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Jupiter and interplanetary commerce

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root root's picture
Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
root@Jupiter and interplanetary commerce The Economics of Jupiter's gravity well How much does the gravity well of Jupiter matter? It's the largest non-solar gravity well in the heliosphere, and it's positioned in the middle of the system's planets. How close do you have to get to a gravity well to get a slingshot effect worth paying the Jovians for? How much does Jupiter effect the commerce between in- and out-system planets? I imagine that even in a post-scarcity economy, there are still resources that are limited. For instance, the quibits for quantum entangled communication are difficult to manufacture and are worth quite a bit. Even if quibits are the only physical matter that needs to be transported, the uses of quibits for encryption guarantees that shipping is still vital to civilization. How much power does the Junta have?
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Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
root wrote:
How much does the gravity well of Jupiter matter? It's the largest non-solar gravity well in the heliosphere, and it's positioned in the middle of the system's planets. How close do you have to get to a gravity well to get a slingshot effect worth paying the Jovians for?
According to this paper a typical, safe slingshot passes within 2 million km. But if you are willing to get really close you can get much bigger delta-v. This is a multiplicative effect, so if you are travelling fast you can get simply amazing velocities this way. However, getting velocity is not everything. You need to slow down too - not much point in overshooting your destination. So I would expect that Jupiter is a key waypoint for all traffic between the inner and outer system, but maybe not totally essential - it saves a lot of fuel, time and tricky navigation, but you could do without it. So it is a bit like the Panama canal: good for smaller ships with tighter velocity budgets, but the real superships can do without it.
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I imagine that even in a post-scarcity economy, there are still resources that are limited. For instance, the quibits for quantum entangled communication are difficult to manufacture and are worth quite a bit. Even if quibits are the only physical matter that needs to be transported, the uses of quibits for encryption guarantees that shipping is still vital to civilization.
Yup. And things like cryptographic one-time-pads are also something you want to ship. The biggest bulk transports are likely volatiles from the outer system for habitat construction and terraforming in the inner system. As my gaming group tend to exclaim: "The nitrogen must flow!"
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icekatze icekatze's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
hi hi At the risk of being contrary, I must disagree with my esteemed predecessor and say that Jupiter will not be useful at all for interstellar commerce. Space is very very big and Jupiter, while very large by planetary standards, is a very small and remote target for stellar vehicles. In almost all cases, getting your spacecraft into Jupiter's gravity well will expend more ∂V than you will get back out of the slingshot maneuver. Additionally, going out of your way will likely cause the trip to take more time. The Voyager mission was able to make use of what is called a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_Grand_Tour]Planetary Grand Tour[/url], an astronomical event that will not occur again until the year 2146 and Jupiter's synodic period in most planet to planet interactions is several years in length at least, so your window of opportunity is not very large either. Even the Bulk Carrier, the slowest interplanetary vessel in Eclipse Phase with it's 40 km/s ∂V budget, has more than enough propellant to make a direct hohmann transfer to any planet in the solar system (although the synodic periods for some of those flights are prohibitively long, so bulk transports would probably be only used in the inner system) Jupiter's orbital velocity is 13.07 km/s, this is the maximum velocity you can gain out of a gravity assist relative to the sun, but the surface gravity of Jupiter (surface gravity being defined as the place where atmospheric pressure equals that on Earth's surface) is only 24.5 m/s so that will give you some indication of how slow you need to be going to make use of that acceleration. Given the low thrust and high speed of Eclipse Phase ships, the Oberth Effect will not be very useful either since it requires a large ∂V expenditure at periapsis. For ships in Eclipse Phase like the standard transport with it's whopping 400 km/s ∂V budget, that is not a significant boost. Gravity assists are most certainly not multiplicative, the faster you are traveling, the less time you are going to be inside the planet's effective gravity well, and thus the less ∂V will be imparted on your vessel. Given the ∂V budgets of common space craft and the long synodic periods involved, most commerce will likely just fly straight to their destination.
