The Jovian Republic didn't exist prior to the Fall. It essentially came to being when the various conservative groups of the Northern Americas and the militaristic dictatorships (known as Juntas) of the Southern Americas formed a mutual pact for the sake of survival. Their exodus from Earth took them to Jupiter's orbit, where they used force to take what habitats were already present, and instilled themselves as the present government of the region. Fun fact: Junta is pronounced "hunta", if anyone might not have known that. Found that out a couple months back talking to a Brazilian friend of mine about the game.

nezumi.hebereke wrote:

The population was at most 1% of what it is now. It was likely very low indeed. Really, the only thing Jupiter has going for it is relative proximity to Earth (compared to the other gas giants) and its high gravity making for good slingshots. Other than that, it's kinda a hell-hole. I imagine there were probably a few habitats there owned by larger organizations (the US, hypercorps, or maybe the Republican Party). I strongly doubt they had any sort of independent political status.

I disagree that the current population of the Jovian Republic is 1% of it's pre fall size. We only know that all of Transhumanity is 1% of it's pre-Fall size, not individual areas of Transhumanity. For all we know the Jovian Republic has always been somewhat anti-tech (at least anti-TITAN tech) and this saved them from the majority of the FALL (there is very little literature about the individual places that were hit by the TITANs outside of Earth (Mars getting the most cover). All we know is that after the Fall, the Jovian Military (or a group of bio-conservatives) took control of the Jovian habs and created the current Jovian Republic. My guess was that the take over was similar to a Latin American Military takeover (like Costa Rica). I don't imagine very many scum barges made it to the Jovian Republic (most went to Mars) and even fewer infomorphs made it (going on the general anti-infomorph stance of the Republic). My guess is that the size the Republic is comparable with its current size (+- a few thousand people due to war, immigration, and population increases (it is hinted at that the Jovian Republic has the highest birth rate of any community in EP (probably do to encouraging Flat or Splicer morphs))). Edit: Sorry didn't answer the original question. I think that the pre-Fall Jovian Republic had a similar status to a colony of the USA (Puerto Rico). I say this because the past government was weak enough to be taken over quickly by a military force, and that same force was able to maintain control till this day. The Jovian Republic has a strong sense of self identity which leads me to believe that it did have a certain level of self-autonomy from Earth (but not enough to fend off an attack from inside or out).

Decivre wrote:

This is likely because the "past government" likely just consisted of unorganized refugee colonies (Remember that the Jovian Republic formed fairly shortly after the Fall). It was less like a military conquest, and more like kicking out hobos inhabiting a local alley. The Jovian Republic was likely built upon the back of the United States' government system, as it was largely built from its remnants (at least its conservative remnants). It's sense of self-identity probably stems from this.

I always felt the Jovian Republic shares more in common with Latin America then the USA. Granted that there are some Southern US influences but not as much as the Latin influences. I think bio-conservatives (not to be mistaken for conservatives) come from a wide range of places. Off the top of my head most Catholic nations (ie most of Latin America), Spain, Italy, France (to a lesser degree), the USA, Canada, and Ireland would have significant contributions to the Jovian population. I think that also there may be a significant population of Russian, Polish, and other Slavic nations in the Jovian Republic (though not as many as the Latin community). I'm failing to see where it states that the Jovian Republic was created after the Fall. The Junta revolution did occur after the Fall but very little is said about what was there before. We just know that there was less TITAN activity in the Outer System then the Inner System, so most immigrants came from pre-Fall, or early evacuee groups.

TBRMInsanity wrote:

I always felt the Jovian Republic shares more in common with Latin America then the USA. Granted that there are some Southern US influences but not as much as the Latin influences. I think bio-conservatives (not to be mistaken for conservatives) come from a wide range of places. Off the top of my head most Catholic nations (ie most of Latin America), Spain, Italy, France (to a lesser degree), the USA, Canada, and Ireland would have significant contributions to the Jovian population. I think that also there may be a significant population of Russian, Polish, and other Slavic nations in the Jovian Republic (though not as many as the Latin community). I'm failing to see where it states that the Jovian Republic was created after the Fall. The Junta revolution did occur after the Fall but very little is said about what was there before. We just know that there was less TITAN activity in the Outer System then the Inner System, so most immigrants came from pre-Fall, or early evacuee groups.

