Decivre wrote:

Actually, surya visual communication seems to use rather binary means of transferring language, relying on patterns of light and dark shifting to send the message. It is effectively akin to morse code, and would be relatively easy to do even within the confines of the sun. Their more common form of communication is through song, for which their proficient ability to hear ultrasonic vibrations is best for. Also, remember that you cannot use your own experiences necessarily to discern the experiences of a being in a different body. It'd be like me saying "I jump in water and can't breathe, so fish can't breathe in water either!" The photoreceptive organs of a surya likely work vastly different from those within the human eye, and it would be difficult to even try to get a grasp on how it works. It's akin to how I can't even begin to understand how a bloodhound is able to discern individual scents, or how they can tell everything about another creature they smell from whether they have a disease to what part of their menstrual cycle they are in. It's an amazing function, for which us humans have no analog.

If you want to argue along those ideas, you can take the squid as an example. There are species of squid that use visual queues to communicate, even though their eye sight is quite limited (when compared to human eye sight). It all comes down to it you know what your looking for (ie your eyes are designed to pick out the visual communication queues). I would say the Suryas are not possible for many other reasons (extreme heat, lack of oxygen, lack of protection from radiation, lack of food supply, etc). Some of these reasons there have been handwavium used to explain them, but I think it would have been a lot better if the Suryas were originally Synths instead of biomorphs (then most of the handwavium becomes more believable).

Decivre wrote:

Actually, they've gone a long way to explaining how suryas are able to survive on the corona of the sun. A combination of their self-generated magnetosphere, radiovorous metabolism (solarians metabolize solar radiation) and medichine technology (their bodies are effectively repairing radiation damage at all times) go a long way to allowing them to survive there. It isn't plausible within the context of technology today, but we know that these sorts of technologies are feasible... even if we don't know whether it would be possible to create this organism.

Mostly it is handwavium (which is fine I guess) but I think it would have been more feasible to make the Surya a synthmorph and say that they are using a combination of a Leidenfrost effect and nanotechnology without worrying about biological needs.

TBRMInsanity wrote:

Mostly it is handwavium (which is fine I guess) but I think it would have been more feasible to make the Surya a synthmorph and say that they are using a combination of a Leidenfrost effect and nanotechnology without worrying about biological needs.

I don't see how it is handwavium. Perhaps they handwave how the technology progressed so far (to which point virtually all of Eclipse Phase is handwaved; we don't know yet if nanotechnology can become as advanced as it is shown in the setting), but the individual aspects of the surya do actually exist in real life. There are organisms that are radiovores (digest radiation), natural processes which generate magnetic fields, and theoretical nanomachines. The only real question is whether they could ever achieve what they do in unison, as the surya represents it... but again, this is something we could ask about everything in Eclipse Phase.

TBRMInsanity wrote:

You do have a point, and I guess my only point was it would be easier (from a EP tech level point of view) to have the Surya as a synth instead of a biomorph. But I guess I missed the point in human nature that says, if something is possible, then transhumanity will find a way to make it happen.

The decision to make it a BioMorph could also be influenced by the general biochauvinism that is present in the inner system. Synths have certain connotations attached to them. Cheap, worker, soldier type connotations. If you have the resources to sleeve yourself in a sun dwelling space mammal you don't want to look cheap.

Duke Rollo wrote:

@Decivre... You asked, "Why would they need the ability to block out visual light?" Have you SEEN the sun? It's bright. It's so very bright. It's the brightest object in the sky. Have you ever looked at a halogen lamp? It's brighter. So let's assume that you're right and it doesn't damage their eyes (which it should. Visual light will burn out your corneas no problemo... ). My beef is that everything in Eclipse Phase makes a sort of sense except the Suryas. Nothing else asks me to believe something that's both X and not-X, you know? Everything makes a sort of sense based on what we know. The Surya is the first time the authors are asking me to believe that light doesn't behave like light... that something in the sun can block out all the solar radiation AND somehow let through the comparatively tiny amount of light from the other suryas. It's like me telling you, "When you go to this super loud rock concert, I have these ear plugs that will block out ALL the noise, but you'll be able to hear people whispering 100 feet away through all the shouting fans." There's a way for it to happen using sound filtering... but the book doesn't talk about filtering. It just assumes that SOMETHING happens to let space whales chat each other up with visual light in a maelstrom of visual light. So.... AGAIN... I'm willing to believe it's possible. I just need an answer that isn't handwavium.

