you succeed the resistance test)? That (half upon resist) did seem like a problem, though. The combat example on p192 has someone hit by a stunner, and they (seemingly) only resist the shock-effect aspect. In fact, they almost seem to take damage before the shock-effect resistance is even rolled. Do you retroactively reduce the DV? Because the target in the combat example fails the resistance, we don't actually see what would happen. :/ I'm mostly *not* asking about Zap rounds, but it's good to mention them again (because you're shocking from basically any range). I believe that Zap rounds do ballistic damage + 0 DV shock, from the description, but it's not positively so. On the subject, you can't run if you don't beat that resistance test, which is nontrivial without major armor, and if you don't succeed, it's several *minutes* to shake it off. No one says you have to keep using Zap the whole time, either.

Mon, 2011-04-18 10:27

LostProxy

Re: DV and Shock Weapons

Well I always thought it meant that you're hit with the weapon, it does physical damage, and then if it's applicable the shock effect is added. I mean getting hit with a baton hurts and the electricity is just the icing on the cake of violence. But we always did it like that for the sake of simplicity. It's never been an issue though. You hit them, they roll, and if they fail they get messed up. It's pretty decent to take someone down with and at least it's no where near the SnS of Shadowrun. For the armor/cuffbands we just said the armor/bands had a much larger battery then the baton and causes the whole damage from the amount of power surging through the persons body. We just didn't want to think about it that much, I won't lie. We played that as the bonus to the DUR + Energy armor test that is made to see if the shock takes effect.

Mon, 2011-04-18 10:41

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: DV and Shock Weapons

Yeah, part of me would love 'shock' to just be the stunning effect (no DV), for the simplicity. That's definitely not the rule (Portal Denial, Offensive Armor, Cuffbands), so you'd have to house rule it. I'd be fine with cuffbands and the armor doing 0 DV, but Stunners and Portal Denial are 'energy weapons', so it's a little stickier there. Another part of me wants to know where the physical damage of the punch/baton went, if it's all shock (again, suspiciously identical to the physical). :) (On a side note, does this mean you're performing a Touch-only attack with these weapons?) The battery argument (I was joking) is just so problematic. The technology in EP is so advanced, energy storage is so dense, that this really requires another explanation; but what else is there? It's not as bad as SnS, no, but a) that's like saying someone's less evil than the devil, b) it half *is*, because of the unavoidable stunning. I also want to know why shockproofing armor is so hard. The +10 bonus is literally the smallest normal bonus for a test, and there's no 'proofing' at all; you're hit either way. Again, with the tech in EP… *shrug*.

Tue, 2011-04-19 18:52

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: DV and Shock Weapons

So, my ridiculously-contrived theory is that the stun baton and the shock gloves have their charge specifically calibrated to be equivalent to a hit or punch, right down to the SOM/10 bonus. :) That's right: personalized strike-replacing tasers. Ditto eelware ("exactly as shock gloves"). They all work as touch-only only attacks, but the normal bonus is seamlessly counteracted by… the difficulty of properly applying a taser touch? *shrug* I feel like Ptolemy writing epicycles. On a slightly different note: *should* shockproofing do more (as much as fireproofing)?

Fri, 2011-04-22 13:27

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: DV and Shock Weapons

Does stacking physical + shock get too D&D? For balancing, the lack of various-size dice is a complication, but you could use 1d10/2, etc. Conceptually, I guess there are a couple perspectives. Tasering someone is a sort of exclusive melee action (IRL; I gather?), because it's touch-and-hold, instead of a pure strike. On the other hand, a deep stab can be very similar (thrust and hold), so I'm seeing cyberclaws+eelware (if that's possible or desirable). As mentioned earlier, this is sort of argued against by Zap rounds (which do physical + shock, without necessarily maintaining contact). Electrical shocks can certainly be delivered with an instantaneous contact, so I'm just considering various possibilities. Is it more desirable for 'shock' to simply refer to the stunning effects? Stronger tasers (whatever the justification) could get a bonus/impose a penalty on the resistance roll, instead of dealing physical damage. I feel like nonlethal ('less than lethal') effects should certainly be possible, and 1d10+2 (+SOM/10, for some reason) can easily wound noncombat people (or anyone who gets crit'd). I'm fine with normal energy damage in combination with this effect, for weapons that warrant it (less 'less than lethal' PDS, maybe the Stunner, etc.).

