Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

Deleting an intruding infomorph

28 posts / 0 new
Last post
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Deleting an intruding infomorph
So there you are, enjoying a nice walk down the street, when, suddenly, you find your ecto infiltrated by an infomorph. The infomorph then claims asylum on your ecto, and refuses to leave, claiming it has nowhere to go. What do you do? This is a person who has intruded on your personal space (in EP, digital space is as much space as a room in your house), but even more so for an infomorph; they're essentially on life support there. So what can you do? Can't really kick them off, where would you send them? If they go to a jail, you face the same problem when they're out, and if you send them to dead storage, can you really call that moral? Who would ever revive them? So what do you do when your computer gets invaded by an ego who refuses to leave?
root root's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
root@Deleting an intruding infomorph [hr] Turn the ego off. Its pattern persists in the memory of your ecto, but gets no processor space. Since memory is essentially free, the only obligation you have is to drop the pattern off at the nearest infomorph-refugee processing department. If you happen to trust said department.
[ @-rep +1 | c-rep +1 | g-rep +1 | r-rep +1 ]
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
I suppose root's solution would be the "human" thing to do. Though... considering most places have laws allowing you to defend yourself from intruders on your real property via any reasonable means, including lethal force, I might not be shy about just pressing the "Delete" button depending on the intruder's intentions regarding my hardware.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
Ditto: Castle Doctrine.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
Well, given this is your ecto and not your mesh inserts, the threat to yourself is distinctly less than someone breaking into your home. Also, given that most any infomorph refugee centre is likely dead storage or basically forcing them to live either as indentures (or to sell them off as them)... You're entirely within your rights to do it, though. Given the relatively low cost of ectos, though, you could offer a work exchange agreement...
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
Depends on what I've got stored on my ecto though, doesn't it? I mean, I may have a storage shed out back that I don't keep anything particularly valuable in, but that still doesn't mean I'm going to let any hobo off the street just invite himself into it without at least [i]asking[/i] me if I'm okay with it first. It's just common courtesy.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
Yes, but you're not exactly going to turn the hobo over to slave traders or put him in a chemical coma if he invites himself in either, right?
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
You must not be American. ;) I kid. I guess you'd respond as normal: call the designated hab authorities, if they exist. Pass the moral buck to someone else.
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Yes, but you're not exactly going to turn the hobo over to slave traders or put him in a chemical coma if he invites himself in either, right?
Well, that'll certainly learn him not to go into places uninvited again, won't it? ;)
Yerameyahu wrote:
You must not be American. ;) I kid. I guess you'd respond as normal: call the designated hab authorities, if they exist. Pass the moral buck to someone else.
God bless AMURREKAH. <3 But yes, that's about what I'd do, again provided I don't feel threatened. Otherwise, DELETEDELETEDELETE.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
Thinking about it, it seems to be a great intro to an adventure: "Hey! You're not supposed to be there!" "Please! Keep quiet, they are after me and I need somewhere to hide!"
Extropian
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
Lilith wrote:
I mean, I may have a storage shed out back that I don't keep anything particularly valuable in, but that still doesn't mean I'm going to let any hobo off the street just invite himself into it without at least [i]asking[/i] me if I'm okay with it first.
But in most states, you also couldn't shoot him. Castle doctrine doesn't totally apply because the intruder is (presumably) not posing a physical threat to you. If this isn't the case, yes, castle doctrine applies, nuke the bastard. Castle doctrine also doesn't apply to most places outside of the US (which, coincidentally, is most places). Slightly more applicable (and I apologize in advance for bringing it up) is abortion; you have a right to control your own body and property, including turning off functions running inside of it. Regardless this answer will vary from location to location. The Junta (infomorph has no rights) and Extropia (you have supreme control over your property) will let you nuke the infomorph, but Titan may not (infomorph is part of the community, and you may have to temporarily give up your personal access for the good of others).
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
But in most states, you also couldn't shoot him. Castle doctrine doesn't totally apply because the intruder is (presumably) not posing a physical threat to you.
