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Cosmetic surgery in EP

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It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Cosmetic surgery in EP
In another thread I raised the topic of using simple cosmetic surgery to conceal a morph's true type, or to eliminate the "uncanny valley" flaw. (Say getting a head of hair grafted onto a remade, like I would...) One of the designers said I may have found a glitch in the system as a notable flaw like uncanny valley (Maybe we should rename it "Michael Jackson face syndrome" so people know what we're taliing about more clearly.) with simple, cheap cosmetic surgery which, in EP's time and tech level, might be something you but a "DIY" kit for at Xmart or something like that. Well, I wasn't looking to poke holes in EP and for the record I like it and don't want to bust on it just to bust on it, but I did consider that in EPs time plastic surgery is going to be in all likelihood a trivial matter, which makes you wonder about "morph masking" to conceal that futura morph. OK, so we can mostly accept that fairly major effect plastic surgery is likely to be a very simple and inexpensive matter in a world of nanotech and microbots, where you might even have your own private surgical AL unit with all the tools needed to do a real number on your appearance. (Hey, it's a world where putting in a mind recorder is a routine procedure...) So what are the effects of plastic surgery in EP and how to be handle it in game terms? Like I said, one use I'd have would be to get a nice thick black rug put on my remade morph. Frak that baldie look! I was also wondering if morphs have distinct looks would someone be willing and able to use plstic surgery to conceal the fact they have, say, a fury morph? So you could have a fury bodyguard that's done uo to look like a pleasure pod, which could be a real big surprise to anyone attacking the guy it's protecting. Conversely you might have a stock morph but have it made up to look like a fury on the theory it's likely to discourage people from messing with you. Also, on this topic, I wonder if a person's ID would list his actual morph type, and would this be required to be public information or would privacy laws allow a person to not reveal his morph type just like people aren't required to carry signs saying, for example "I'm a diabetic!" today? (Of course there are cases where you might want tomeone to know your morph type, like, say, doctors.) Just some food for thought here, guls. Chow down.

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

750 750's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
iirc, uncanny valley is more then simple looks, its a disconnect between appearance and behavior. btw, i cant see a uncanny valley trait listed on the futura morph. did i miss a errata or something?
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
750 wrote:
iirc, uncanny valley is more then simple looks, its a disconnect between appearance and behavior. btw, i cant see a uncanny valley trait listed on the futura morph. did i miss a errata or something?
The remade has uncanny valley. I was thinking of getting a morph like that for a lost character if anything happened to their futura. When I said someone might want to conceal their futura morph, I mean that they might want to conceal the fact they're a Lost. I understand the confusion and admit I wasn't perfectly clear there.

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

Scion Scion's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
Uncanny valley might also involve factors such as expanding the skull to allow for more brain space, changing the ratios in the length of limbs and any other major change. These are minor enough that the morph is still 'human' but so intrinsic that they can't be hidden.
750 750's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
iirc, thats exactly whats in the description of the remade morph. hell, the description reeks of "gray".
The Sandman The Sandman's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
I would think that the sort of ego likely to be tooling around in a remade morph isn't going to care about aesthetic niceties like hair. Now, they may have something that looks like hair from a distance, but that isn't when you see it up close; it's some sort of metallic fiber designed to conduct heat away from the brainpan and thus increase its efficiency. And the Futuras are probably something where everybody knows what they look like; from the way they describe it, the project was being openly and heavily hyped as the Next Big Thing before its catastrophic failure, and I'd expect that the new series of morphs designed for the post-Fall children would have gotten a lot of airtime. So hiding whatever physical and physiological markers were being used to distinguish Futuras from your standard splicer is going to require something more thorough than the standard cosmetic surgery. The fact that morphs designed after the Lost debacle went public have almost certainly been tailored to not be confused with a morph with the unpleasant associations of the Futura is going to make it even harder to hide; there probably just aren't any morphs that look all that close to a Futura.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
The uncanny valley isn't really a concept of different looks so much as it is a concept of "too similar" looks. Remades are significantly taller than most people, have a different skeletal structure, digestive tract, cardiovascular system, muscular system, and are in general built for excellence. Modifying them to look more human will take away some of the physical aspects which make them so much more superior. That said, I think it fair to note that the uncanny valley trait is not something that affects everyone equally. Some people (especially fellow remade and ultimates) will find you very attractive, and might even be taken aback by the sight of a remade who has tried to make himself look human. If you want an example of this in effect in the real world, ask around about how people think of the people in Avatar. Some will say they look like living beings, while others will say there was something off. To that end, it's been well documented that the uncanny valley is actually less prominent amongst those raised in eastern cultures in comparison to those raised in the west, especially those who are members of an Abrahamic faith. Just because your remade body isn't universally accepted doesn't mean that everyone finds them disgusting.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
Also, nothing stops you from taking the Uncanny Valley and Striking Looks traits. I did so with one of my characters; she was less "Grey Alien" and more "Anime Catgirl".

