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Titan Nanoswarm vs. EMP?

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Duke Rollo Duke Rollo's picture
Titan Nanoswarm vs. EMP?
You want to go back and reclaim Earth. The killer robots you can shoot or evade. The radioactive places you have suits for. But the nanoswarms? Those things will freakin kill you dead. (as an aside, I heard the best description of them EVER the other day: "a nanoswarm is like a cloud of mustard gas that's A) smarter than you, B) more industrious than you and C) doesn't like you.... only WAY more dangerous...") So I was wondering what you guys think would happen if a nanoswarm got hit with a potent electromagnetic pulse (EMP). I'm really not sure what happens to nanomachines when exposed to an EMP, but my thinking is that it's likely all or nothing... either it fries them or they're not affected. I know that some machines can be shielded from EMP's (and that a nanoswarm could probably MAKE something to shield itself with if it had warning)... But maybe EMP technology is a way for people to try to reclaim parts of Earth. Your thoughts?
-Duke Rollo
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Titan Nanoswarm vs. EMP?
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Titan Nanoswarm vs. EMP?
As King Shere noted, we have had a long discussion of it. I think the consensus view is that EMP works pretty well against human-made nanoswarms but TITAN swarms are tougher. My take on it would be that the first time you EMP something on Earth it usually works well, but then the local hives and swarmlets adapt and after a few minutes the EMP is nearly useless. The swarms are evolving (perhaps in competition and definitely through intelligent design) and optimizing, so as long as there are no EMPs they will tend to be vulnerable - but they can quickly recover past solutions if needed. The real problem might be that even EMP vulnerable nanoswarms will find ways of attacking from safety. They go into termite mode and dig tunnels instead. They convert a nearby mountain top to a phased array laser. They project subliminal sounds that drive the slightly edgy team member into full psychosis. They manufacture mustard gas.
Extropian
KarmaInferno KarmaInferno's picture
Re: Titan Nanoswarm vs. EMP?
Duke Rollo wrote:
(as an aside, I heard the best description of them EVER the other day: "a nanoswarm is like a cloud of mustard gas that's A) smarter than you, B) more industrious than you and C) doesn't like you.... only WAY more dangerous...")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw7tDZsRcK8& The rest of that movie was meh, but the nanoswarms were cool. -karma
sndwurks sndwurks's picture
Re: Titan Nanoswarm vs. EMP?
After reading the post about the EMP vs. Nanobot swarm, I am honestly in favor of the physics backed statements. EP is hard sci-fi, which means you should always apply the rules of known science before turning towards 'It Just Works' as an explanation. That's a weakness. Singularity is not a catch-all MacGuffin for super science. The real horror in EP lies in that it is supposed to be believable. Push the Singularity MacGuffin, and you start harming that believability. I would argue that yes, EMPs would be very effective against nanoswarms, but much less effective against the larger, and thusly shielded TITAN constructs. So, you have a weapon that can take out one of your enemies myriad, highly effective superweapons. Why didn't Earth bring it to bear? The answer lies more in sociology and panic responses than in technological edges. Transhumanity did not have the time nor the resources to effectively eliminate the nanoswarms with EMP weaponry. Due to their size and ability to replicate, you would have had to blanket large swaths of the planet with EMP blasts in order to take them out, and that still wouldn't remove all of them, or the TITANs ability to create more. Also, remember that nearly everyone's consciousness is at least partially based on technology that may or may not be shielded. Dropping an EMP blast on a nanoswarm in a population center, where you could potentially destroy any chance of survivors escaping through egocasting by disrupting their signals? Would cause people to hesitate. And all the TITANs needed to win was that hesitation. And by the time that people with the weapons would not hesitate, it had become a moot point, and the TITANs had destroyed any hope of a united, concentrated strike through the removal of communication. So, yes, you can use EMP blasts to disrupt nanoswarms. Why didn't transhumanity do it? Because they hesitated early on due to collateral damage, and did not have the organization later on to do it effectively. Why doesn't transhumanity do it in AF 10? Because the people with the guns who can do it? Don't care about Earth. But if I was gatecrashing, and doing an Earth run? I would so totally bring one down with me as a Get Out of Hell Free card.
Doomsayer
crizh crizh's picture
Re: Titan Nanoswarm vs. EMP?
Thing I don't understand is swarms evolving a defence. Why the hell would the TITANs not build EMP hardening into all their swarms if such a thing were possible? Star Trek did this nonsense too. You can only use your adaptive phasers against the Borg a few times before they adapt. But a season or two later the Borg have forgotten all about this trick and it works all over again? If I wanted a nano-swarm to overcome EMP attacks I would give it Regen. The EMP never quite gets them all and the few that survive cannibalize the remnants of their buddies to make up the numbers before you can set off your EMP again. You might be able to keep them at bay for a while but eventually you run out of power and.....