It's my word against his as to whether or not he was a threat to me, and if he's dead, the argument's already in my favor. This isn't to say I'm some trigger-happy kook (like most of the people that 'round these parts in the Deep South, where yes, you can pretty much do whatever you like to an intruder on your property in the name of "self-defense"), of course. I don't even own a gun because I don't like the idea of having one around me. Still, an intruder on my premises is most unwelcome, and I've got plenty of bludgeons to defend myself with until the cops show up, dang it. And must we open the abortion can of worms again? :(
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
I'm not even sure what to say about the abortion remark... I don't doubt that, on Titan, the idea of giving up one's ecto is not a big deal, but, then, an infomorph could probably just find blueprints for a simple servitor robot and an ecto, or run on a public network. The question of this is, perhaps, stickier in contexts of regions like the PC, Luna, Venus, etc., rather than anarchist habs or the JR.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
I think it's not about the cheap ecto, it's about the invasion of your files, potentially your entire life in recordings.
cappadocius cappadocius's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Yes, but you're not exactly going to [...] put him in a chemical coma if he invites himself in either, right?
¬_¬ ⌐_⌐ Nooooooooo, of [b]course[/b] I'm not. Who told you otherwise?!
Tell me, O Octopus, I begs Is those things arms, or is they legs? I marvel at thee, Octopus; If I were thou, I'd call me Us. -- Ogden Nash [img]http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9071/upliftuserbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img7.imageshack.us/img7
BOMherren BOMherren's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
It's on your ecto, hogging your bandwidth, processing power and storage space, and compromising your private files. Even deactivated, it poses a potential security risk. Who knows who or what might be after it, or what sort of malware and messed-up crap it's got stored away in its personality matrix? I agree that it might not be entirely responsible for its present circumstances - but responsibility is a matter of degree, and unless you have actively contributed to it, then you are even less responsible.
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Yes, but you're not exactly going to turn the hobo over to slave traders or put him in a chemical coma if he invites himself in either, right?
Considering that your ecto probably contains extensive recordings and other sensitive information, is part of your PAN, and is only one step removed from your brain, I think your metaphor would be more appropriate if the bum were boring into your skull with a filth-encrusted corkscrew while rifling through your diary, financial records and psyche profile. Maybe, if it has good rep or you have some way of storing it safely, you can make some sort of a deal with it, or turn it off immediately and dump it into the nearest public access terminal or infugee center as an errand of mercy. But if for whatever reason that's not an option, then I don't think you're out of line for just deleting it.
Re-Laborat Re-Laborat's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
Of course, if you delete the intruding infomorph and take the data it brought with it to Rick's Café Américain, and then get asked where the infomorph is that owned the data, things may not go as well as planned. But that's where fun begins.
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
I see two possibilities -if the intruder has some interesting skills, prune him/her/them into indenture with a servitude fetish, making him/her/them a "house sprite" so to speak. -if he's useless or rebellous sell his digital ass to 9 Lives. Doesn't hurt to gain some G-rep sometimes. how much creds would it bring me, by the way?
[center] Q U I N C E Y ^_*_^ F O R D E R [/center] Remember The Cant! [img]http://tinyurl.com/h8azy78[/img] [img]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/theeye_fanzine_us...
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
They'd probably be worth more if you gave them someone useful. Delete them if they aren't worth much, sell them to Nine Lives or the ID Crew if they happen to have any valuable skills. They'll pay extra if you conditioned it for loyalty ahead of time, I bet.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
Unity wrote:
They'd probably be worth more if you gave them someone useful. Delete them if they aren't worth much, sell them to Nine Lives or the ID Crew if they happen to have any valuable skills.
I guess Nine Lives will behave like an used bookstore when somebody tries to sell yet another a slightly scruffed periodical to them. "Sorry, sir, but we got the shelves full of random infugees."
Quote:
They'll pay extra if you conditioned it for loyalty ahead of time, I bet.
This definitely adds value to whoever they are, so the price would likely be one level higher. But how many normal people have the skills and ruthlessness to properly condition people? This likely what the syndicates have specialized in, and they have advantages of experience and economies of scale.
Extropian
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
On that note, how do you check out a prospective purchase to verify that it has been so conditioned? To what extent (and with what speed) can you determine any of the abilities of a given infomorph?
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
That would be harder, so I would expect a measure of interrogation and simspace interviewing to be involved. As for Nine Lives: While you are right in that most people will not be very good at it in comparison to that syndicate, those few that do have the ability could make quite a bit of credit and g-rep on the side if they happen to sell intruding, conditioned infomorphs to such groups. Of course, that is probably how they recruit members in the first place, gobbling up the few independents who are good at this.