+1 r-Rep , +1 @-rep

King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
As a GM (in other RPG systems), Regarding the removal of disadvantages & flaws, I generally consider that task twice as costly as the disadvantage (at least). Adding extra flaws, for no benefit - Is something I approve of (But the cost to remove them would still be; like there had been a benefit) I always considered, uncanny valley as something separate from appearance. No matter how lifelike it looks -it can still have uncanny valley. The general publics Pattern recognition marks it as "faulty", "creepy" or "eerie". So the unhappy would need more work, for example psycho-surgery to get a "correct" pattern behavior. People learned by television, get strange readings on mundane events -that defies the TV logic. This is more on the line of "real world naivety", though. On this topic of uncanny valley, I consider it existing several of these "uncanny valleys". Between the inhabitants of EP. Wearing a Modified fury morph could cause other Users of that model feel strangely uncomfortable against the wearer. Customizing morphs is probably very popular, for numerous reasons. The laws and constraints would depend where ones at. What the effects of modifications depends of any number of things. The available technology and skill; can range from sparse to abundant. Was the plastic surgeon a Hack, a Quack, a Artist, Professionally strict or just in a good mood?
JohnMatrix JohnMatrix's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
I agree there is definitely a demand for a modification to conceal the clade of a morph. But I don't think cosmetic surgery is going to do that. On the issue of Uncanny Valley, I don't think cosmetic surgery is going to do what much in mitigating it. It's not just a cosmetic effect. It's something about the morph that sets it apart. In the example of the Remade, the morph has been specifically redesigned from the ground up to outperform a regular human morph. It moves in a manner that is inhumanely efficient because it's skeletal system isn't human. An Remade morph isn't something that evolved from a tree-dwelling hominid that came down from the trees, it's a humanoid machine that's engineered without any of that excess-and-inefficient-baggage. So while an Remade morph might "look funny", slapping some hair on that sucker and giving it a face lift isn't going to change the fundamental sense that it isn't quite human. (In fact, I'm pretty sure that'd just creep people out further.)
giblfiz@gmail.com giblfiz@gmail.com's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
I have always had the impression that the "uncanny valley" is more about how something moves than it is about what it looks like. So I would say that the differences that are causing the uncanny valley disad are probably related to muscle & joint placement which makes a remade move in a way that's just not quite right. Fixing them would probably cut into that +10 SOM. You can probably also look at the discussion of buying "synthetic mask" for a synth. Consensus seems to be that you can hide the "clanking masses" dis-ad, but the uncanny valley is harder to shake.
750 750's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
more like a combo of things then one specific feature, from what i can tell. something about it looking oh so human, but behaving, moving or in some other way showing that its not human at the same time. heck, now that i type it, i cant help wonder if this reaction is the source of the "shall not copy gods work" or whatever those holy books go on about. could be that its similar to our fear of snakes or spiders, but directed towards ape like beings.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
I have always had the impression that the "uncanny valley" is more about how something moves than it is about what it looks like. So I would say that the differences that are causing the uncanny valley disad are probably related to muscle & joint placement which makes a remade move in a way that's just not quite right. Fixing them would probably cut into that +10 SOM. You can probably also look at the discussion of buying "synthetic mask" for a synth. Consensus seems to be that you can hide the "clanking masses" dis-ad, but the uncanny valley is harder to shake.