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
As an aside, 2146 was one of the years people came up with as a potential date for Eclipse Phase, based off of the current positions of the planets. Which is nice.
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icekatze icekatze's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
hi hi I suppose commerce might benefit from a short term boost due to planetary alignment, but that was really more of an example. The windows for origins other than Earth are going to be different. On the extreme side of things, the synodic period between Neptune and Pluto is 499 years, 4 months and 9 days. Suffice to say, they're probably not going to be using gentle hohmann transfers.
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
@icekatze I would have to agree with you if Jupiter isn't significantly in line with where you are planning to end up. Maybe this is why Hypercorps like Comet Express doesn't use Jupiter to deliver packages (beyond the reason that the Jovian Military has strict orders to shoot down their ships on sight). There is definitely enough traffic through the Jovian System to support the Jovian economy though so it must be somewhat utilized.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
icekatze icekatze's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
hi hi Jupiter wouldn't be a bad place to stop and refuel if you didn't care about making the trip all on one tank. For bulk carriers coming out of the inner system, it might be preferable to make a Brachistochrone transfer to Jupiter, refuel, then make a Brachistochrone transfer to one of the other outer planets instead of trying for a direct Hohmann transfer. In fact, they might need to make several stops along the way. (I'm not really sure why bulk carriers have so much lower ∂V than the standard transport, but who am I to argue.)
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
Good points from icekatze. The refuelling issue is interesting: could fuel economy be the key issue? In the outer system getting reaction mass is cheap, while in the inner system it is pretty expensive (unless you use asteroid gravel as reaction mass). And given that the rocket equation requires an amount of reaction mass exponential in the payload mass, it would be nice if one could avoid having to pack all the mass needed for the entire trip from the start. So maybe what Jupiter really is about is throwing reaction mass to passing ships in addition to any delta-v one can scrounge from the passage? It is also worth remembering that the Jupiter system, despite the backwardness of the Junta, has a sizeable population and presumably industry and economic activity of its own that matters.
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nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
Arenamanoutanevanidad brings up the strongest argument, I think. Excepting when Jupiter, by great happenstance, is close to the course you were taking anyway, it's not a huge amount of use. However, Jupiter's gravity well also means it has a ton of STUFF there, including a lot of habitats and moons. Going planet by planet, I would guess that Jupiter probably has the highest population of any of them, just because of how much stuff is there waiting to be turned into a habitat (reducing the cost of living). And of course, the Junta, because of it's restrictive laws and cultural values, may have difficulty producing certain products, and will be a HUGE value to smugglers of all stripes. So I would expect they're a big, fat trading target.
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
"There is definitely enough traffic through the Jovian System to support the Jovian economy though so it must be somewhat utilized." Jovian Republic gets its revenue from the traffic, but in my view, they are rather closed economy, and probably try to rely on themselves in economic matters. Thus while they get revenue for operations and limited resources from outside due to traffic, most of their needs are acquired internally-which with the enourmous amounts of energy, mineral resources, and volatiles isn't difficult. Probably what they are in short supply are bio-scientists and various technology experts from certain areas that they don't research in active(but not those in engineering, military applications, physics, cybernetics which I think they have plenty of). I wouldn't be surprised if the revenue from traffic goes mostly to acquiring technological experts when needed, and spec-ops operation funds.
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And of course, the Junta, because of it's restrictive laws and cultural values, may have difficulty producing certain products
OTOH Jovians are probably on cutting edge in some areas-since they represente the remnants of special forces of North American continent along with government refugees. Most likely they do have people who were responsible for TITANS, they do have people who fought them(and in consequence people who studied TITANS and their machinery/viruses/bioforms). Eclipse Phase hints also that they have RAND personnel, which I would presume includes one of the best scientists Earth had pre-Fall(even if USA lacked behind China and EU). Maybe not cutting edge biomorphs, but cutting edge weaponry, propulsion systems, antimatter production, survellience tech.
