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Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from the very beasts of the fields...

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Psyfer Psyfer's picture
Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from the very beasts of the fields...
An idea occured to me reading a prior thread. A lot has bee written about the in-game subject of Uplift Rights, which makes a lot of sense. However, an interesting thought occured to me: What about Uplift religion? It's not unlikely for some of the groups involved in creating Uplifts to give them reasons to believe that the Uplifts owe Humanity for the gift of sentience. Religion is a brillient control mechenism (Just ask Marx, Bin Ladin and the Roman Catholic Church), and it's that some unscrupulous souls pre-fall may have programmed their charges with such beliefs, ala Isle of Dr. Moreau. A similar tack could have been taken with AIs (toaster in heaven jokes aside). Now, given such was done, the religion has some unique factors that human religions didn't (well, as far as we're aware at least). For starters, the Uplift's 'god' is tangible, a real individual that they can converse with as opposed to an ineffible ideal. Secondly, it's an individual that they can potentially reach or exceed the capabilities of (although they may not be aware of such). Another factor that differentiates it from many of the more modern monotheistic religions is that their creator is inherently imperfect (Polytheistic gods however, are often flawed in all manner of fun ways, just look at the Greek ones for starters). All this can have some very fundimental effects on how such a religion could develop. It would effect the downfall of such religions as well, as I'm sure suddenly discovering that your 'God' simply is a shmuck who wanted a legion of fanatical apemen (or birdmen/octomen, as you prefer) under his sway is rarely going to go down well. Also, how would other Uplifts see followers of such a cult? Pity? Scorn? Traitors against their species? How would non-uplifts see them/interact with them? I could imagine Scum and other anarchic souls taking animal liberation to new hieghts, Argonauts funding rehabilitation clinics for them, and so on (which also begs the question, should the 'deluded' Uplift be rehabilitated against their will, but the ethics involved is a thread topic all of it's own). As a whole, I could see such groups being fringe-dwellers for the most part. The more Anarchic factions would probably find them straight-laced and conservative (in a warped fashion) and the Corps would probably use and abuse them without pity. Ironically, I'd see it as one of the few ways that an Uplift could fit in within Jovian society (Damn critters know their place). In any case, I think I've found yet another interesting dynamic in a setting full of interesting dynamics.
Just another Ghost in the Machine...
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
Even without any religious tweak simple gratitude would potentially be strong. I can imagine culturally American uplifts having thanksgiving dinner and mention the humans who gave them sentience to actually enjoy a meal as more than nutrients. In fact, religion might be an unavoidable side effect of uplifting. One popular theory among researchers into the cognitive psychology of religion is that we become religious because of over-active agency detectors. As social creatures we are very good at figuring out that actions were carried out by other actors, and spend much effort in figuring out what intentions the actors have. As a side effect we also tend to "detect" actors when there are none: lightening strikes, and we immediately think "who was angry with whom?" - then filling in some more or less plausible explanation. Uplifts could get this kind of agent detection system as a side effect of getting their brains enhanced. This might be particularly true for non-social creatures like octopi, who actually do need to be tweaked to fit into transhuman society. It might be that there is a surprising range of agency detection, ranging from loner octopi who simply can't "get" religion at all to gregarious, almost primate like octopi who tend to see spirits everywhere (I get this vision of a Japanese cephalopod who is a devout shintoist, making elegant origami sacrifices at a little underwater altar to the kamis of nanotechnology). It could also be that one group doing the uplifting, let's say Pan Corporation, did use a lot of religious tricks to make their uplifts more compliant. Other's didn't, and now the descendants/followers of Pan are having disagreements with the others. Maybe it could even be an interesting Trait: built-in religiosity, the character will experience religious feelings of reverence when encountering certain symbols, environments or authorities.
Extropian
Psyfer Psyfer's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
Mechanically, the behaviour modification flaw covers most of the religious aspects nicely (eg. a prohabition against harming humans, for example, could easily be 'worded' within the faith as a divine edict). One of the character ideas that I had whilst writing the first entry in the thread was a Gorilla Uplift who had be programmed to act as a security worker, the programming all in the form of various religious prohabitions akin to Azimov's 3 Laws of Robotics. Uplifts adopting existing religions is also an interesting idea. How does an Octopus accept the word of Christ for example? Did Jesus die for the Octomorph's sins as well as mans? Another occurance could be the emergance of 'pidgin' faiths akin to the amalgamation of Yuroba (sp?) and Catholic beliefs into Houdoun and similar religions in the Carribean, or radical re-interpritations to accomodate sentient non-humans. And how do the humans deal with basterdised variations of their own religions?