It will be a combination of many cultures to be sure, but the U.S. references are very thick (read up on their habitat names or even the types of habitats they use... you'll notice the pattern). It also has a large amount of the South American military dictatorships interspersed within (it is, after all, known as a "Junta"). For the most part, it's just a militarily-active haven for all bioconservatives in the system. I'm not saying this isn't true, I'm just saying that the core governmental structure and basis for the nation is very heavily inspired by conservative American culture.

thats pretty dramatic. cant they just be people trying to get by? probably with a diversity of religions and cultures and politics, but with a common belief in unaugmented humanity?

Quincey Forder wrote:

Before the Fall, I think these bioconservative elites were warmongers lobbyist. Peace isn't good for economy. You can't sell weapons if there isn't fear and warth brewing. You can't build new structure without demolitioning old ones. What good are pharmaceutical cures without a dreadful plague to push the populace.

While I agree they were likely "warmonger lobbyists" (relatively speaking), I don't think it's for the reasons you state. They clearly have failed to transition to the new social order. They are clinging to 4GW (Generational Warfare)/5GW, when things have moved into 6GW or maybe even 7GW. By the books, they believe in a strong central government, and all the baggage that comes with it - clear social stratification, a conventional economy, likely a centralized, hierarchical military, a well-defined and orderly marketplace, and so on. The fact is, as the US is finding out right now, 5GW is a *LOT* cheaper than 4GW (and 6GW will likely be cheaper again). The only way that you can effectively maintain 4GW techniques in a 5GW world is by spending TONS of money on hardware (and in this case, by insulating yourself against outside influences). So what are they? They're like a baron building the walls on his castle higher and wider, and cracking the whip harder on his peasants, so he doesn't have to give up his barony to a world of gunpowder, merchants and capitalism outside. The Republic necessarily will collapse sooner or later. Unless they find a huge source of income, you just can't afford to fight that way, militarily or economically. And when they collapse, it will be very, very messy. I do still stand by their population being less than 1% of what it is now. We know in general the extraterrestrial population was 1%. Looking at all of the inhabited planets inside of Saturn, Jupiter really has the fewest reasons for people to move there. However, it's also the first stable alcove outside of the inner system, so I do imagine that when the motor oil hit the fan, a lot of very wealthy people aimed for Jupiter as the closest place to Earth/Mars that's still not too close.

Rhyx wrote:

The way I see it the memes of bioconcervativism and religion kinda go hand in hand because of the whole "playing god" aspect behind the creation of morphs and the immortality given by cortical stacks. Although admittedly I can see many bioconcervatives approaching death that decide to break down and get uploaded (funny how death changes a person's point of view sometimes!) What I see them is having this very heavy siege mentality, an us against them point of view that allows the rulers to keep a strong stranglehold on the population. But as a counterbalance to some of their Neo-Luddite tendencies in my game (and my view of Eclipse Phase) I'm giving them power armors and heavy weaponry to make up for their lack of technology. After all, if war is where all their brainpower goes they should be pretty good at it. I also figure they wouldn't frown on cybernetic enhancement too much as long as it's reversible. "Oh you have a fury morph? Excellent! I have an armored exo suit with twin linked gauss miniguns. We will see who leaves here alive. I'll put your cortical stack on my trophy necklace with the others..."

In addition to this, I've never had a problem interpreting the military-industrial complex in the Jovian Republic being fairly hypocritical when it comes to their bioconservative policy. Most of the material on the Jovian Republic to this point stresses that they heavily restrict and control advanced technologies, not that they don't use them at all. The average Jovian Republican citizen isn't going to have access to nanotech, heavily engineered morphs, and the like, but I don't have a problem with the military using them to preserve their own grip on power.