Arenamontanus wrote:
Good points from icekatze. It is also worth remembering that the Jupiter system, despite the backwardness of the Junta, has a sizeable population and presumably industry and economic activity of its own that matters.
I would make Jovian Republic the major producer of antimatter in the system due to both possible high-tech engineering background of their population and access to energy sources in Jovian system.
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
One of a fallacies I have noticed when people talk about the Jovian system is that they make it out to be a Luddite enclave of nut jobs. If anything I can see these people producing some of the best tech around. They are paranoid, scared, and aggressive. War tends to breed innovation, and the Republic is basically focused around its militaristic might. Sure, they probably suck at producing really cool BioMorphs. But their robotics are going to be insane, with their Jammer units being some of the best in the System. To utilize the vast power stored in the Jovian system they probably are conducting some serious research into generation tech. And just because they say they don't touch TITAN tech doesn't mean that they don’t have black divisions hidden out in the black with enough guns pointed at it to blow up a small moon if it all goes wrong.
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Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
CodeBreaker wrote:
One of a fallacies I have noticed when people talk about the Jovian system is that they make it out to be a Luddite enclave of nut jobs. If anything I can see these people producing some of the best tech around. They are paranoid, scared, and aggressive. War tends to breed innovation, and the Republic is basically focused around its militaristic might.
Well the difference between much of Transhumanity and Jovians in my humoristic(in dark sense of way) opinion is why the rest sits in their purple gorilla morphs humping the AGI elven princes in their virtual castle, the Jovians sit in their boring tin cans in their boring flat and splicer bodies and think of ways to kill that purple abomination and crush that despicable TITAN-in-waiting. Ok it's exaggerated but you get the idea ;)
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
Demonseed Elite Demonseed Elite's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
I would make Jovian Republic the major producer of antimatter in the system due to both possible high-tech engineering background of their population and access to energy sources in Jovian system.
I've always liked this idea. It gives the Jovian Republic a solid industrial base that doesn't rely on the much less solid tariffs-that-they-have-trouble-enforcing mentioned in the core book. It also gives them a fuel source for their ships and every other political body the chills to think that the Jovian Republic is sitting on so much antimatter.
"It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." --The White Queen, [i]Through The Looking-Glass[/i] [img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_zGgz13n3uzE/TWWPdvGig-I/AAAAAAAACI8/y...
PlisQ PlisQ's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
Am I the only one possibly seeing parallels between the Jovian Republic and the Enclave from Fallout? Just as a side note.
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Jovian Republic gets its revenue from the traffic, but in my view, they are rather closed economy, and probably try to rely on themselves in economic matters.
Because of the huge cost of production, EVERYONE will be a closed economy if they have any say in the matter. However, if you outlaw certain technology, certain production methods or end products won't be available (or won't be available as cheap as it is elsewhere). I'm sure Jupiter also produces a lot. It seems more politically stable than most of the system and certainly bigger. All that means that trade is still a huge thing. If I'm a smuggler, I can probably make more shipping PETALs from Extropia to Jupiter than I can shipping water from Venus to Mercury.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Jupiter and interplanetary commerce
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
However, if you outlaw certain technology, certain production methods or end products won't be available (or won't be available as cheap as it is elsewhere).
There might be certain products that are possible to make by non-Jovian technology that are desirable and safe by Jovian standards. For example, bulk patterned diamondoid manufacturing requires nanofabbing that the JJ might worry about, but paying outsiders to do it both gets the useful material and outsources the potential risks. "Yes, we have to pay extra for those phased array hull sheets, and Security has to go over them with a fine comb to check that there are no nasty posthuman hitchikers or sabotage. But would *you* like to work anywhere near a fabber that could print out whatever an online attacker desires? Sure, if relations to those crazies out there sour, we would not get the hull sheets. But we could make do with our own or the ones we already have. Right now we get better performance per dollar by buying them internationally." -Samuel J. Briscoe, Amalthea Shipyards
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