Just another Ghost in the Machine...
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
Human religions tend to come from how humans interact with their environment, and the culture in which that religion came from. I would imagine that Uplift religions would follow similar paths. For example I see neo-hominids developing a polytheistic religion with a separate "God" for each clan (a divine being that directs that clan's destiny). The point of a neo-hominid religion would be to galvanize the clan under a single clan and culture (like apes do now days in the wild). With neo-avians, I would imagine something similar to Tibetan Buddhism, a waste not, want not culture. Neo-Octopuses, I imagine would be the most atheist of the uplifts. Octopuses are naturally solitary creatures, and would value skill over religion and fate. Of all the human religions, I see uplifts following either Hinduism or Buddhism the most. I don't see uplifts believing in Christianity, Islam, or Judaism because all of those religions state that humans were given dominion over the Earth and its creatures (including the uplifts themselves). Why would you join a religion in which you are effectively seen as a slave to the rest of the people in the religion. That spits in the face of uplift rights. On a fun side, I would live to see someone play a Neo-Octopus that was a follower of Poseidon and even believed that he/she was the avatar/child of Poseidon.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
TBRMInsanity wrote:
On a fun side, I would live to see someone play a Neo-Octopus that was a follower of Poseidon and even believed that he/she was the avatar/child of Poseidon.
With the right psychosurgery, you could get the memories of being the child of Poseidon.
Extropian
Psyfer Psyfer's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
Oh, the fun that could be had there....
Just another Ghost in the Machine...
Saerain Saerain's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
I wouldn't be so convinced that theism would or could occur in uplifts at all. By being uplifted so drastically, they skip most, if not all of the selection forces we've ever been subjected to that have ever been supported as an evolutionary explanation of god memes and neurological susceptibility to them. We were primed to anthropomorphize the universe and see agency where there is none primarily, if not entirely, through selection forces in the Paleolithic. I'd think it would be reasonable to assume that our god memes would seem to uplifts as a schizophrenic's wall scribblings seem to most of us—simply incompatible—and that the probability of them developing their own would be very low precisely because they'd probably lack things like hyperactive perception of agency or anything, genetic or memetic, that very early, coin-flipping (pseudo)science may have encouraged—i.e. burning virgins to see which way the smoke blows, and so on. Without having that first, I can't see how you could have organized religion later. Unless the genetic designers somehow figured it would be a good idea, I guess.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
A large portion of uplift psychology is likely going to be based on human psychology. As such, it's very possible that they will have the necessary mental components for logical abstraction and religious thought... some more than others (uplift primates may have just as much, if not more, compunction to form religious beliefs than humans)
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
Saerain wrote:
I wouldn't be so convinced that theism would or could occur in uplifts at all. By being uplifted so drastically, they skip most, if not all of the selection forces we've ever been subjected to that have ever been supported as an evolutionary explanation of god memes and neurological susceptibility to them. We were primed to anthropomorphize the universe and see agency where there is none primarily, if not entirely, through selection forces in the Paleolithic. I'd think it would be reasonable to assume that our god memes would seem to uplifts as a schizophrenic's wall scribblings seem to most of us—simply incompatible—and that the probability of them developing their own would be very low precisely because they'd probably lack things like hyperactive perception of agency or anything, genetic or memetic, that very early, coin-flipping (pseudo)science may have encouraged—i.e. burning virgins to see which way the smoke blows, and so on. Without having that first, I can't see how you could have organized religion later. Unless the genetic designers somehow figured it would be a good idea, I guess.
You make it sound that religion is nothing more then a coping mechanism created by society to answer the unexplained, and that atheism is a logical and enviable conclusion (if I'm wrong please correct me). I heartedly disagree with this. I think religion will always be a part of any sentient lifeform (including AGIs) because religious philosophy helps lay out the social norms and ethics that helps boost society. I agree that Uplifts (with maybe the exception of neo-hominids) would most likely not follow human religion, but I hardly think that they would be atheists just because they became sentient.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
There's always the possibility, as crazy as it may sound, that religion is right :P I am curious what sort of 'religion' an AGI would come up with. I have a suspicion it would come out as more of a philosophy. Only the really limited AGIs would be afraid of Silicon Hell.