Wed, 2011-04-27 12:22

thelabmonkey thelabmonkey's picture

Re: DV and Shock Weapons

I wonder if a house rule to choose between touch-attack or extra DUR damage would help clear up some of the issue with batons and eelware punches... If they do a touch attack, it's all energy damage. If they choose to strike, they attack as normal but add the 1d10+2 plus the energy...

Wed, 2011-04-27 14:38

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: DV and Shock Weapons

Do you feel like a touch-only shock attack should not have the (SOM/10) melee bonus, or does that reflect more a more skillful and accurate (and therefore slightly stronger) attack? Still 100% shock, but a tase to the neck instead of the hand? I'm not hugely worried about the shock DV, because the shock effect itself is the real kicker. It's unavoidable (you can only partially mitigate it), and the penalty is at least as good as a Wound. That said, does anyone feel that it's a problem for people to stack it up (whatever Physical + 1d10 shock)?

Fri, 2011-04-29 01:04

#10

RobBoyle

Re: DV and Shock Weapons

Yerameyahu wrote:
my basic question is: do shock weapons do 'shock DV', or just add the shock effects to other DV (melee, etc.)?

They do regular DV and get the shock effects as a bonus.

Yerameyahu wrote:
This means that the shock baton is a cattle prod, doing all of its damage (1d10+2) as shock, right?

It means that if you smack someone with an activated shock baton, you do the same damage as you would hitting them with a club, plus you get that extra shock effect where you might incapacitate them. If you just wanted to shock them, without beating them, you could successfully prod them with a Touch-Only attack I suppose. This wouldn't inflict DV, but would get you the shock effect.

Yerameyahu wrote:
the cuffbands *and* Offensive Armor really nix that. It specifically says "(treat as a shock baton," and "Treat its DV and effect as a shock baton (p. 334)." They'd only specify 'baton' if it mattered (+2 DV), and the latter is even more explicit about the DV. Unlike even the Riot Shield, which could be interpreted as a shield 'bash', these are entirely passive and shock-based.

The Offensive Armor entry is misleading, it shouldn't say DV. They should both just be inflicting the shock effect, no DV. I'll add that to the errata.

Yerameyahu wrote:
Finally, what about this: p313: (Shock Proof) "Apply an additional +10 modifier when resisting the DV and effects of shock weapons (p. 204)." Where does +10 apply toward resisting shock DV? Is it just +10 Energy armor, like Fireproofing (which has a totally different wording)? That's the simplest answer, but I figured I'd ask while I'm already here. :)

It means you get a +10 on your DUR + Energy armor Test to resist the shock effects. Again the DV bit is misleading, I'll fix that.

Yerameyahu wrote:
In that spirit, one last: shock is just *really* strong, right? Impossible (for a biomorph) to avoid the effects, only to partially resist them? Even Shock Proof armor gives a piddling +10, and you still are stunned a bit regardless, right?

Yep, just like in real life.

—

Rob Boyle :: Posthuman Studios

Fri, 2011-04-29 10:08

#11

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: DV and Shock Weapons

Awesome, thanks for the clarification, Rob Boyle! I still think it's a little odd that we have nanotech and brain uploading, but you can't make a suit out of mylar, or Faraday pants, or whatever. :) I'll chalk it up to parallel advances in the taser technology to compensate.

Tue, 2011-05-03 18:21

#12

thelabmonkey thelabmonkey's picture

Re: DV and Shock Weapons

Yerameyahu wrote:
Awesome, thanks for the clarification, Rob Boyle! I still think it's a little odd that we have nanotech and brain uploading, but you can't make a suit out of mylar, or Faraday pants, or whatever. :) I'll chalk it up to parallel advances in the taser technology to compensate.

Going out without your Faraday Pants is just asking for a tasing. ;)

Wed, 2012-12-19 10:53

#13

blackcoat

In what order does the

In what order does the physical damage and the shock damage happen? For instance, I hit someone with four shock batons, I deal 4d10+2+DB Shock. Which means that I do, say 28 shock damage. I hit someone with DUR 30 and wearing 10/10 Armour. So, they take 3 Wounds. They have to make 3 Knockdown checks (or is it just one? The rules are a little unclear) and an Unconsciousness check. They also have to make the shock stun check, and get a -30 on all rolls. My question is, does that -30 apply to the knockdown/unconsciousness check from the wounds as well, or is it for all ongoing rolls?