BOMherren BOMherren's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
I would imagine that soulstealers prefer "pristine", unaltered Egos. A sloppy conditioning job might cause lasting damage which is costly to repair, and a skilled and malicious psychosurgeon could implant harmful data into the Ego which is difficult to detect, possibly at the behest of a sneaky competitor or authority. Besides, any serious soulstealer is going to have to perform quality control and custom tailoring. In a world where Infugees, their forks and LAI substitutes are already a dime a dozen, the real Ego-nabbing business is not going to be in bulk-order slaves. What I wonder is, what does it take to safely store and/or run an Ego? Say one is a soulstealer who e.g. has recently intercepted an Egocast, or just finds oneself in the situation described by the OP. What precautions would need to be made, to allow the infomorph to run on your PAN-connected device, without risk to one's own privacy or safety?
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
It depends; some people know what they're doing, and if you can confirm they did in fact do the conditioning right they'd probably pay top cred for it. They might try to recruit you, for doing such quality work. Or they might kill you to avoid freelance competition; this might still happen if you turn down their offer of joining. Anyway, as for storing and running; I assume they have non-wireless enabled servers or computing clusters of ectos and/or disembodied cyberbrains that keep the Egos stored as uninstantiated backups, when they aren't being used. Because they aren't wireless enabled, the infomorph can only access what is on the ecto or cyberbrain, and if you were smart you limited their permissions quite thoroughly. At least, that's my understanding of it. Now, if you want to actively use them, first you'd have to condition them for loyalty; then you would probably want to run them on a ghostrider module, where you can explicitly control the infomorph's permissions in terms of accessing anything. This allows for a measure of security for the intrepid soulstealer looking to make use of their new slave.
JamesX JamesX's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
For the infomorph to arrive in your ecto it means it comes from somewhere. So it always have a place to go. But how expensive is an Ecto anyways? Isn't it a trivial cost? Just toss it and buy a new one. Isn't the existence of 1 Infomorph of questionable morality worth 100 credits? That aside, I don't think Ecto is big enough to house an actual infomorph in an interactive state. If it is stored in an Ecto it is at most just a backup data. What you are seeing is probably just his/her avatar icon - e.g. droning/jamming your Ecto. The actual infomorph is in the mesh still. A full blown Infomorph needs at least an cyberbrain structure to actually be housed.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
That's not the RAW, though. They can certainly run on a Ghostrider, and p247 specifically says they can run on ectos, mesh inserts, etc. Also, did you read the earlier parts, where people talked about all the important, private information an intruder might have access to? It's not just a question of them wasting a Trivial ecto.
JamesX JamesX's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
I didn't read all the reply before replying to the OP. I think I have different view of what Run means. Run as in they can be displayed or communciate through? or Run as in it has the processing power to process all the calculation that would simulate an infomorph's existence? To me it means this Graphic Card can run this game, but actually it can't. It just means the graphic card has the necessary hardware to actually display the output of the game. The game still needs a full processor to actually run. Infomorph is not just data, it is a constant processing power. Though I have to point out that I just started reading the books since a friend is planning to run it soon. So my views are not fully informed. As for all the private information on the Ecto... I am not sure what private information is endangered. The Ecto is just an interface. One can say that all the data is stored in the Mesh/Cloud and accessed through your Mesh ID/Muse Identification/Biometrics/Whateverelse etc. Gaining access to the Ecto might compromise the data if they are hidden and do so on the long term, but otherwise it is about the same as someone sitting next to you looking at your keyboard and monitor. On the off chance that someone is paranoid and wishes to hard store their data on their actual hardware, then there might be an issue. Then in those case you can proceed with whatever method you feel best satisfies your morality in dealing with your security. Plus you can learn a valuable lesson about if you are security minded you should pay the money to have a secure device instead of using an 100 credit Ecto.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Deleting an intruding infomorph
No worries, this is how you get questions answered. :) Because devices are pretty abstract in EP, 'run' means the whole enchilada: 'store and independently process the entire program'. Anything that's not a Peripheral can run an AI/AGI/infomorph (p247). An ecto is not merely an interface. It's a whole general purpose personal computer (and equivalent to your mesh implants). You're right, you can use it with all data stored remotely, but that doesn't alter the question. Having an intruder in your ecto is roughly the same as having an intruder in your house; sure, your money is largely in the bank, but that doesn't mean there's nothing in your house, nor that you'd let them keep it. Even if it's a totally empty house, they could still intercept your mail. :) In addition, this is a complex world. While you could store your data in 'the cloud' (which probably means the hab's official mesh, assuming there is one), EP characters tend to have more mobile lives than that. It's not paranoid (not as a pejorative, anyway) to keep your data with you.