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Morph weirdness

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Sun, 2010-07-04 08:31
#1
crizh crizh's picture
Morph weirdness
So I'm tweaking my Psychosurgeon character for the Aptitude Maximum erratum and that has thrown up some weird chargen issues. So I've thrown out my Menton and gone with Remade. I wanted a Wil of 40 and the original build actually had an Ego Wil of 40 before Morph mods. So I kicked that down to 35 which freed up more than enough points for the new Morph. Now I have some spare points so I figure why not buy another Morph for Psychosurgery. Thing is, Psychosurgery is very difficult (or impossible) to perform on someone with a Wil of 40 so I've been looking for a way around the problem. Turns out on careful reading of the Psychosurgery rules that while PS is usually performed on digital mind-states there is no reason that it can't be performed on sleeved Egos. The Ego is running in a Morph and experiencing a surgical simul-space, possibly in an accelerated time frame, but the software, so to speak, is still running in the Morph's 'hardware'. So I can pick up a Case for 5 CP and slap my Ego into that when I want to tweak my own code. With a Aptitude Maximum of 20 I'm much more likely to succeed against Wil x 3. Just for good measure I'm looking to see if there are any other ways that I can penalize my Ego to further improve my chances of altering it with Psychosurgery and I stumble across Addiction. I can take it as a Morph Trait, perhaps picking up a knackered old Case that has a Cyberbrain so corrupted by constant exposure to some sort of exotic XP feed that it's potentials are completely out of whack when the feed is turned off, at level 3 and give my Ego a -30 to all actions whenever it's crammed into the old Clank. At which point I realize that there is no particular reason, other than the trusty thrown rulebook, not to buy 2 Morphs and dump all 25 points of Negative Morph Traits onto one you have no intention of ever using except in emergencies. It also occurs to me that you could get around the restriction on buying Morphs with cash in Chargen, to some extent, by purchasing blueprints instead. Blueprints for a Case cost the same number of CP's as the end product and let you 'print out' as many as your resources will allow. Not sure what I'd do with an army of Alpha Forks in Cases but I'm sure it's something I probably shouldn't be allowed to start doing right out of chargen.... There was something else too, um, er... Ooh, Uncanny Valley, yes. Can you buy that off? Get Body Sculpting to look sufficiently less human that you aren't a social pariah? What about purely Mesh interactions? Can you pay extra for a version of the Morph that doesn't suffer from Negative Traits it normally has by default? Two Ultimates who both normally wear Remade Morphs are as creeped out by each other as Bioconservative Flats are. Worse if one of the Ultimates sends an Infomorph Fork to deal with his buddy he's likely to get a better deal despite his friend knowing exactly who he is dealing with and potentially interacting with a lifelike image in the Mesh. Probably needs some sort of tweak I think. Of to bed, I'm wittering rubbish now....
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Mon, 2010-07-05 02:49
Janusfaced Janusfaced's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
About self-psychosurgery I think you can't do on yourself, without forking. And while I agree you can operate on your alpha-fork, the psychosurgery and operating time (many take one week) will make a subject into a differnt person with you. So I think self-psychosurgery-to-modify-yourself don't make sense. About a scapegoat morph I agree you are correct. And if you don't want to have any low quality morph, you can destroy it -- you buy 25 CP (negative morph trait max) with 0 CP (Flats morph) effectively. How to disable this exploit? About an army of Alpha Forks in Cases Yes, a Cases morph costs 5 CP and a Cases blueprint costs 5000 Credits (5 CP), so you can create an army of Cases. But Alpha Forks are illegal in many jurisdiction(p. 273) and free-willed as the originating ego. So I feel alpha-army is unlikely. That said, beta or delta forks are more legal and obedient. About Uncanny Valley Yes, I think you can buy off it. But I am fine two Remade morphs fell uncanny each other. I think "not-uncanny" appearance is considered as a decadent luxury among Ultimates. After all, they are ascetic.
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Mon, 2010-07-05 16:35
crizh crizh's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
Janusfaced wrote:
About self-psychosurgery I think you can't do on yourself, without forking. And while I agree you can operate on your alpha-fork, the psychosurgery and operating time (many take one week) will make a subject into a differnt person with you. So I think self-psychosurgery-to-modify-yourself don't make sense.