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
Now, don't give me ideas about Beelzebot and Robot Hell, i watched too much Futurama. :P But yes, i think AGI religion would seem more philosophy based teachings. But then, AGIs are developed as "human" as possible. Let's start with this: How do you actually view their lifecycle and the differences to "real" children?
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
I can see an AGI religion being more like Hinduism. Code reuse means that part of yourself may live on after your long gone, and in some way you will live on in another program in the future. Hopefully this future self will be more powerful and better suited to survive, if not a new program will be created and your code will hopefully be reused again. The ultimate goal would be have some of your code in the perfect future AGI that does not, and/or can not be improved upon "Robot Nirvana".
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
Wow, great thoughts here... What is the lifecycle of an AGI? In pieces! Babies are made and grown in parallel, while computer programs are made in chunks. With such a ridiculously complex set of code, some of those chunks likely have 'memory'. I don't suppose AGIs have unconscious functions like humans do, so they probably remember every bit of data and every lost pointer from those modules that retain their memory when upgraded or wrapped in. This is interesting contrasted with humans, who don't develop memory until *after* self-awareness. In that regard, yeah, something like Hinduism or Taoism does seem reasonable. The idea of an independent soul is harder to swallow when you know that you share 5% of your code (and memories) with AGI-B, 20% with AGI-C and so on, and you fully expect that up to 80% of your code and memories will be made into a new AGI at some point or another. I do imagine also that some degree of cyber-philosophy would be awfully handy for any intelligence cobbled together by creatures who can't even figure out their own psyches. AGIs are now looking for a purpose to operate (even if one is already programmed in, they are smart enough to question it now). That is precisely what philosophy strives to address. I imagine though their philosophy is less like human philosophy, which takes things for granted we shouldn't, misses logical jumps, and comes to only a single final conclusion. Instead, they likely operate on a set of suppositions, with their corresponding likelihood of being true. So perhaps there is a 40% of God existing, a 30% of some other guiding force (like Tao) existing, and a 30% chance of no higher power. Given this, the AGI alters its behaviors so it dedicates 40% of its efforts towards behaving in a 'godly' fashion, 30% in a 'taoist' fashion, and 30% in an 'atheist' fashion. In a month, it goes to a Hindu temple twice, a Taoist temple once, and watches Sunday-morning cartoons once :P
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
So... an AGI takes a Boolean approach to religion? "Which religion is right for me? Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism? The correct answer is obviously: Yes." I like it.
Psyfer Psyfer's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
Wow, leave a thread alone in a dark forum and see what happons :P I'd like to say that I never really considered how a religion could evolve naturally in uplifts (or AGIs for that matter), only how it could be used as a control mechenism by those creating them. Indipendant development of sprituality could lead to all sorts of interesting developments, although I would see such things as being very much in their infancy at the current timeline due to the relitive 'youth' of uplifts and AGIs as a race (although an AGI infomorph in a high speed VR could certainly speed things up). I'm also wondering how extant religions (Christianity, Hinduism, Islam and Buddism are all stated to have survived the fall) would intigrate uplifts/AGIs... Are they slaves, abominations superiors or equals?
Just another Ghost in the Machine...
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
Wouldn't the Uplifted groups worship a more general concept tied to their animal origins? I heard in a documentary that all animals have a sort of mental connection to nature that man lost when he stopped adapting to his environement and started adapting his environment to himself. A concept like Gaia, before the Fall, or the Universe as a whole. Gaia would explain why lots of reclaimers are uplifted. They feel the loss of their homeworld more keenly than the rest of Transhumanity. Heck I'm sure some (not to say most) of the Mercurials must be blaming the (trans)humans for the loss of Earth, maybe even before the Fall occured. To quote Jake Sully, "They killed their Mother" Now, on the AGI angle. They have a keen sense of paterns, correct? so their 'agents sense' must be equally developped. More so than even the humans'. therefore I think their system of belief must go about free will, determinism and fate. That gives me an idea for an AGI character in the like of the Oracle in Matrix. A being living in some Simulspace of the Mesh in the Trojans, whose advices are sought from all sides except the Jovian junta, and then again, they might rationalize that the 'Oracle' must be human, no way a machine, a program would be that gentle and kind hearted. Now, come to think of it, could that Oracle-like AGI be actually one of the Prometheans seed AI? a TITAN that rejected her original purpose precisely because she gained that set of views about fate and free will? (if you go even further SHE might be the reasons why the other TITANs left. A promess made. (cfr. the final scene in Matrix Revolution)
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nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
Psyfer wrote:
I'm also wondering how extant religions (Christianity, Hinduism, Islam and Buddism are all stated to have survived the fall) would intigrate uplifts/AGIs... Are they slaves, abominations superiors or equals?