The big problem is in how the Remade are structured. Cases and synths are much smaller than normal humans, so a synthetic mask essentially acts as a soft outer casing that makes them bigger and gives them a human form. Remade, on the other hand, tower over the average human, and are better built to boot. Even if you put some sort of synthetic mask over them, they would look unnatural out of sheer size and physique.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
babayaga babayaga's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
As for "Uncanny Valley": there's Uncanny Valley and Uncanny Valley. That of Steel Liberator morphs can be explicitly negated by a Synthetic Mask. That of Remades is probably impossible to mask through plain cosmetic surgery without negative effects - Remades look different because they are engineered to be superior (larger brains, taller, stronger etc.). We had a similar issue in our game because one of the characters wanted a morph that had the high aptitude limit of the Remade without looking inhuman (and with a different, more "social" spread of aptitude bonuses). Our solution was to allow the Uncanny Valley 10 pt. negative trait to be swapped for the Unfit 10 pt. negative trait (lowering the aptitude limit of SOM, COO and REF by 5 each). A note on Futuras. There is no Social Stigma attached to Futura morphs. It's just a rare Exalted variant. Check it out in the morph description. Social Stigma is attached to the Lost, regardless of the morph they are wearing (as long as it gets known that they are Lost). You can have a non-Lost background and start with a Futura morph, just not the other way around, and I bet most Futuras out there are worn by non-Lost.
JohnMatrix JohnMatrix's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
Cosmetic surgery won't deal with a Remade morphs Uncanny Valley trait because it's a deep-structure result of the Remade's fundamental design. In addition, the uncanny valley hypothesis theorises that as a human facsimile approaches true human appearance or behaviour, it creates a feeling of revulsion. Cosmetic procedures designed to patch over a Remade's more than human flaws, will just result in a heightened sense of revulsion or ridiculousness. Like a grizzly bear wearing a man suit, it's not going to fool anyone, they're either going to run or laugh. The Uncanny Valley trait is something that only effects certain Egos. AGI's and Uplifts aren't subject to the effect. To the Ultimates, the Uncanny Valley is a result of primitive egos still clinging to antiquated mentalities. Just like you wouldn't change your appearance if a short sighted friend without glasses described you as fuzzy, you wouldn't subject yourself to extensive surgical remodelling for someone who found your Remade morph unsettling. An ego who purchases a Remade, then spends resources trying to make it look more human is a body-modder or body-broker's cash cow. They're going to be offering all sorts of cosmetic surgeries and implants milking all the credits and favours they can get out of the sucker, each time promising that the procedure will minimise their social issues and offering something else more drastic each time it fails. Egos who sleeve into Remade's and then angst over the Uncanny Valley effect are like city-slickers who buy huge four-wheel drives, never intending to take them off asphalt. Egos who go for the cosmetic surgery options are the like the people who buy spray on mud for those same cars. The Remade is an ideal morph for the Ultimates faction, as it was designed for their sensibilities. Egos who buy it simply for the bonuses are going to have to live with their buyers remorse or get over their primitive mindsets.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Cosmetic surgery in EP
I have a question: Since the Uncanny Valley becomes stronger the closer you get to (without reaching) human appearance, what about going in the other direction? Instead of making yourself into a more human sort of appearance, why not go full-bore in the opposite direction? Certainly, this will make you more unusual, but people regularly deal with dragonfly-like robots and talking birds; how oddly are they going to look at you for it? Before someone says it, yes, that will vary by habitat, but you get my meaning. So what about Remades who, instead of being more human, become more alien or animalistic?