While to some extent I agree that psychosurgery might be something that is potentially more difficult to perform on yourself I wouldn't rule it that way for a number of reasons. Using pyschosurgery to merge two forks is explicitly something that can be done by one of the Egos in question so it's not without precedent in the system. Additionally, from a fluff perspective, it is conceivable that performing psychosurgery on yourself is actually easier than performing it on a separate Ego. When making changes to your own Ego you have direct first hand experience of the results you are achieving. A bit like a neuro-surgeon who operates on a conscious patient to gain live feedback. I think I would also make more extensive rules regarding Forking and Merging. If I Fork a personality, insert a Block into one and then re-Merge them, does the combined Ego also have the Block? What about Rez Points? Skills? You could Fork after an award of RP's and spend them improving several different skills in an accelerated simulspace. Three hours to gain two points each to as many skills as you want, ten minutes to merge the Forks and then another two minutes to erase the Stress. Psychosurgery and Ego Forking/Merging are some of the most fascinating elements of a Transhuman setting and I think they deserve a rules expansion.
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Tue, 2010-07-06 06:05
Janusfaced Janusfaced's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
crizh wrote:
While to some extent I agree that psychosurgery might be something that is potentially more difficult to perform on yourself I wouldn't rule it that way for a number of reasons. Using pyschosurgery to merge two forks is explicitly something that can be done by one of the Egos in question so it's not without precedent in the system. Additionally, from a fluff perspective, it is conceivable that performing psychosurgery on yourself is actually easier than performing it on a separate Ego. When making changes to your own Ego you have direct first hand experience of the results you are achieving. A bit like a neuro-surgeon who operates on a conscious patient to gain live feedback.
I have figured a pyschosurgery is like a laparotomy surgery. I mean, a subject must be anesthetized but a surgeon can't be anesthetized, so self-surgery is impossible. That said, you are right -- there is a similar precedent, so self-pyschosurgery might be possible.
crizh wrote:
I think I would also make more extensive rules regarding Forking and Merging. If I Fork a personality, insert a Block into one and then re-Merge them, does the combined Ego also have the Block? What about Rez Points? Skills? You could Fork after an award of RP's and spend them improving several different skills in an accelerated simulspace. Three hours to gain two points each to as many skills as you want, ten minutes to merge the Forks and then another two minutes to erase the Stress.
I am figuring that "Three hours" is an objective time when the fork spend 1 week in the fastest accelerated simulspace (60 subjective minutes = 1 objective minute, 1 subjective week = 2.8 objective hours). But more time you and the fork have aparted, more difficult merging. After all, the fork "experienced" 1 week you didn't. Even if the result is "Memories intact", it isn't "Seamless ego with memories intact from both". So there is no guarantee the united ego will have fork's skill.
crizh wrote:
Psychosurgery and Ego Forking/Merging are some of the most fascinating elements of a Transhuman setting and I think they deserve a rules expansion.
I do agree.
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Your average, everyday, normal, plain and dull transhuman Janusfaced's outpost(writtern in Japanese) http://janusfacedsoutpost.blog.fc2.com/
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Tue, 2010-07-06 07:55
crizh crizh's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
Janusfaced wrote:
I have figured a pyschosurgery is like a laparotomy surgery. I mean, a subject must be anesthetized but a surgeon can't be anesthetized, so self-surgery is impossible. That said, you are right -- there is a similar precedent, so self-pyschosurgery might be possible.
Thing is, psychosurgery must be performed on a conscious mind. You can't do it on a digital mind-state in cold storage, you can certainly plan a procedure that way but the Ego has to be 'running' when you alter it. I was trying to think of a good example of why it might be easier to perform on oneself but the only thing that springs to mind is 'auto-erotic stimulation' and that's a subject best avoided I think.
Janusfaced wrote:
I am figuring that "Three hours" is an objective time when the fork spend 1 week in the fastest accelerated simulspace (60 subjective minutes = 1 objective minute, 1 subjective week = 2.8 objective hours). But more time you and the fork have aparted, more difficult merging. After all, the fork "experienced" 1 week you didn't. Even if the result is "Memories intact", it isn't "Seamless ego with memories intact from both". So there is no guarantee the united ego will have fork's skill.
Those definitions definitely need to be expanded upon. What's the difference between 'seamless ego' and 'solid bond'? Is the difference between 'solid bond' and 'no memory loss' simply that the Ego suffers a variable amount of Stress?
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Thu, 2010-07-08 06:20
Janusfaced Janusfaced's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
crizh wrote:
Those definitions definitely need to be expanded upon. What's the difference between 'seamless ego' and 'solid bond'? Is the difference between 'solid bond' and 'no memory loss' simply that the Ego suffers a variable amount of Stress?