—

-- -blackcoat

Fri, 2012-12-21 19:01

#14

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

It's just one unconsciousness

It's just one unconsciousness check for the wound modifiers. Extra melee weapons are handled as a single attack, (p.206), and multiple wounds from a single attack call for an imidiate SOMx3 check to avoid unconsciousness. (p.207) I'd rule that damage is calculated before shock effect because the DUR loss effects the the resistance roll vs the shock effect. [i]"A biomorph struck with a shock weapon bust make a DUR+Energy Armor test (using their current DUR score, reduced by damage they have taken)."[/i] (p. 204)

—

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Mon, 2012-12-24 11:40

#15

blackcoat

RE: It's just one unconsciousness

The first part wasn't about the unconsciousness check from wounds, but knockdown. EP3, p207: Knockdown: Any time a character takes a wound, they must make an immediate SOM × 3 Test. Wound modifiers apply Vs EP3, p207 Unconsciousness: Any time a character receives 2 or more wounds at once (from the same attack), they must also make an immediate SOM × 3 Test; wound modifiers again apply The knockdown rules, because of the lack of "or more at once" seems to imply that, if I do three wounds to someone, they need to make three separate knockdown checks, and a single unconsciousnesses check.

—

-- -blackcoat

Sat, 2012-12-29 14:44

#16

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

I suppose it could be read

I suppose it could be read that way. I don't have supper tough PC's. Rolling knockdown checks (which is kind of annoying in micro G) is usually a superfluous extra roll when an unconsciousness check is called for also. It would deny my PC's thier chance to sustain heroic damage and maybe fight on. Rolling 3 knockdown checks and then an unconsciousness check (especially when you're talking about a DV that has been modified by Armor), is a lot of rolling that doesn't add any excitement to the game for my players. Then again, combat isn't really our main thing so YMMV

—

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Sun, 2016-04-17 18:13

#17

DeMalaise

Question: If the schock

Question: If the schock batton deals regular DV and the schock is just the "icing on the cake" - why is DV reduced to half with a successfull DUR-Check when the target is a biomorph. It seems unlikly, that a biomorph is better able to withstand a blow from a club than a synth.

Sun, 2016-04-17 18:27

#18

DeMalaise

I think I got it:

I think I got it: The shock baton deals normal club-damage In addition it deals a shock. -When the target fails its test, it goes down -When the target succeds the test, it gets addionals damage but stands.

Tue, 2016-04-19 20:10

#19

Lazarus

I think a shock baton is like

I think a shock baton is like what you see in a science fiction series when there's a situation such as guards armed with non-lethal melee weapons. Whenever you see those in the shows the shock is administered by pressing the tip against the target. I suppose that if you jabbed someone hard enough that could inflict some trauma but usually almost all the effect is from the charge. You could still club someone with one of those weapons but you would only do damage like a normal club in those situations since it is only the very tip that is electrified. Even if you did graze someone with the tip the contact would be much faster than the prolonged contact that the weapon is designed to use.

—

My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.

Sun, 2016-06-19 15:21

#20

TheGrue

RobBoyle wrote:Yerameyahu

RobBoyle wrote:
Yerameyahu wrote:
In that spirit, one last: shock is just *really* strong, right? Impossible (for a biomorph) to avoid the effects, only to partially resist them? Even Shock Proof armor gives a piddling +10, and you still are stunned a bit regardless, right?
Yep, just like in real life.

Found the guy who's never been shocked before.

—

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

Sat, 2016-06-25 11:34

#21

MAD Crab

Yeesh, this is an old thread

Yeesh, this is an old thread that's come back from the dead. But hey, it's alive again so I'm going to say my bit: Shock is absurdly powerful in EP. Irritatingly so. My first EP character was a walking biological tank of a novacrab who was put on the ground by one person with eelware. It was absurd that something with 15/15 armour, that is [i]immune to EMP because it has a photonic brain[/i] is somehow extra vulnerable to shocks. In real life, tasers have to actually pierce your skin to be effective. They're not going to be effective against armour, at all.

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