Again, light itself does nothing to your eyes. Thermal energy is what screws up your eyes, which halogen lights, the sun, and virtually every light source produces on a secondary level. However, surya body cells are not going to be structured the same way as our cells are, and are likely more vastly more tolerant to heat than ours is. As a simpler example of this on Earth, clostridium botulinum can survive within water at boiling temperatures whereas human skin begins to burn at far lower temperatures (about 130 degrees fahrenheit). Suryas take this to an exotic level, likely using certain rare earth minerals to increase the curability of their own cell structures (boron, perhaps). That said, whether this comes off as "handwavium" really depends on what your definition of handwavium is. If your definition of handwavium is "everything that isn't possible with today's technology", then virtually all science fiction except perhaps [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NextSundayAD]speculative sci-fi taking place only a short time from now with technology currently being tested[/url] would qualify as handwavium... and nearly everything in Eclipse Phase would qualify as well.

Duke Rollo wrote:

I'm fine with there being some cool filtering technology that lets suryas do this. But that isn't what people are saying to me. You're saying that it just happens. Which isn't how the rest of EP is written. How ever Suryas are able to see one another as more than just specks of darkness against the backdrop of the sun, EXPLAIN THAT. At least a little. Don't just tell me that's how they do it. That's like saying "People just go from places like Venus to places like Mars in a couple hours" without explaining egocasting.

What could be happening is that the Surya might broadcast at specific wavelengths not especially present in solar light. Then the filters could be designed to allow more of those specific wavelengths through, but block 99% of all other wavelengths. -karma

Eleazar wrote:

Also, I don't know why you're assigning such a vast distance between the viewer and the messenger. That doesn't make sense for any form of natural communication. This goes into my own suspension of disbelief, which wonders how magnetic field surfing can be so precise as to allow close formation flying.

I imagine pattern flashing to be a fairly intimate method of communication, the equivalent of whispering. The distances that must be involved almost make that a certainty. For anything farther away than a few lengths of their own bodies I imagine it is more efficient to use either sound or mesh use, but then even mesh use becomes difficult when you are sitting in one of the solar systems biggest white noise generators.

Found this online at the Lawrence Berkeley website: [img]http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/sb/Aug-2004/reflectance_wave... I see a couple of wavelength gaps there. -karma

That brings a question to my mind how far can a Surya venture from the sun? could it reach Mercury's orbit?

Duke Rollo wrote:

The more I think about suryas the less sense they make. If they can survive in the sun, then why isn't there a device or implant that a biomorph can use to deal with energy weapons? If we can build a magnetic field that can withstand THE SUN then why aren't there shields that block lasers or plasma? If it requires a tremendous amount of energy then why not have it activate only when needed? For a few nano-seconds or the like? If it's too large a device then why isn't it vehicle mounted?

Because there is? In fact its the entire point of the Coronal Adaption trait. Gives an automatic 10 armour against all energy weapons. If you dont want to pick up the 30 CP trait (Expensive!) you can buy yourself the Solar Survival Suit, that does all this and more!

Duke Rollo wrote:

@Decivre Sir, kindly divorce yourself from the idea that my argument is "I can't do it so it can't be done". That not what I'm arguing and you insisting it is (with your smelling example) only serves to frustrate both of us. I'm not here to frustrate you, nor am I going to entertain any more "tellings off". Instead, kindly address what I've put forward: that the science behind everything in Eclipse Phase is based in the reality of near-future technology and requires a minimal suspension of disbelief. For farcasting I don't have to re-define how radio waves travel. For habitats, I don't have to change the rules of how architecture works. For uplifts, no one is telling me that they're 100% biomorphs AND have robotic parts. Everything makes sense. EXCEPT for the Suryas which demand that we believe (without any real explanation as to how) that they can both filter the harmful light of the sun AND AT THE SAME TIME not filter out light coming from their friends. Just tell me how they can do this and I'll be happy.