Agreed. I have some interpretation, but it has some flaw. "Seamless ego with memories intact from both": you successfully integrated both egos. And you have memories of both. "Solid bond, memories intact": you successfully discard the either ego (you can select which) so don't suffer any merging ill-effects (Stress). And you have memory of the other. "Memories intact, X SV": you discard the either ego but suffer some merging ill-effects. And you have memory of the other. Flaw: in my interpretations, there is no profit to merge over-1-hour-apart egos. I mean, even with Succesful test, memory of the either ego will be lost. If you don't mind it, simply deleting the fork is easier and safer.
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Your average, everyday, normal, plain and dull transhuman Janusfaced's outpost(writtern in Japanese) http://janusfacedsoutpost.blog.fc2.com/
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Thu, 2010-07-08 16:55
Saerain Saerain's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
It does bother me that Uncanny Valley affects everyone. It just isn't the case in reality. It's not a trait that a thing exhibits, but a reaction the observer has. I prefer to think of it as a common mental disorder.
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Thu, 2010-07-08 23:45
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
Saerain wrote:
It does bother me that Uncanny Valley affects everyone. It just isn't the case in reality. It's not a trait that a thing exhibits, but a reaction the observer has. I prefer to think of it as a common mental disorder.
I've actually replaced it with the Social Stigma (Uncanny Valley) trait. Social stigmas are selective, in that not everyone is going to hold the prejudice against you. Uncanny Valley, as the rules present them, is not. I think converting it into a social stigma fits the concept better, plus it helps organize the traits, merging ones with similar concepts together. Either that or simply assuming that it doesn't affect everyone. That also works :P.
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Fri, 2010-07-09 09:43
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
You have a body like a poorly made fashion dummy. Your eyes don't close, your jaw is on crooked, and your head is stuck permanently facing slightly to the right. However, you do look basically human. Among AGIs and living entities not raised by humans, this isn't a real issue - they haven't idented on the human form. To them, it's not especially artistic or natural. It just is. However, 99% of the population has been raised by humans, and do have biological mental processes, such as identifying with a common, natural form. We see this form as normal, healthy, perhaps even beautiful. The point of the uncanny valley flaw is that, for these 99% of the population who have been raised like this, seeing your poorly made body will cause a mental disconnect, resulting from their basic biological programming. It's not a 'defect' any more than your getting bothered by people misspelling your name is a defect. You could get used to it in time, and if you were raised by other fashion dummy-rejects, it would work in the reverse. It is, however, a self-dating flaw. In a few generations, as more transhumans are raised by things that are distinctly non-human in morphology, the uncanny valley WILL become more specialized, and would be better represented as a clique-specific stigma. But at 10 AF, mechanically, we just aren't there. It applies against ALMOST everyone who sees you. The other interesting note is that when dealing with entities not biologically wired to recognize the human form, such as aliens, the flaw STILL may apply, because it will clearly mark your station in the greater hierarchy. If you're dealing with a group of aliens, do you show the most respect to the one who has the most stuff, looks the most healthy, and everyone else thinks is beautiful, or the ugly, stumpy one on the outside of the group?
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Fri, 2010-07-09 14:02
crizh crizh's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
You are thinking more of the Biomorph Trait, Unattractive than Uncanny Valley. Uncanny Valley is neither poorly made nor obviously non-human. It is very, very human, so close in fact that the tiny differences make humans uncomfortable just as they would be uncomfortable around an animated corpse. You would actually suffer less prejudice if you looked less human. If you were sculpted to look like a Furry (two r's) or one of those blue things (?) from Avatar the average onlooker would be more pre-disposed to focus on the similarities you have to a normal human than on the differences.
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Fri, 2010-07-09 15:52
BlackHat BlackHat's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
crizh wrote:
... just as they would be uncomfortable around an animated corpse.
Or an animated mannequin. If I saw an animated corpse, I would be uncomfortable for all sorts of other reasons (like the use of vile necromancy!). Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley
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Fri, 2010-07-09 15:58
BlackHat BlackHat's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
Then again, according to this scientific-looking chart (from the same source), zombies do seem to be the pinnacle of Uncanny Valley-ness.
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Fri, 2010-07-09 19:47
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
crizh wrote:
You are thinking more of the Biomorph Trait, Unattractive than Uncanny Valley. Uncanny Valley is neither poorly made nor obviously non-human. It is very, very human, so close in fact that the tiny differences make humans uncomfortable just as they would be uncomfortable around an animated corpse. You would actually suffer less prejudice if you looked less human. If you were sculpted to look like a Furry (two r's) or one of those blue things (?) from Avatar the average onlooker would be more pre-disposed to focus on the similarities you have to a normal human than on the differences.