One thing that we can probably be certain of is that the Jovian Republic did not engineer the Fall. That would be completely against their interests. A bioconservative faction full of flats and infomorphs, which is totally against pods and synths, would want to keep a low corporeal population, if their only interest was their own wealth and prosperity. According to the NPC file, many soldiers who fought against the TITANs now reside in the Jovian Republic. Consequently, it is highly likely that the Republic had strong ties to those nations with lots of soldiers: USA, China, India, etc. Also, just because the Republic has a 20th-century economy does not mean that it is capitalist. Socialism, Communism, or a European hybrid economy, are also 20th-century economies. Otherwise, how could all those flats and poor splicers survive at all in a setting where every inch of habitat space requires long hours of working as a synth or pod in most other places? The Republic must surely be providing a lot of free services, as well as some sort of public barracks / shelter, to every single person who wants to join. This would be especially-appealing to poor flats who find themselves increasingly pushed out of the labor market by synths and worker pods - they can be slaves for the Jovians and have a much higher standard of living - i.e., a bed, a footlocker, a free handgun and some real food - than if they were to be slaves of corporations, who would force them to sleeve into synths and have no amenities whatsoever. Don't forget that many juntas of South America rose to power on the promise of helping achieve equality for all people, taking possession of the wealth of rich people while giving free services to everyone else. Overall, I would be highly disappointed of the Jovian Republic was written to have no redeeming qualities save for the fact that it is unlikely to be the source of another Fall. There should never be a designated villain of any sort - even the ETI has good intentions in most of its interpretations. EDIT - it just occurred to me that many of the policies of the Jovian Republic would be motivated by its large population of flats and poor splicers. Occasionally, a low-level official of the government might suggest that they permit synths or worker pods, followed by a firebombing of that official's office and a massive riot, not to mention threats to strike from all of the farmers and maintenance workers who want to keep their jobs.

Extrasolar Angel wrote:

Also remember that a lot of people would willingly forsake freedom for security.

I think this statement further backs your Latin-American Alliance theory. The USA and many nations in Latin-America have a strong "fear" based population that are more then willing to give up some of their freedoms and conveniences if it guarantees them a more secure lifestyle. Add in propaganda to further show these citizens the threats outside their safe cocoons, and you further endorse the fear culture. Now I'm not saying that a fear culture is good or bad, and I am generalizing quite a bit, but it is easy to see a Latin-American Alliance form around these ideas. I always pictures Jovian society to have a bit of Cuban society in it. At a young age the government monitors the youth and picks out traits that foretell what career an individual would be best suited for. Over the next 10-20 years of that person's life they are trained in that career path till they finally get a job in that career. To keep costs down, and to increase OJT (on job training), many of the educational centres are located in the same place as the jobs they are educating (example medical universities are also hospitals, apprentice shops are also construction sites, and of course boot camps are also military bases). Efficiency of limited resources is the key to success.

Rhyx wrote:

You know, I've been thinking about the Jovians today and something pops to mind. I would not even be surprised if when you dig deep enough in the structure of the Jovian Republic you wouldn't find a Promethean behind it all keeping the bioconcervative "pure human" flats around as a control group for the rest of the social experiments going on in the solar system. That would explain why they are such isolationists in such an isolated area. When the crap hit the fan back on earth a Promethean could have easily nudged and helped out the nascent Republic to find a place for itself and in turn it would ensure that the Promethean would have pure root stock in case they have to restart humanity from scratch in the event of a second fall.

Do you really believe the Prometheans to be so malicious? Treating us like experiments? I thought they were more like gifted children. They may want to create protected areas when the $%!% hits the fan (take care of their parents), but I doubt they would be "keeping pure stock" on hand.

TBRMInsanity wrote:

The main point of bioconservatism is that you don't develop tech that can lead to another Fall. So that being said, bio-engineering and cybertechnology are perfectly legal within the Jovian Republic. Heck so would stem cell research (again just as long as your doing a one for one part replacement and not part enhancement).