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
sndwurks sndwurks's picture
Re: Titan Nanoswarm vs. EMP?
The main issue to shielding your nanorobots is size. It takes material to shield them, and in order for them to do what they are described as doing, and be the size as they are described as being, it is impossible to either shield them with material (they are too small) or construct them of a material (too inefficient) where the EMP doesn't disrupt them. Now, you offer a good point. One option might be having, maybe two parts per million of the swarm which exist solely to survive an EMP blast, after which, they switch they become active, and begin cannibalizing and rebuilding the parts of the dead swarm. I think that might be feasible. Still, the EMP blast would probably destroy most of a swarm, and it would take it at least several minutes before it reached the necessary mass to be a threat again.
Doomsayer
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Titan Nanoswarm vs. EMP?
crizh wrote:
Why the hell would the TITANs not build EMP hardening into all their swarms if such a thing were possible?
Cost-benefit ratios. I can imagine several ways to run an EMP-safe swarm (use ultrasound or laser for communication rather than EM, for starters) and the TITANs can likely come up with a thousand more. But everything has tradeoffs: an ultrasound and rod-logic based swarm would have trouble with transmission speeds, the laser swarm might need certain elements for the transmitters, replacement antennas cost material and space. For any given situation there are a few designs which are best, and then they get used. In a no EMP environment where an EMP is unlikely to seriously destroy your plans you will not EMP shield everything. (Compare this to EP gear. Why not equip *everything* with all layerable armour layers, AI, extra firewalls and all the other add-ons in the Gear section? Because it costs too much, introduces too many bugs and makes everything bulky. The Gear section for TITANs is no doubt a million times longer, but they have the same problem in choosing what to put into a design.)
crizh wrote:
Star Trek did this nonsense too. You can only use your adaptive phasers against the Borg a few times before they adapt. But a season or two later the Borg have forgotten all about this trick and it works all over again?
As I would run it, the Borg and TITANs would have experienced that season as an eon - they are very smart entities doing a lot of whatever such entities do. So the first reaction would likely be "Ouch. What was the countermeasure against that again? Ah, now I remember..." It might work all over again for a minute or so. And next time, if you try the same trick, it works all over again for a second. TITAN devices are not beyond the laws of physics, at least not most of the junk of Earth. But just because they are not invulnerable doesn't mean they are not amazingly resilient. It is a bit like dealing with antibiotics resistant bacteria that can email immunities to each other. Or get strategic advice from a military think tank.
Extropian
randombugger randombugger's picture
Re: Titan Nanoswarm vs. EMP?
eclipsephase_errata_all_1.0 pg. 6
Quote:
p. 329, Nanoswarms and Microswarms In the fourth paragraph (the last paragraph before the Cleaners entry), add the following sentence right before the last sentence (“Swarms are not affected by vacuum.”): “EMP weapons (p. 340) are very effective against swarms, inflicting 2d10 + 5 damage and a -10 modifier to all tests due to their damaging effects on the swarm’s communication abilities until repaired.”
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Titan Nanoswarm vs. EMP?
So what is there to stop TITANs from building nanoswarms out of nonconductive Al2O3, running rod logic computers and communicating with ultrasound? (Sure, *those* nanites can be broken with the right ultrasound bang or resonance. Assuming you have the time to figure it out and build the equipment.)
Extropian
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Titan Nanoswarm vs. EMP?
crizh wrote:
Thing I don't understand is swarms evolving a defence. Why the hell would the TITANs not build EMP hardening into all their swarms if such a thing were possible? Star Trek did this nonsense too. You can only use your adaptive phasers against the Borg a few times before they adapt. But a season or two later the Borg have forgotten all about this trick and it works all over again? If I wanted a nano-swarm to overcome EMP attacks I would give it Regen. The EMP never quite gets them all and the few that survive cannibalize the remnants of their buddies to make up the numbers before you can set off your EMP again. You might be able to keep them at bay for a while but eventually you run out of power and.....
One problem with the immunity trick is that it might require massive reserves of power from the swarm. Doing so might be quite taxing, and something it cannot do on a constant basis. Another possibility is that it is a reaction with inertia... something that occurs in response to a stimulus, and atrophies when that stimulus is not present for an extended period of time. Otherwise, it becomes rather nonsensical that anything can harm these nanoswarms. With 10 years time and only a 2-hour need to build up an immunity to a given effect, they should literally be unstoppable and unaffectable.
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