Exactly. Great examples of the Uncanny Valley today would be CG movies (Avatar and the Final Fantasy movies get this complaint a lot) and games with high-end graphics (The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion, and Call of Duty games have gotten this complaint). The uncanny valley is about looking [i]too[/i] human, without looking human enough to [i]be[/i] human. This is supposedly why lifelike prosthetics never became all that popular amongst amputees; they would rather a two-pronged hook hand than a fake hand that looks almost like a real hand. The remade are the example from within the setting. While they have decidedly human features, many of their upgrades and enhancements make them unsettling to some: longer more functional fingers, the elimination of all body hair, grayed skin, a larger cranium to house a larger brain, and a more efficient skeletal and muscular structure make the remade look "more human than human".
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Sat, 2010-07-10 04:05
Saerain Saerain's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
Precisely. On that note, I often notice that most of the traits people attribute to the Uncanny Valley are traits we sexually select for: improved symmetry, smoother skin, more even complexion... mannequins come up very often. I have trouble not developing a low opinion of people who have this reaction, I have to say. In fact, people who find beauty creepy (or less 'real'—or less human) kind of creep me out. Fancy that.
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Sat, 2010-07-10 07:09
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
Saerain wrote:
I have trouble not developing a low opinion of people who have this reaction, I have to say. In fact, people who find beauty creepy (or less 'real'—or less human) kind of creep me out. Fancy that.
It's the idea that you can have too much of it. Think porcelain dolls and over-photoshopped pictures of women. Some psychologists also believe that it might be an effect of knowing that something isn't real, and that the Uncanny Valley may not really exist at all. The reason that people were weirded out by the Navi in Avatar wasn't just the fact that they looked too human, but the fact that people knew that they were fictional creatures made of computer-generated imagery. The same is true with other CG movies... it creeps them out because they know it's actually CG. Some have proposed the test of releasing some CG material without informing anyone that it is CG, to see what the outcome would be.
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Sat, 2010-07-10 08:28
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
I have the opinion that its mainly due to a "perfected" pattern recognition system. I get weirded out by real people, if they start to move strangely (often when its done through CGI). In Spiderman movie1 - Spiderman jumped unnaturally weird several times, to the point I wondered, if the Films effect department even cared. I also think movies can suddenly look retarded when a "faulty" bullet-time hits or certain portrayals of "low gravity". Weird factor appear also when creatures use a "wrong" walking pattern, especially when its "faulty". Even if that was stick figures. It can also be affected by experience & familiarity. I read somewhere that many find real things "Unreal", because of a different portrayed on television. Example: Effects of impact on gunshot victims. Or unreal thing "real", like superman capable flight (some portrayals look realistic -when its not). This is related to Suspension of disbelief. The Suspension of disbelief, is weaken by the knowledge of the spectator. Many Cops say that they dislike the cop portrayal on TV -because of their own real experience. Same for many other professions, when they see a "bad" portrayal or a amateur pretending the craft. Im sure doctors accumulate a greater chasm of uncanny valley, than average Joe. But many also get a better (hardened) railing, while looking.
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Sat, 2010-07-10 09:23
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
Since we have the technology to make a synthmorph look so real he doesn't carry that penalty, clearly the level of 'realness' is relatively low (just comparing to whats on the market). Hence my reasoning. You got the human-looking body, but it's not human-looking enough and it makes you creepy, but it has the same in-game effects of being ugly.
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Sat, 2010-07-10 13:52
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Morph weirdness
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
Since we have the technology to make a synthmorph look so real he doesn't carry that penalty, clearly the level of 'realness' is relatively low (just comparing to whats on the market). Hence my reasoning. You got the human-looking body, but it's not human-looking enough and it makes you creepy, but it has the same in-game effects of being ugly.
Either that or the synthetic masks are intended to make you look natural, and don't go excessively into any other direction. The big thing to remember is that the Uncanny Valley isn't about looking like a human, but about having too many human traits while not having enough to look exactly like a human should. As I mentioned before, the remade have gray hairless skin, massive heads, long wiry fingers, tall lithe bodies, and an enhanced skeletal system which alter their appearance enough to make them off-putting to some. The characters in the Final Fantasy movies supposedly creeped people out because they had "porcelain doll flesh". It isn't just in physical features... unnatural movements can invoke the uncanny valley. Stephen Spielberg did this intentionally in the movie Abyss by filming one characters movements in reverse and playing the film backwards. In effect, the uncanny valley is the supposed psychological aversion that people have to things that are "not human enough". It's why so many people are weirded out by the appearance of prosthetic hands intended to look normal, porcelain dolls intended to look like children, and even retouched pageant photos of children. Do remember that the uncanny valley is still a largely untested hypothesis based on responses from people to lifelike robotics, and there are other hypotheses out there about why people react the way they do.
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