At first glance, I haven't yet gotten into playing with increasing aptitudes and skills to create "surplus" of points, the method of linking skills to aptitudes and also doubling the cost of skills over 60 seems like a mistake. Not having run the game yet, is there some kernel of wisdom or practical purpose behind these rules that I'm overlooking?
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CP and RP variation, raising skills
Thu, 2011-07-07 15:43
#1
junkgrafter
CP and RP variation, raising skills
Thu, 2011-07-07 16:05
#2
Yerameyahu
Re: CP and RP variation, raising skills
What is your question? Skills have an increasing-cost 'curve' (not a very curvy one, admittedly). :) This discourages overspecialization (crunch), and reflects a diminishing-returns reality (fluff). EP's (weird) attribute-linking doesn't really affect this; you *do* pay when increasing an Apt raises a skill over 60.
Thu, 2011-07-07 17:38
#3
junkgrafter
Re: CP and RP variation, raising skills
If you purchase Skills with RP, you get nowhere near as much as if you purchase Aptitudes with multiple linked Skills that would be raised over 60. Spending points in Aptitudes practically pays for itself, almost as if the game is giving the player RP as a reward for spending it on Aptitudes. I always imagine that game developers make rules for some purpose, and that the "front end" is designed as a consistent game experience. This (weird) state of skills makes me wonder just what the developers are getting at.
Thu, 2011-07-07 17:49
#4
Yerameyahu
Re: CP and RP variation, raising skills
Hm. I'm not sure I follow. Raising an Apt 1 point costs 10 RP, while raising a Skill 1 point costs 1 (2 over 60). If you raise an Apt for a Skill that's already at/above 60, you pay the 1 RP surcharge for every point of skill the Apt gives you. (That is, if you had 5 linked skills above 60 and raised your Apt 1 point, it'd cost you 10+5=15 RP, or 150% of just raising all those skills.) And your Apts are subject to morph and absolute max (40).
So what's the scenario where it's so efficient? You'd have to have 10 linked Skills (really only reasonable with COG). Can you spell out your numbers?
Thu, 2011-07-07 17:56
#5
junkgrafter
Re: CP and RP variation, raising skills
We imagine that a character spends 100 RP to raise his SOM to 40, ignoring the additional RP spent per linked skill. His total Climb is now 80. We imagine that instead he raises Climb to 50 for 20 RP. His total Climb is now 80. It seems at first glance that purchasing the Skill instead of the Aptitude is inexpensive, but the truth is more complicated.
Aptitude raises two values, but Skill raises only one; therefore the RP cost of a rising Skill can be "discounted" from the Aptitude cost. It's as if the character has spent 120 RP instead of 100. If a character has 5 linked Skills that would be raised above 60 by a single Aptitude and he raises his Aptitude with 105 RP (10 RP / 1 AP + 5RP / 1 "linked skill over 60") it is as if he has spent 205 RP.
While many RPGs have a few font traits that combine with multiple other traits, none of those systems are so gratuitous as Eclipse Phase. This is a direct result of skill linking.
Thu, 2011-07-07 18:15
#6
Yerameyahu
Re: CP and RP variation, raising skills
I'm sorry, I'm still hung up on the numbers, though. SOM is 30, (Climb–SOM) is also 30 (?). Spending 100 RP on SOM yields SOM 40, Climb 80… with (I don't see why to ignore the surcharge) a surcharge of 10 RP (total, 110 RP spent). Directly raising Climb to 80 (from *60*) would still be 40 RP (20 points, all of them above 60). So, about 1/3 the cost.
Second example: APT 30, 5 linked skills at 30. Each 15 RP gives you 10 RP worth of skill points (5*2), right? (Plus the benefit of 1 point of APT, of course). So, f ou had 105 RP (wow!), that'd be APT +7 points, 5 skills +7 points each. 35 skill points, for 105 RP?
It's true that *if* you can scrape together enough linked skills, raising the Apt (up to the morph and max limits, again) can be a useful option (if, of course, very expensive in absolute terms). If you happen to be under your max (morph or 40), and you have several linked skills on one Apt, and you have enough RP lying around to float the buy, then yes.
I think this is rare enough and mild enough that it's not an issue, and I don't see how the >60 surcharge affects the question. I certainly wouldn't say that EP is even notably 'gratuitous' about it. :)
Thu, 2011-07-07 18:25
#7
junkgrafter
Re: CP and RP variation, raising skills
You're correct about the surcharge, I forgot. Where I typed 105 it should be 150 (250) because of the surcharge you mentioned. My apologies.
What I posted earlier was a segment of an argument I was writing, the first part as follows:
There is an obvious problem here; if an aptitude is higher during character creation, then a skill is more expensive. If a character has SOM 30, then purchasing Climb 40 will cost 50 CP. If a character has SOM 40, then purchasing Climb 40 will cost 60 CP. The quantity of Climb does not change, but the cost of Climb rises. This continues to be a problem with RP when the character improves after character creation.
Thu, 2011-07-07 18:33
#8
Yerameyahu
Re: CP and RP variation, raising skills
I appreciate you sticking with me here. :) So, it seems to me that you don't get 'free APT' until you're leveling up 10 linked skills that you were going to level up anyway. At that point, you're spending 20 RP for 10 skill points, which is what they'd cost anyway. So, yes: every linked skill is giving you a 'discount' on the linked Apt, up to 10 skills. (Which, again, is a lot; it can be done, esp. with COG, but my position is that it's not a problem). If someone wants to be good at 10+ skills on the same Apt, I would probably appreciate their generality.
Did I screw up the math anywhere, or make other mistakes?
Post-edit: Ah! You're saying that it's more efficient to start with lower Apts, and raise them with RP. Without looking at the math (because I believe there's a tradeoff there), what's the problem there? CP is now, RP is (much) later. I'd be okay with an opportunity cost of instant gratification.
I also think you're focusing too much on the (nonexistent) concept of 'bare skill'. EP has a funky stat+skill system that doesn't have a 'bare skill' component. So you're not buying Climb 40; you're buying Climb 70 or 80.