Actually, little to none of the technology in Eclipse Phase is anything remotely "near-future". If anything, it is extremely advanced versions of technology that is currently theoretical or in its pure infancy. No research team has come remotely close to creating nanomachines which can produce large objects. No research team has ever created a metamaterial object larger than a few nanometers in size. No research team has ever produced a machine powered by antimatter. No research team has ever produced an artificial intelligence capable of similar intelligence to human beings. No research team has ever successfully emulated a human brain on a computer system. The largest portion of technology in Eclipse Phase does not exist today in a usable way. These things have never happened, and we only know in theory that they are possible. As for some of the things you have mentioned, you are incorrect. Farcasting DOES redefine transmissions (they use neutrino waves, which no one has yet found a way to transmit with information). Habitats DO redefine architecture (toroidal and cylindrical habitats DO NOT EXIST in real life, and are theoretically-designed space architectures). Uplifts do have non-organic parts (all artificial morphs have mesh inserts and cortical stacks, neither of which are organic). Everything only makes sense in the context of the setting itself. They may be one day possible, but the point of Eclipse Phase is to immerse oneself into a setting in which these things do exist, irregardless to whether humanity one day finds out that some of them are an impossibility. Plus, I've completely ignored TITAN and ETI technology, which essentially evokes the [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SufficientlyAdvancedAlien]Suf... Advanced Alien[/url] trope to such a high degree that it might as well be fantasy elements.

Duke Rollo wrote:

The more I think about suryas the less sense they make. If they can survive in the sun, then why isn't there a device or implant that a biomorph can use to deal with energy weapons? If we can build a magnetic field that can withstand THE SUN then why aren't there shields that block lasers or plasma? If it requires a tremendous amount of energy then why not have it activate only when needed? For a few nano-seconds or the like? If it's too large a device then why isn't it vehicle mounted? Just not something I'd have in my game as they're written. In the overall flow of EP, they feel like a speed bump. "Everything is pretty awesome and has a realism to it except the SOLAR SPACE WHALES that have shields that no one else can have and can magically communicate using visible light even when they're filtering out all the visible light of the sun..." Bad form overall.

Actually, suryas and other coronal morphs are quite resilient to energy and heat weaponry. Most energy weapons in the core book are likely going to average 1 point of damage on a surya, if it has no sort of armor for added protection. Moreover, the plasma atmosphere of the sun is going to virtually negate your laser weapon at a very short range, likely dispersing it within the already-scorching solar corona. You'd be lucky to successfully hit a target in there, assuming your gun could survive it and you could successfully aim at something. That said, anyone else can have the same shields that the suryas have (they have magnetospheres... the same thing our Earth has on a smaller level)... they just have to make do with the fact that their awesome magnetic shields are supplanted by solar waves, and the only way to maintain them is constant exposure to solar radiation. I'll admit, I can see why you'd find them implausible. Personally, I find a few other elements in the setting to be far more implausible (continuity checks, the lengths that the setting has gone to make biomorphs a rarity, TITAN technology, psi, Pandora gates, that we have somehow prevented everyone from trying to develop seed AI when microchip technology has come so vastly far that we can emulate the human brain in something the size of a credit card), but everyone is going to see something that bothers them. It's the nature of fictional settings.

KarmaInferno wrote:

Here's the thing. Even if it's not "permanently damaging", healing kinda requires you allow the eyes TIME to recover. That means removing or shielding them from the damage source. The question was, "why would Surya need protection from visible light?" Without it, they'd be no different than a normal human spending the rest of his life staring directly into the sun. The damage might be able to heal, but there's no opportunity to heal, as the damage never stops incoming.

The difference being that humans don't have nanotechnological healing assistance which makes it possible for them to heal constantly... whereas the surya does (all solar morphs require medichines to do constant maintenance on their bodies or else they simply would not be able to survive; it's a requirement of the coronal adaptation).

Okay, but that still doesn't explain how if they've got multi-gigawatt flashlights shining in their eyes all the time, how they can see the tiny faint lights from the guy next to the flashlight. Unless, of course, as I suggested they have some way of filtering the input so they CAN see their friends. Like using a set of wavelengths not so heavily output by the sun to communicate, and having solar filters that allow that narrow band of wavelengths in. This answers Rollo's question on how they communicate, without resorting to "It's Magic!" -karma

KarmaInferno wrote:

Found this online at the Lawrence Berkeley website: [img]http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/sb/Aug-2004/reflectance_wave... I see a couple of wavelength gaps there. -karma

A lot of the gaps are in the infared which if you have eyes tuned to the infared you can see. Thus the visual communication could be in that spectrum.