Actually, the book specifically says Christianity really lost headway with the fall, which is understandble. Christianity is all about redemption of the human soul. However, with forking, resleeving and so on, the concept of 'soul' quickly becomes outdated and goofy (or becomes absolutely terrifying!) I would assume that, in regards to Christianity: 1) There's one or more new branches of Christianity, perhaps accepting that we are during or following the Second Coming, and now we're expecting something else, or just a non-theological philosophy, akin to Shintoism, kept alive by tradition. 2) Christianity is doing okay in the Junta (since they've rejected resleeving/forking technology), and that feeds their xenophobic mentality. 3) The idea of soul-based beliefs really hold little interest to an AGI, who remembers himself being assembled and different segments of unconscious and semi-conscious pieces, and so the idea of a soul doesn't seem compatible. Buddhism is based around the idea of overcoming suffering, so that too would seem to have limited value to an AGI, who presumably cannot suffer (or at least can turn it off). I'm sure there are special cases, though. Hinduism is based around the idea of breaking from the reincarnation cycle (which I assume has been dropped, all things considered), but has a concept of the soul very compatible with resleeving and such. Because Hinduism accepts itself as very metaphorical, as religions go, and seems the best model for what we see going on, this would seem a logical choice for an AGI, especially one seeking self-improvement through graduating to the next cosmic level, and who is guided by an overwhelming sense of dharma (duty - i.e., encoded behaviors). Taoism is aligning oneself with the way of nature in order to achieve peace and efficiency. Again, sounds attractive to a logical mindset, and it does invite a deep level of thought for our thinking machines. Islam discusses the idea of overcoming our pride by abasing ourselves to God. Not really a huge draw to an AGI. If we enter another golden age of Islam, it might be attractive just because the last one did so much to encourage thought and art, but that's an attraction to the culture, not the religion. But here I am discussing 'preferences' when I just said an AGI might operate on the concept of 'likelihood of being correct'.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
Remember folks, just because they aren't human doesn't mean that they are a hat race. AGI and uplifts are theoretically running the gamut in personalities. For that matter, uplift instincts are no more an absolute for them than they are for us, nor is AGI logic necessarily going to override their emotions. Furthermore, it is very likely that AGI will have automatic algorthms and processes over which they will have little direct control... and it may very well express itself as a sort of "instinctive drive". A hypercorp-made AGI may have an "instinctive compunction" against hurting employees built into it. AGI built explicitly to imitate humans will likely have other instinctive compunctions beyond what you might expect out of AGI... and there may be other AGI designed to experiment with new mindsets that may have instincts that you couldn't even think of.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
Something that sprang into my mind: Ancestor worship. Seems like a good catch for "logical" AGIs since they can know that their code came from that and that AI, which did this and this things and i want to outdo them.
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
And for the uplifts to worship the first animal of their species to have been uplifted like a chimpanzee called Ceasar, for the neo-hominid. yes, I know, I ripped it off from Burton's Planet of the Apes. Btw, there is a movie/series (not sure which) called Rise of the Apes that could provide good ideas for uplifts. and for the Octopuskind... the Great Seer Paulo! Patron of the Octopi and soccer bidding bookmakers!
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Psyfer Psyfer's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
We thought he was predicting the world cup winners, but in actual fact, he was predicting the fall of man and the rise of the cephelopod...
Just another Ghost in the Machine...
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Praise those who gave us free will, who rose us up from ...
Quincey Forder wrote:
And for the uplifts to worship the first animal of their species to have been uplifted like a chimpanzee called Ceasar, for the neo-hominid. yes, I know, I ripped it off from Burton's Planet of the Apes. Btw, there is a movie/series (not sure which) called Rise of the Apes that could provide good ideas for uplifts. and for the Octopuskind... the Great Seer Paulo! Patron of the Octopi and soccer bidding bookmakers!
there is a powerful Octopi Mafia. It makes sense that their "God" would be the perfect selector of random chance.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.