That depends on the brand of bioconservatism. Some might be okay with bio-engineering, but I'd imagine that some may only be okay with cybernetic replacements, seeing actual organ creation as stepping into "god's territory". Bioconservatism already exists today, and you can use it as a great guide to see how people would react in the future day and age. Some things might change, but a good portion of bioconservatism today will stay the same. Bioconservatism is about holding to conservative values in the field of biomodification. The Fall isn't the reason for bioconservatism, but bioconservatives likely use it as a justification for their beliefs. My image of the bioconservative military force for some reason looks very reminiscent of the marines in the movie rendition of Starship Troopers. Normal humans utilizing the best of armor, weapons, and team tactics. They know that they are genetically inferior to their enemies, but make up for it with fervor and the willingness to do whatever it takes to win. I expect to see them wearing power armor, working in large groups, and utilizing weapons that most other transhumans are afraid to (I can see a Jovian attack squad using tactical nukes and antimatter charges in urban combat, if they need to).

TBRMInsanity wrote:

I totally agree with you. Why play by your enemies rules when they have superior troops? All is fair in love and war. There is prototype armour for the US forces that I like to use as a base to the Jovian Military uniform ( http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_01/robocop0904_468x591.jpg ). I do imagine that if you can get away with what God gave you, then no replacements (bio or cyber) is best (hence power armour is a must), but if you can replace something that God gave you with an exact replacement (especially if it is grown from your own T-cells) that is ok, otherwise a prosthetic replacement (ie cyber) is the last resort. Jovians and bioconservatives alike would try to maintain the "more man then machine" approach though, minimizing any non-original replacement as much as possible.

That's a hard call. They might be okay with stem cell repairs, if only because by the time of Eclipse Phase it has been around long enough to be considered old genetech. However, bioconservatives today are very much against the use of stem cells, along with many other technologies. Some are even against organ transplant and blood transfusion, living under the assumption that if non-surgical means can't save them, it is "their time to die".

Decivre wrote:

The Jovian Republic didn't exist prior to the Fall. It essentially came to being when the various conservative groups of the Northern Americas and the militaristic dictatorships (known as Juntas) of the Southern Americas formed a mutual pact for the sake of survival. Their exodus from Earth took them to Jupiter's orbit, where they used force to take what habitats were already present, and instilled themselves as the present government of the region. Fun fact: Junta is pronounced "hunta", if anyone might not have known that. Found that out a couple months back talking to a Brazilian friend of mine about the gamDe.

So, the us president and his crew went down to SA (a lot of scifi books have large spaceports in SA because it being near the equator), got in touch with an SA general to secure the space port if he wanted out?

Jovian society is not anarchist enough to want to move out past Saturn, but they are defiantly not "hypercorp" material either. It makes sense that they settled just outside the inner system.

Extrasolar Angel wrote:

Decivre wrote:

They weren't necessarily the governing forces of former nations: we haven't been told what the political climate of the time was really like, and whether the sitting president at the time was conservative.

The setting does somewhat imply that USA was more authoritarian then today. It started research into TITAN's to reduce its loss of status to other players on the world stage, I believe Sunward also mentions political group such as Pan-americans as well as shooting of Brazilian refugees by "North American" forces. So I would assume that NAFTA turned into more associated group after rise of India, Brazil and China, while at the same time USA turned into more Hispanic country with close ties to other Spanish speaking american nations. Possibly hoping to unite American continents into a power bloc rivaling Asia. Thus would also explain the hostility to Brazil-a more Chinese allied country with Portugese speaking population. This also explains nicely the Sol system situation-India colonised Moon, China Mars, EU researched the Saturn-Titan system, while Pan-American alliance tried to gain the vast mineral and energy resources of Jupiter. Note that Sunward mentions that hypercorps massacred a lot of political elites fleeing Earth. So again this would fit nicely the idea of Junta being formed out of intelligence agents whose identity was largely hidden, and military leaders who were too well protected on navy ships. Of course with a mix of escaped political leaders and some national alligned business tycoons. But I can see actually some intelligence agencies allowing political leaders to be killed in silent coup.

This would also explain why the Jovians tend to have the best spy network of all the factions in EP (pretty good for a group that relies on flats and splicers only).