Duke Rollo wrote:

Good thing you focused on my request of "Just tell me how they can do this and I'll be happy" rather than trying to needlessly argue all the other stuff I put in there. I sense that our discourse has gone about as far as it can go and that you've reached the point of singularity where you're arguing with me just to argue with me. Thanks for your contributions and take care.

If you want people to respond to a simpler point of what you are saying then say it in simpler terms. When you write a four-paragraph statement, people are going to probably respond to a four-paragraph statement. Besides, I've already addressed the point... twice... in this thread....

Duke Rollo wrote:

Duke Rollo wrote:

I sense that our discourse has gone about as far as it can go and that you've reached the point of singularity where you're arguing with me just to argue with me. Thanks for your contributions and take care.

Decivre wrote:

If you want people to respond to a simpler point of what you are saying then say it in simpler terms. When you write a four-paragraph statement, people are going to probably respond to a four-paragraph statement. Besides, I've already addressed the point... twice... in this thread....

See what I mean?

Looks more like trolling to me.

Thunderwave wrote:

Duke Rollo wrote:

Duke Rollo wrote:

I sense that our discourse has gone about as far as it can go and that you've reached the point of singularity where you're arguing with me just to argue with me. Thanks for your contributions and take care.

Decivre wrote:

If you want people to respond to a simpler point of what you are saying then say it in simpler terms. When you write a four-paragraph statement, people are going to probably respond to a four-paragraph statement. Besides, I've already addressed the point... twice... in this thread....

See what I mean?

Jimmny Christmas, cut it the hell out you two. It's like a verbal game of "I'm not touching you!" in this thread.

Isn't it wonderful? Its like I am reliving my days from Shadowruns Dumpshock! :D

hi hi Vision is relative. The gamut for a Surya is liable to be very different from that of a human. Dark colors for a Surya are going to be blindingly bright to the human eye. In a similar manner, what is dark for us could be just bright and dandy for a nocturnal predator. Surya could very easily use the same mechanism that people use today to take photographs of the sun that are anything other than a pure white disk. [url=http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/coolxterior/Wallpapers/Aurora.gi... The sun's radiation alone wouldn't muck up any signals, but it's magnetic field certainly would add to the process. My guess is that they would probably want to use lasers for communications. I don't have the book, I don't know what claims they make about Surya and where they actually hang out in relation to the sun, so I can't say much about the plausibility of their material science. The photosphere is a relatively much nicer place than the corona, but it is still way too hot for material substances. (The corona typically ranges between 1 million and 3 million degrees kelvin, but can get as hot as 10 million K, much hotter than the photosphere's downright chilly 5.8 thousand K) For the sake of argument however, if they can make a morph that can withstand the temperatures, they should be able to make a projectile that can withstand them too. Heat and radiation resistance are relative too, everything reacts to excess heat, regardless of what it's standard equilibrium temperature is. Lasers aren't going to be stopped by magnetic fields. A single pulse of 100 Megajoules is roughly the equivalent of 25 kg of TNT. If your vessel is built to withstand the force of 100 MJ worth of suns rays, that doesn't mean it can withstand the combined 200 MJ worth of suns rays and laser weapon. In reality, plasma makes a very poor weapon anyway, but this is eclipse phase so who knows? While I concede your point, i feel obliged to point out that atmospheric re-entry would not be particularly difficult for a genetically engineered biomorph. Give it a flat, high drag turtle shell of moist tissue inside a carbon (bone) lattice and you could pull it off, not sure why you would do that though, since it seems like a one shot deal and you might as well use an external shell. I imagine a campaign with all Surya players might be for people who want space combat, and probably would involve titan relics, space aliens, or any other power that could hang out in the sun too.

TBRMInsanity wrote:

I'm not sure I would want to be in an all Surya campaign. "Ok guys, we are going to head north for the next three months as there is more Hydrogen to be harvested."

Agreed. They are story pieces, something amusing for a GM to throw in now and then. Not really useful for anything else. I decided to make myself a Venusian varient for the same purpose.

There is a strong connotation that the Suryas are actually neo-cetaceans. May years of isolated wandering across the surface of the sun can only be tolerated by a mind set that is use to it (something whales do currently).

GreyBrother wrote:

So... silly idea i have here, but how about a Mercurial in a White Surya who deliberatly attacks ships and non-surya morphs because [insert reason here]? And he is hunted by an Jovian Captain with a cyberleg. Randomness of the Universe, i'm awful.

Does Moby Dick really need a reason?